err, guys... u might want to take this discussion to another thread...?

"yuit" wrote:

Good post, I agree. But it just my opinion that as muslims, the bengali and pakistani share a special bond between each other, for this bond to increase, it my personal opinion that what has happen in the past stay in the past, as does the politic. This is how i kept a 20 year friendship with alot of my bengali mates. Basically what i saying, is moving the pakistani's and bengali's away from their nationailist roots, by the concept of brotherhood of islam.

I know it’s a generalisation - and I don’t mean you personally - but Pakistanis are quite nationalistic, just think how many wave around national flags at Eid. Now if the horrific events of 1971 were well known by Pakistanis perhaps the nationalism would not be so stark.

Pakistani governments have covered up the tragic events and most pakistani's appear to be totally oblivious to this genocide, which fuels nationalism. The only way to counter this is educating people about what happened and making sure it can never occur again. That means talking about it rather than ignoring it, Pakistan admitting guilt and putting the guilty on trial.

"Augustus" wrote:

"latifah" wrote:

I understand where Shazan is coming from on this issue.

The same happens in many counties, like in Serbia where most people either deny any war crimes happened or try and brush it under the carpet and refuse to discuss it at all. That causes great resentment and animosity.

In regards to 1971, the terrible events should be taught in Pakistani schools as a prime example of what happens when nationalism and hatred goes out of control, it should not be a taboo subject that people are not prepared to talk about.

How much does education make a difference?

To compare to the postwar South for a very long time it looked like it would finally destroy racism - but organizations like the Klan have adapted and consequently are still powerful. Now they attempt a scholarly approach, arguing they are an organization that looks out for the interests of white people, who have been forgotten in Federal programs like affirmative action - this is the David Duke approach. On top of that we have revisionist histories like "Gone with the Wind" which attempt to erase if not explain the racism of the South. It's dangerous and it's found an audience - so it seems like this all comes from somewhere else.

We had show trials, anti segregation education - integration, but the racists adapted.

And Bosnia is worse off since you mentioned all the intellectuals fled before the war, and a new breed of "intellectual" creeped up to feed the population intellectual racism.

I think you mentioned a year or so ago that the Serb hatred is growing back in Serbia - or never left.

I am not familiar with Pakistan/Bangladesh - but I suspect that similar dynamics are at work.

So understanding the need for Justice - and certainly not saying that Trials or Education should be stepped aside, what effective tools do either of you see to preventing this from happening again?

People are getting married again in Bosnia - That's hopeful.

Education is very important thing but so is justice and without the guilty paying for their crimes the animosity will not go away. In Bosnia the main problem is that people guilty of terrible crimes are walking the streets with no danger of arrest,, which is similar to the case of Pakistani soldiers who have never faced any penalty for their shocking behaviour.

There will always be people who refuse to believe their own kind would do anything wrong, Serbia has a lot of those people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4741682.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4731646.stm
http://www.bosnia.org.uk/bosrep/report_format.cfm?articleid=3027&reporti...

It's hard to forgive people who deny any crimes and call the victims a bunch of liars.

But things have imporved in Bosnia alot and their are some signs of improvment so I hope the next few generations will be able to move on. Hope lies in the youth, and their marriages.

Those articles are disquieting. Especially the one about the "Great Man" being honored by an entire village. I don't know if this is the case with the Balkans but here I noticed there is a direct correlation between the Klan and location. In the major cities of the South they are pariahs - and are absolutely no welcome... but when you move out into these extremely secluded little villages they have their rallies in town hall. Not so much in the Carolinas - but Alabama through Mississippi and Louisianna it's not uncommon to see townspeople celebrating murderers who walk completely free.

We haven't been able to find a way around that - mostly because people are too afraid to go in and set them straight.

What gets me is we're watching it happen in the Balkans, we have NATO and UN troops on the ground as well as an army of reporters telling us this and nothing is happening. It seems like they think "oh well arrest him put him on trial and these villagers will see it our way" - unless I misread... they aren't actually [i]doing[/i] anything about this village are they?

"latifah" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

Good post, I agree. But it just my opinion that as muslims, the bengali and pakistani share a special bond between each other, for this bond to increase, it my personal opinion that what has happen in the past stay in the past, as does the politic. This is how i kept a 20 year friendship with alot of my bengali mates. Basically what i saying, is moving the pakistani's and bengali's away from their nationailist roots, by the concept of brotherhood of islam.

