"MUHAMMADALINASIR" wrote:

"O wives of the Prophet, you are like no other women.

read the above part of the verse that u quoted urself :roll:

some rules were more applicable to them then us

e.g they werent allow to remarry after the Prophet (pbuh) passed away

Yes the above verse does refer to the Noble Wives. However it will be noted that the meaniong and application of that verse if forALL women, further in the verse there is the command for fasting and charity etc, no1 says that those are limited to the Noble Wives so also it is established by the ulama that this verese, although apparently addresing the Noble Wives, is infact applicable to ALL muslim women and this is further proved by the fact that the Sahabiyah enmass acted on this verse and implemented it. If it was only a specific ruling for a small number of women then the whole body of muslim women would not have acted on it.

"Med" wrote:

If it was only a specific ruling for a small number of women then the whole body of muslim women would not have acted on it.

from what I've seen

ur the only person who preaches this women must "stay at home" teaching :roll: :roll:

need to get your eyes tested lady and start to read some classical books. might help if you actually READ what the classical ulama have written, but hey its a free world, walk around blind for all i care (metaphorically, i dont pray that she goes blind just incase any nuts out there think im going off into badduas (curses for the posh non-indopak language lovers))

"Ali" wrote:

"O wives of the Prophet, you are like no other women. If you fear Allah do not be soft spoken, for it will tempt the man who has a disease in his heart. Speak in a dignified tone, stay in your homes, and do not display your beauty as in the days of ignorance. Observe prayer, give alms, and obey Allah and His Apostle. Members of the house of the Prophet! Allah only intends to rid you of your uncleanliness and to purify you completely. Women keep in mind the revelations of Allah and the words of wisdom which are recited in your houses. Benign is Allah; All-Aware." 33:32

well i think that pretty much somes it up..

gotta admit though, i gotta be one of those who got a disease in the heart.. women are just too nice.

Astagfirullah,

its true though if a girl speaks to you with a nice voice, it just melts ur heart.

"Med" wrote:

need to get your eyes tested lady and start to read some classical books. might help if you actually READ what the classical ulama have written, but hey its a free world, walk around blind for all i care (metaphorically, i dont pray that she goes blind just incase any nuts out there think im going off into badduas (curses for the posh non-indopak language lovers))

Make room for differences of opinion. Not all classical scholars preach that a women's voice is pardah or that they are not allowed to leave their homes.

And the same goes for those who do not agree with Brother Meds views.

but what about that verse?, okay im not a scholar, but have read several translations..

from my limited understanding of the Qur'an, I'm beginning to believe that it does suggest that women should maintain parda of their voice..

do the scholars who do not think the voice is parda have something to say regarding that verse..?

after all it could be a misinterpretation? - i dunno..

"khan" wrote:

but what about that verse?, okay im not a scholar, but have read several translations..

from my limited understanding of the Qur'an, I'm beginning to believe that it does suggest that women should maintain parda of their voice..

do the scholars who do not think the voice is parda have something to say regarding that verse..?

after all it could be a misinterpretation? - i dunno..

womens voice is NOT part of her awrah
she can speak in front of other men, she just needs to remain modesty just as men need to stay modest. women cant beautify their voice infront of men, or sing etc but just speaking is ok....
i have already posted before clearly stating that the womens voice is not part of her pardah or her awrah. she just has to use it properly.

some evidence to back this up:
[b]
From the Quran

A) Surah al-Qasas ayat 23-25[/b]

Wa lamma warada maa'a Madyana wajada alayhi ummat min an-nas yasquuna wa wajada min duni him imra'atyani tadhudan. Qala maa khatbukuma? Qalata laa nasqii hatta yusdi ar-ri'a wa abuna shaykh kabir. Fa saqaa la huma thumma tawallaa ila az-zilli fa qala Rabbi inni li maa anzalta ilayya min khayrin faqir. Fa ja'at hu ihda huma tamshi ala istihya. Qalat inna abi yad'uka li yajziyaka ajra maa saqayta la na...

