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i DIDNT say they should be stopped.
I said they should be discouraged. pls pls pls read what i rite.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
why didnt hazrat abu bakr, hazrat usman, hazrat ali stop the women going to the mosques? why didnt Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain stop the Muslim WOMEN?
Did Imam Asqalani, suyuti, ibn taymiya, imam nawawi, ibn kathir, ibn jawzi, mullah ali qari, shaykh abdul qadir jilani, imam abu hanifa, imam shafi, imam malik, imam hanbal stop women going to the mosque, or advise them not to go or asked them better to stay at home or DISCOURAGED them!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????????
TELL ME! :o
....exactly!!!!!!
obvioulsy they TOO knew that application of that hadith better then a medieviliest :roll:
NOBODY CAN DISCOURAGE THEM EITHER, THEY SHOULD ENCOURAGE THEM TO ATTEND THE MEHFILS, LECTURES, CLASSES AND GET INVOLVED IN THE MOSQUE AND CREATE FACILITIES FOR SISTERS....
plz wait while i search the relavent books
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
LOL you know many tablighi sisters.. hmm.. okay they must be in your family circle, as tablighi's are very very strict on free mixing. Women who are actively involved in Tabligh will maintain Hijab even in front of their brother in laws.
You see brother, you've just demonstrated how little you know about Tabligh. A big sheikh who comes to the mosque for example,.. A tablighi woman would not attend without prior knowledge of who that sheikh was and what group or party or ideology he represents. Without prior authorisation from the Ulema the tablighi men would also be cautious.
Okay about lady scholars, there are many but as you have mentioned not enough.. same way there arnt enough men scholars out there either.
Alim courses are done at the madrasah, there are several Tablighi families on my road, one family has 4 daughters whose faces I have not seen for the past 5 years as they're in full hijab. A couple of them are studying at a madrasah for women here in the UK.
My cuz from desh comes from a very strict tablighi family, she studying to Teach the Qur'an at a womans madrasah.
Now for you to imply Tablighi women arnt educated is silly bruv.
I really don't understand your hatred for Tabligh, clearly you know very little about the movement.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
BRO , I KNOw tablighi bros up and down their country, i know tablughi sisters from uni, some who hav econtacte dme through the revival.. and yes they do speak to men, astagfirullah...and no they dont wear niqab- astagfirullah.....
some are educated...not all..
i know more about tablighi jamaat than you think...i dont hate the organisation, i just disagree with a few issues..
i have sat with tablighi scholars and discussed many issues with them..agree and disagree on some issues....
i have personal friends from tablighi jamaat, and discuss many issues with them...
so i know about TJ more than you think...
you make it sound as if tablighi jamaat is the best since sliced bread! its not! it has good points and bad.. but you cant accept that i'm afraid.
well i dont believe you bro, the sisters you have met may come from tablighi families, but they cant call themselves tablighi if they aint covering themselves appropriately.
about educated, some of the ones out of those who you met, who aint even propper tablighis are educated but not all.. ok
u know very little about the organisation bro, its quite transparent in your posts. i mean to make statements that Tablighi mens treatment of women are damaging to islam says it all.
just outa interest which tablighi scholar have you sat down with?
no i aint saying it the best thing since sliced bread editor bro.
Bro we've discussed a lot of issues, you know me, I just can't stand it when someone makes accusations against an organisation wether its Tabligh, YMO, Minhaj, HT, Al Muj.. whatever.. based on lies told by people, organisations and scholars.
thats how i am. i'll defend anyone who been wrongfully accused of something they not guilty for.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
thank you for calling me a liar.
i'll stay quiet then
1. Hadrat [b]Aatikah (radhiallahu anha)[/b], the wife of Hadhrat Umar (radhiallahu anhu), explaining her reason for having discontinued her practice of attending the Musjid said: [b]"We used to come out when people were yet people."[/b] [color=red](LaamiudDuraari)[/color]
2. Amr Shaibaani narrates that he saw [b]Hadhrat Abdullah Bin Mas'ud [/b](radhiallahu anhu) expelling women from the Musjid on the Day of Juma'[color=red].(Majmauz Zawaaid).[/color]
3. In [color=red]An-Nihaayah[/color] it is said;
[b]"Our Fuqaha, base the illegality of women attending the Musjid on the prohibition declared by Hadhrat Umar Ibn Khattaab (radhiallahu anhu). When he detected the mischief (fitnah which women had started to introduce) he forbade their emergence. "[/b]
4. [color=red]Arabi[/color] in his Sharhut Tirmizi says:
"[b]Sufyaan Thauri [/b]said: 'It is [b]forbidden for women to emerge from their homes[/b]. [u]Ibn Mas'ud[/u] (radhiallahuanhu) said that a [u]woman is an object of concealment [/u]and [u]when she emerges shaitaan lays in wait (to create fitnah). Imam Abu Hanifah and Ibn Mubarak also stated this ."[/u]"Our Fuqaha have said so (i.e. it is not permissible for women to attend the Musjid) because in their emer gence is the danger of fitnah."