I know it’s a generalisation - and I don’t mean you personally - but Pakistanis are quite nationalistic, just think how many wave around national flags at Eid. Now if the horrific events of 1971 were well known by Pakistanis perhaps the nationalism would not be so stark.

Pakistani governments have covered up the tragic events and most pakistani's appear to be totally oblivious to this genocide, which fuels nationalism. The only way to counter this is educating people about what happened and making sure it can never occur again. That means talking about it, Pakistan admitting guilt and putting the guilty on trial.

I don't know, where nationalism is concern it hard to educate people. These people can and will find justification for any action for poltical gain. Because whatever has happen in the past between Bengaldesh and Pakistan, their always remain some type of bond between the people and that has come from Islam. It my personal opinion only by streghtening this bond which hopefully in the long run will eraducate nationalism can will stop this type of genocide again.

"yuit" wrote:

I don't know, where nationalism is concern it hard to educate people. These people can and will find justification for any action for poltical gain. Because whatever has happen in the past between Bengaldesh and Pakistan, their always remain some type of bond between the people and that has come from Islam. It my personal opinion only by streghtening this bond which hopefully in the long run will eraducate nationalism can will stop this type of genocide again.

All ships are sailing in the same direction... Shazan and Latifah aren't saying this to divide Pakistanis and Bengalis. They are saying that in order for healing to occur between the two Pakistan must show a commitment to brotherhood - by recognizing its mideeds and bringing those culpable to prosecution.

This is genocide... not a gaffe and its easy to see why Bengalis would find offense at the idea they should just forget it for the sake of the muslim brotherhood so inhumanly denied to them in the first place. Especially when an apology and positive steps to demonstrate the bond of brotherhood still exists are so easy to accomplish.

It's not so much to ask Pakistan to admit this was genocide - apologize and diligently pursue those responsible.

"Augustus" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

I don't know, where nationalism is concern it hard to educate people. These people can and will find justification for any action for poltical gain. Because whatever has happen in the past between Bengaldesh and Pakistan, their always remain some type of bond between the people and that has come from Islam. It my personal opinion only by streghtening this bond which hopefully in the long run will eraducate nationalism can will stop this type of genocide again.

All ships are sailing in the same direction... Shazan and Latifah aren't saying this to divide Pakistanis and Bengalis. They are saying that in order for healing to occur between the two Pakistan must show a commitment to brotherhood - by recognizing its mideeds and bringing those culpable to prosecution.

This is genocide... not a gaffe and its easy to see why Bengalis would find offense at the idea they should just forget it for the sake of the muslim brotherhood so inhumanly denied to them in the first place. Especially when an apology and positive steps to demonstrate the bond of brotherhood still exists are so easy to accomplish.

It's not so much to ask Pakistan to admit this was genocide - apologize and diligently pursue those responsible.

True but if you look at poltically in Pakistan. You realise there is little people can do, you first need to have a government and a figurehead represented by the people, before anything can be done, plus while you got a president who in charge of the miltary as well as the country there ain't much room to do anything.

It my thinking with the present generation who the majority don't know anything about being pakistani or Bengali or it past it better to build bridges on the grounds of a common understanding so the root of nationalism don't come into existence, in this case being Islam.

lol i'm out of my element. I am neither Pakistani nor Bengali and i'm certainly not a muslim. So I have no business talking about muslim brotherhood, or how Pakistanis and Bengalis interact.

But genocide concerns me - as much as anyone else. And while I certainly differ to your knowledge of Islam and the politics of Pakistan, I will say that traditionally crimes only truly disappear when one party accepts guilt and another party then extends forgiveness.

Otherwise the phantom of hatred will simply hide in the walls for a little while and surface when it's not expected.

So for what it's worth, and eschewing the various religious and political implications of Shazan and Latifah's position, they still hold the day from the angle of fundamental Justice.

"*DUST*" wrote:

err, guys... u might want to take this discussion to another thread...?

"*DUST*" wrote:

"*DUST*" wrote:

err, guys... u might want to take this discussion to another thread...?

or not...

Sorry, I tried if it's any consolation.

But just before I posted my thread I thought it was slightly disrespectful to just call it "Genocide" and lump the topics into one big thread.

So I thought about dividing it into the 3 different cultural hate crimes we were talking about... but I didn't think that Southern Racism would recieve much interest, the Bengali thread went sour last time and I didn't want to burden Latifah with a Balkans thread again.