And when he [Moses] came to the watering-place of Midian, he found at it a group of people taking water and he found as well as them two women holding back. He said, "What do you two have to say?" They said, "We cannot take water until the shepherds go away and our father is a very old man". So he took water for them two then he turned back to the shade and he said, "My Lord and Sustainer, surely I am one who needs what Thou mayest send to me of the good". Then one of the two (women) came towards him, walking shyly. She said, "My father invites you so that he may give you a wage for taking the water for us"...

[b]COMMENT:[/b] Here the future wife of the prophet Moses (alayhi salam) approaches him to speak with him even though they are not married yet. Surah an-Nisa ayah 26 says, "Allah clarifies for you, and guides you with, the sunnas of those who were before you". Unless abrogated by a clear statement elsewhere, the conduct of the past that Allah SWT cites as an example for us is still halal.
[b]
Surah an-Naml ayat 29-35[/b]

Qalat ya ayyuha al-mala'u inni ulqiya ilayya kitabun karim. Inna hu min Sulayman wa inna hu "Bismillahi ar-Rahmani ar-Rahimi. Alla ta'lu alayya wa'tuni muslimin". Qalat ya ayyuha al-mala'u aftuni fii amri maa kuntu qadi'at amran hatta tashhadun. Qalu nahnu ulu qawwat wa ulu ba'sin shadid; w'al-amru ilayki fanzuri maa dha ta'murin. Qalat inna al-muluk idha dakhalu qaryatan afsadu ha wa ja'alu a'izzata ahliha adhillah, wa ka dhalika yafa'lun. Wa inni mursilatun ilay him bi hadiyyatin fa naziratum bi ma yarji al-mursalun.

She [the queen of Sheba] said, "O chiefs, indeed a noble letter has been sent to me. It is from Solomon and it is, 'In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Gentle. Do not be arrogant against me but come to me as Muslims'. She said, "O chiefs, give me a fatwa in my affair. I do not decide on an affair except that you witness it". They said, "We are possessors of great strength and mighty force, but the affair is for you, so look to what you will command." She said, "Indeed, kings, when they enter a town, corrupt it and they make the mighty of its people the most abased, and that is what they do. But I am sending messengers to him with a gift and I wait to see how my messengers return."
[b]
COMMENT:[/b] Here the Queen of Sheba speaks with her shura council. Although at the time she was a pagan, she later accepted Islam (see Surah an-Naml ayah 44) and continued to be queen of her people. Therefore, she is also presented as a good model for Muslims.
[b]
C) Surah al-Mujadila ayah 1[/b]

Qad sami'Allahu qawla allati tujadiluka fi zawjiha wa tashtaki ilaAllah. Wa Allahu yasma'u tahawura kuma. InnaAllaha Sami'u Basir.

Indeed Allah heard the saying of she who disputed with you (O Prophet) in (the matter of) her spouse, and she calls upon Allah. And Allah hears the conversation of you two. Indeed Allah is the Hearing, the Seeing.

COMMENT: Here is an example from the lifetime of the Prophet (sAas). The woman spoke up in front of the Prophet (sAas) in order to bring a complaint. Rather than condemning her speech to a non-mahram man (i.e., the Prophet sAas), Allah SWT said that He heard her and was responding to her. If her speech in public to a non-mahram man were meant to be haram, why did Allah SWT not take this opportunity to forbid it?
[b]
D) Surah al-Ahzab ayah 53[/b]

...Wa idha sa'altuhunna mata'an fa s'aluhunna min wara'i hijab; dhalikum atharu li qulubikum wa qulubihinna...

...And when you ask [the wives of the Prophet] a thing, so ask them from beyond a curtain; that is purer for your hearts and for their hearts...