Perhaps the mods can best determined what to do here.

Just to sour this topica little more...

Does anyone know what was the ethnicity of the Pakistan Army in East Pakistan before the breakup?

I have recently come across some info which sugests Pakistan started rotation of armed forces AFTER the breakup of Pakistan. before, most of the forces patrolled their localities.

Some of the armed forces were complicit in the breakup of Bangladesh from pakistan, so rotation, and mixing was started.

So anyone know?

(The leadership would still be to blame either way)

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

You’ve answered your own question, today’s Pakistan doesn’t even recognise the genocide ever happened nor has offered any apology-

when u speak of "pakistan" who do u mean?

the average ignorant Paki of the street? the paki elders? the Paki PM or the Paki goverment?

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

:?:

when u speak of "pakistan" who do u mean?

the average ignorant Paki of the street? the paki elders? the Paki PM or the Paki goverment?

Whatever definition I give, I will be condemned as a racist.

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

Whatever definition I give, I will be condemned as a racist.

dont assume

and IMO ur not a racist

-i'd be quick to condemn a nation/culture or even an entire gender based on the ruthless actions of a few frm the group

its also somwhat understandable how ALL muslims are considered terrorists

like i said-i understand ur sentiments

Well this is going to be interesting

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

-i'd be quick to condemn a nation/culture or even an entire gender based on the ruthless actions of a few frm the group

its also somwhat understandable how ALL muslims are considered terrorists

Read up a little more on the tragic events of 1971 and make your own mind up- member’s of this forum have admitted to me the inferior complexity issue between Bengalis and Pakistani still exist today.

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

-i'd be quick to condemn a nation/culture or even an entire gender based on the ruthless actions of a few frm the group

its also somwhat understandable how ALL muslims are considered terrorists

Read up a little more on the tragic events of 1971 and make your own mind up- member’s of this forum have admitted to me the inferior complexity issue between Bengalis and Pakistani still exist today.

what wud that change?

the first time i heard about this tragic event is frm u-I don't know u but since u feel so passionatly about it-

I believe what u say

I, as a Paki know that SOME paki's AND bengali's have an inferiority complex

but personally have not encountered Pakis' looking down at benagli's

but i accpet that it may happen

and like i said before-if u do hate all Paki's cos of the past

i wudnt blame u

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

and like i said before-if u do hate all Paki's cos of the past

i wudnt blame u

Unless I come across those pusillanimous characters who forefathers and fathers served in the Pakistan Army and more specifically in Bangladesh- you have your answer.

and Pakistani call me Bengali and Bengali’s call me Pakistani

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

-i'd be quick to condemn a nation/culture or even an entire gender based on the ruthless actions of a few frm the group

its also somwhat understandable how ALL muslims are considered terrorists

Read up a little more on the tragic events of 1971 and make your own mind up- member’s of this forum have admitted to me the inferior complexity issue between Bengalis and Pakistani still exist today.

To be honest, i was reading the thread starting on the subject and what i read was alot of people, not letting the past become a issue for today, both Bengali's and Pakistani's. Yes there is some conflict that exist in the elder. The younger lot are conflicting more on the street reputation level, not nationality IMO. Too be honest alot of people are innocent on the issue and the last thing people need is pumping people up, talking about how Pakistani soldier have been raping their bengali's sister, i personally can not see how that can help the situation. Rap is a horrible thing, but it has affect women of all nationaility, using it for political gain is digusting IMO, not saying u are, just stating a fact.

I say Alhumduillah the genocide issn;t a issue for alot of muslims today and nor should it be. Because i can tell if people let the past stoke up in a fire in their heart, we be back where we were once. It all good asking for justice and i agree it needed, but it has to be directed at the right people.

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

Unless I come across those pusillanimous characters who forefathers and fathers served in the Pakistan Army and more specifically in Bangladesh- you have your answer.

no i dont have my answer

are u saying that you'd hate or take revenge out on the grandchildren of the people who commited the 1971 atrocities?

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

no i dont have my answer

are u saying that you'd hate or take revenge out on the grandchildren of the people who commited the 1971 atrocities?

Read my post again..............

I wonder what your feeling's would be if Bangladesi massacred millions of Pakistani in Pakistan?

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

I wonder what your feeling's would be if Bangladesi massacred millions of Pakistani in Pakistan?

i don't know.

i don't have a strong emotional attachment with Pakistan

but i do know that I'd hate anyone who hurt my loved ones in anyway.

but my hate would be personal-and directed for e.g I'd never hate the mother of my enemy

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

no i dont have my answer

are u saying that you'd hate or take revenge out on the grandchildren of the people who commited the 1971 atrocities?

Read my post again..............

I wonder what your feeling's would be if Bangladesi massacred millions of Pakistani in Pakistan?

I personally would feel it like i would knowing that Bengali have died. Bro you seem the one who seem to have the nationalist tendency from where i standing. Asking for justice is one thing, hating is another.

"yuit" wrote:

I say Alhumduillah the genocide issn;t a issue for alot of muslims today and nor should it be. .

Your wrong- It's a dead and buried issue concerning Pakistan, even if victims of 1971 don’t get justice in this lifetime which they are fully entitled to- I have enough faith that such savages have only one place in the hereafter.

Tell, what has changed in Pakistan? Their nationalist ideology still calls for the destruction of India and unify Kashmir with Pakistan- sound like 1971 all over.

"yuit" wrote:

I personally would feel it like i would knowing that Bengali have died. Bro you seem the one who seem to have the nationalist tendency from where i standing. Asking for justice is one thing, hating is another.

Nationalist tendency??? Another way of debunking my arguments, why should any God fearing believer shout war crimes or spew out “injustice” at the west, while Pakistan a Muslim country with a Muslim majority is unwilling to prosecute open war criminals

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

I say Alhumduillah the genocide issn;t a issue for alot of muslims today and nor should it be. .

Your wrong- It's a dead and buried issue concerning Pakistan, even if victims of 1971 don’t get justice in this lifetime which they are fully entitled to- I have enough faith that such savages have only one place in the hereafter.

Tell, what has changed in Pakistan? Their nationalist ideology still calls for the destruction of India and unify Kashmir with Pakistan- sound like 1971 all over.

Bro what come of people, only Allah swt knows.

On ur other question as a person who orginate from kashmir, we want justice like anyone esle, but it doesn't include hating a whole group of people or wanted people to pay for yesterday crimes, we more concern with the here and now. .

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

i don't know.

i don't have a strong emotional attachment with Pakistan

On the authority of the father of Abu Umamah bib Sahl. The Prophet (pbuh) said:

“Whoever stands by watching a believer being humiliated without helping him, although he is able to do so, Allah will humiliate him in front of everybody on the Day of Judgment”

And

The Prophet Muhammad(saw) has said to us; that "he/she who wakes up in the morning without a concern for his/her fellow brother/sister that person is not a Muslim"

"yuit" wrote:

Bro what come of people, only Allah swt knows.

On ur other question as a person who orginate from kashmir, we want justice like anyone esle, but it doesn't include hating a whole group of people or wanted people to pay for yesterday crimes, we more concern with the here and now. .

Who is vilifying a whole nation?

Don’t amount speaking the truth about your country bloody history as an attacked on every Pakistani.

Who should be held to account? A QUESTION, which is unanswered in Pakistan

"(*_Shazan" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

I personally would feel it like i would knowing that Bengali have died. Bro you seem the one who seem to have the nationalist tendency from where i standing. Asking for justice is one thing, hating is another.

Nationalist tendency??? Another way of debunking my arguments, why should any God fearing believer shout war crimes or spew out “injustice” at the west, while Pakistan a Muslim country with a Muslim majority is unwilling to prosecute open war criminals

No one trying to debunk ur agrument, at the end of the day your in the right asking for justice, no one is doubting that, all i saying is how by trying to make a whole genration of present pakistani accountable for the act of past generation, is it going to help ur cause? At the end of the day this hadith say it all IMO, i jut showing concern for today muslims as we are brother of each others. U just need to be more careful how u phrase things IMO.

The Prophet Muhammad(saw) has said to us; that "he/she who wakes up in the morning without a concern for his/her fellow brother/sister that person is not a Muslim"

"yuit" wrote:

No one trying to debunk ur agrument, at the end of the day your in the right asking for justice, no one is doubting that, all i saying is how by trying to make a whole genration of present pakistani accountable for the act of past generation, is it going to help ur cause? At the end of the day this hadith say it all IMO, i jut showing concern for today muslims as we are brother of each others. U just need to be more careful how u phrase things IMO.

We are brothers? You feel no animosity towards me? Let’s shake hands and wave a Pakistani flag