[b]COMMENT:[/b] Here are the wives of the Prophet (sAas), whom we know Surah al-Ahzab ayah 32 is addressed to. They are commanded to be behind a curtain when visitors to the Prophet (sAas) - who are described using the masculine plural - are asking them questions. A question by its nature requires an answer. Therefore, the wives of the Prophet (sAas) are put by this ayah in the position of speaking to non-mahram men in order to answer their questions. How then can it be haram for them to speak to non-mahram men?

[b]Hadiths[/b]

A) Sahih Bukhari Book 60 Number 277: Narrated Ibn Abu Mulaika: Ibn Abbas asked permission to visit Aisha before her death, and at that time she was in a state of agony. She then said. "I am afraid that he will praise me too much." And then it was said to her, "He is the cousin of Allah's Apostle and one of the prominent Muslims." Then she said, "Allow him to enter." (When he entered) he said, "How are you?" She replied, "I am all right if I fear (Allah)." Ibn Abbas said, "Allah willing, you are all right as you are the wife of Allah's Apostle and he did not marry any virgin except you and proof of your innocence was revealed from the Heaven." Later on Ibn Az-Zubair entered after him and Aisha said to him, "Ibn Abbas came to me and praised me greatly, but I wish that I was a thing forgotten and out of sight."

[b]COMMENT:[/b] Ibn Abbas (rAa) is definitely not a mahram for Aisha Umm al-Muminin (rAa); they are not even related by blood at all. If it were haram for ibn Abbas (rAa) as a non-mahram to hear Aisha's (rAa) voice because it is awra, how exactly is it that they were conversing? Moreover, this incident occurred near the time of Aisha's (rAa) death, which was long after the death of the Prophet (sAas). If speaking with non-mahram men was halal after the death of the Prophet (sAas), what power is there who can make it haram now? Also note that this hadith is one of many that proves that the wives of the Prophet (sAas) did indeed answer questions from non-mahram men (see note about Surah al-Ahzab ayah 53 above).

Sahih Bukhari Book 15 Number 88: Narrated Um Atiya: We were ordered to come out on the Day of 'Id and even bring out the virgin girls from their houses and menstruating women so that they might stand behind the men and say Takbir along with them and invoke Allah along with them and hope for the blessings of that day and for purification from sins.

[b]COMMENT: [/b]Here the women are specifically commanded to stand near the congregation and recite "Allahu akbar". How in the world could the Prophet (sAas) have commanded them to recite aloud if their voices were awra? This puts the question of saying "Subhan Allah" to interrupt the imam in perspective.

C) Sahih Bukhari Book 54 #515: Narrated Sa'd bin Abu Waqqas: Once Umar asked leave to see Allah's Apostle, in whose company there were some Qurayshi women, who were talking to him and asking him for more financial support, raising their voices. When Umar asked permission to enter, the women quickly screened themselves (fa badirna al-hijab). When Allah's Apostle admitted Umar, Allah's Apostle was smiling. Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! May Allah keep you happy always!". Allah's Apostle said, "I am astonished at these women here with me. As soon as they heard your voice, they quickly screened themselves". Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! You have more right to be feared by them". Then he addressed (the women) saying, "O enemies of yourselves! Do you fear me and not Allah's Apostle?" They replied, "Yes, for you are a fearful and fierce man as compared to Allah's Apostle". On that Allah's Apostle said (to Umar), "By Him in Whose hands my life is, when satan sees you taking a path, he takes a path other than yours."

[b]COMMENT: [/b]Here is Umar (rAa) conversing with some non-mahram women in front of the Prophet (sAas), and the Prophet (sAas) allowed it. If such conversation were haram, why did he not forbid it? For that matter, he himself was speaking with the women before Umar (rAa) arrived, and indeed the women were "raising their voices" and the Prophet did not forbid them!

D) Sahih Bukhari Book 62 Number 161: Narrated Anas bin Malik: An Ansari woman came to the Prophet and he took her aside and said (to her), "By Allah, you (Ansar) are the most beloved people to me."

[b]COMMENT:[/b] Here is another example of the Prophet (sAas) himself conversing with a woman. How could this have happened unless it was halal?!

E) Sahih Muslim Book 4 #1926: Jabir ibn Abdullah reported: I observed prayer with the Messenger of Allah on the Id day. He commenced with prayer before the sermon, without adhan or iqama. He then stood up leaning on Bilal and he commanded (them) to be on guard (against evil for the sake of) Allah and he exhorted (them) on obedience to Him, and he preached to the people and admonished them. He then walked on till he came to the women and preached to them and admonished them and encouraged them to give alms, for most of them are the fuel for Hell. A woman having a dark spot on her cheek stood up and said, "Why is it so, Messenger of Allah?". He said, "For you grumble often and show ingratitude to your spouses". And they began to give alms out of their ornaments such as their earrings and rings, which they threw in the cloak of Bilal.

[b]COMMENT:[/b] Here we see a woman getting up in the middle of a congregation to speak to the Prophet (sAas). If her voice were awra why did he not tell her to keep quiet? Instead, he answered her question.

F) Sahih Bukhari Book 13 Number 60: Narrated Sahl bin Sad: There was a woman amongst us who had a farm and she used to sow Silq (a kind of vegetable) on the edges of streams in her farm. On Fridays she used to pull out the Silq from its roots and put the roots in a utensil. Then she would put a handful of powdered barley over it and cook it. The roots of the Silq were a substitute for meat. After finishing the Jumua prayer we used to greet her and she would give us that food which we would eat with our hands, and because of that meal, we used to look forward to Friday.

[b]COMMENT:[/b] Just to round things out, here is an example of a male Sahabi stopping to exchange a few words with a non-mahram woman. Would the Sahaba (rAa) have been doing this if it were haram?? Also note that this hadith refutes those who say that men and women may not exchange salams.

Note: This is only a representative sample. There are many more hadiths that could be cited which show men and women conversing to take care of their business. These have been omitted for reasons of space.

[b]An interesting fatwa from Imam Malik[/b]

Muwatta Book 15, Number 15.5.16: Yahya reported...Malik was asked whether a man in the company of a woman who was reciting a passage of Qur'an requiring a prostration should prostrate with her, and he said, "He does not have to prostrate with her. The prostration is only obligatory for people who are with a man who is leading them. He recites the piece and they prostrate with him. Some one who hears a piece of Qur'an that requires a prostration being recited by a man who is not leading him in prayer does not have to do the prostration"
[b]
COMMENT: [/b]Imam Malik ibn Anas was the founder of the Maliki madhhab, one of the four major legal schools of Islam. Here he is dealing very clearly with a situation where a man is able to hear a woman reciting the Quran. How could this be if the woman's voice were awra? If that ruling were true, why did Imam Malik not say that the woman should not be reciting Quran where a man could hear her, or say that the man should move away so that he could not hear her? Note that some scholars who do not say the female voice is awra nonetheless claim that women are not to recite the Quran aloud near men. The fatwa of Imam Malik clearly refutes this claim.

[b]Conclusion[/b]

It should be beyond obvious from the dalils presented above that a woman's voice is not awra and that she may speak with non-mahram men whatever is necessary to complete her business. It is really quite astonishing how something that is reported by many Sahaba (rAa) to be halal (i.e., woman's speech in front of non-mahram men) is declared by some people to be haram on the basis of a Quranic ayah and a hadith that do not even state a ban in the first place!! Let's use some common sense, people! Do not put your opinions in place of the Sunna. If the Prophet (sAas) allowed women to speak in front of non-mahram men, then it is HALAL. Period. Do not innovate obligations in the deen (such as women having to be silent) that Allah SWT and His Messenger did not put there.

Note: It is true that women should keep their conversations with non-mahram men business-like and that they should make efforts so that their voices are not alluring. However, to say that a woman's voice can never be heard at all is, I feel, extreme and not demanded by Islam. Even some very conservative scholars say that the female voice is not awra.

What's Pardah?

whats awrah? - but are we in agreement that the voice should maintain parda?

pardah.. i think is 'to cover'?

"Constantine" wrote:

What's Pardah?

Covering/modesty etc

Hijaab (the head scarf) is "pardah".

In Islam the entire body of a woman must remain covered in front of men she can marry- apart from her hands, feet and face. The rest of her body must be in "pardah".

Her voice is not one of the things that she is required to hide/cover.

Some may disagree.

Thanks MuslimSister

"TheRevivalEditor" wrote:

Note: It is true that women should keep their conversations with non-mahram men business-like and that they should make efforts so that their voices are not alluring. However, to say that a woman's voice can never be heard at all is, I feel, extreme and not demanded by Islam. Even some very conservative scholars say that the female voice is not awra.

Good post.

I’m sure every Muslim believes that women shouldn’t speak to men in a flirty, giggly, attractive tone…

However, the view that they mustn’t speak at all to men is very impractical.

i still don't get it editor bro..?

parda doesn't mean to remain mute..

the stuff that u posted gives examples of women speaking.. dont think anyone is disputing the right of a woman to speak.

whats ur comment on the verse that 'in my very limited understanding' suggests that a woman should 'disguise' her voice with non related men?

So, can men's voices not be pleasing to a woman? Should men also only speak when absolutely necessary and in a harsh, unfriendly tone?

Perhaps we should all take mime classes in primary school

lol true!

its a weak arguement used by weak men

its a voice for gods sake, if you could control yourself it wouldnt turn you on!

Ali, I am sure you agree that self-control is variable. For some people they remain controlled in every situation with the exception of sex and even then, you have to learn control. For others it goes out the window the minute they see an ankle. And to learn and maintain that control is surely incumbent on everyone. Homosexuals included.

"Ali" wrote:

Plzz...Dont try to act weird,i know you are also one of us...unless,of course, you have no interest in women.

i am most certainly not one of you!!

an interest in woman? if that means trying it on with every1 woman i see...no i dont

i agree with one-hundred-and-Eiggggggggggghhhhhhhhty!!

i mean 100

chill.

this is how it is, your on the streets minding your own business..

along come a girl, covered up, u cant tell much about her.. she's walking straight, u carry on minding your own business,

then comes along another girl, you have the first glimpse and you see a lot of flesh, you put your head down and say to urself i shouldn't admire, [edit-stickin to topic :)] then she answers her mobile and u hear lovely voice, saying lovely things, the nexts few seconds are the most difficult,

do you

a) keep looking down, fight your thoughts, until shes out of sight

b) or give yourself reasons to look, sometimes accidently- but truthfully with intent, and feel attracted

"Aphrodite" wrote:

So, can men's voices not be pleasing to a woman? Should men also only speak when absolutely necessary and in a harsh, unfriendly tone?

good point

u get some "weak women who also have diseases in their heart" and they too get turned on my deep manly voices

so men should also keep their voices in pardah

Yeh islam does give fairness and guys should talk in a decent manner to, btw it makes me think how weak some guys are if they find a womens voice attractive!

boys are still thinking.. is it a) or is it b) lol

Khuda Hafez.

"angel" wrote:

Yeh islam does give fairness and guys should talk in a decent manner to, !

Good point.

Craig David is famous for his “smooth” attractive voice.

So with whom does the fault lie? The “weak/diseased” girls who are infatuated with him because of his voice? Or is he to blame for not keeping his voice in “pardah”?

Craig David is a muslim?

Men should just shoosh and speak as and when necessary.

Yeah, I've had too much coffee tonight...

"khan" wrote:

boys are still thinking.. is it a) or is it b) lol

Khuda Hafez.

ummm u have lost me, whats a) and whats b) :?