5. Hadhrat [b]Ibrahim Nakhi [/b](rahmatullah alayh) prevented his womenfolk from attending the Musjid. In Nailul Autaar, the following narration appears:
"It (females going for the Eid Salaat) is forbidden. This has been narrated by Tirmizi on the authority of Thauri, Ibn Mubaarak. And, this is the view of Imaani Maalik Abu Yusuf. Ibn Qudaamah narrated it on the authority of Nakhi and Yahya Ibn Saeed Ansaari. "
6. [b]Qudoori.[/b]
"[color=red]It is forbidden for women to be present for Jama' (i.e. Salaat in the Musjid) However, old women may come for Fajr, Maghrib and Isha according to Imaam Abu Hanifah. According to Imaam Abu Yusuf and Imaam Muhammad it is permissible for them for all Salaats."[/color]
7. The [b]Shaaf'i [/b]view is well stated by [b]Sheikh Sulaiman Bujairmi [/b](rahmatullah alayh) in [u]Tuhfatul Habeeb Ala Sharhil Khateeb:[/u]
"[color=red]Women should not attend {the Musjid) whether they are young or old for Jamaa-at because of the appearance of corruption ............. Today the Fatwa is on total
prohibition in all the Salaat."[/color]
8. [b]Fataawal Kubra [/b]of [b]Ibn Hajar Haitami [/b](rahmatullah alayhi, an authority in the Shaaf'i Math -hab:
[color=red]"... the [u]statement of Ghazaali in Ihyaaul Uloom:[/u] 'It is obligatory to prohibit women from attending the Musjid for Salaat, for sessions of knowledge and for Thikr when there is the danger of fitnah as a result of them. Verily, Aishah (radhiallahu anha) forbade them. It was then said to her: Verily, Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) did not forbid them from Jamaa-at She replied. If Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) knew what the women have introduced after him, then most certainly, he would have prevented them.' Agreeing with it is the statement of Ibn Khuzaimah who is among our senior authorities: 'The Salaat of a woman in her home is superior to herSalaat in the Musjid of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam). [/color]
9. [color=red]"There is unanimity regarding the prohibition of wo men going to the Musjid, Eid Salaat and visiting the graves because of the absence of the conditions of permissibility which had existed during the age of Nabi (sallallahu alay hi wasallam)[/color]............... This has been stat ed by [color=red]Shaikh Taqiuddin Al Husni [/color]and Shaikh [color=red]Alaauddin Muhammad Al Bukhaari [/color]who were two great Imaams among the Mutaqaddimeen (the early Fuqaha)."
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
but u still havnt stated what all of them ^^^^ said about this issue?
I do not have the resources to look into the rulings of each of the above scholars. But it should be noted that the view of Imam Abu Haneefah and Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam Muhammad have been included.
For hanafis that should be enough viz that Imam Abu Haneefah permitted only old women to attend fajr, maghrib and isha. The reason contained in the books is that these salah take place at times when darkness prevails to a great extent hence they (old women) are allowed to attend, but the two full day time salah (dhuhr/asr) are not open even for the olde women.
Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam Muhammad have given permission for old women to attend ALL five salah but not permitted young women. For a muqallid hanafi the views of these three scholars is enough. Even if one was being lenient he could only go so far as saying women who are elderly can attend the masjid because that is how far Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam Muhammad Sahibaan went.
Thank you.
Also there is no need for me to go and search every opinon. As a muqallid when the three most senior Aimmah of my madhab have declared on an issue I dont need to go fishing in other madhahib to make a fatwah which sits well weith my personl opinion, rather i defer to the higher authority and more expert legal opinions offered by the three most senior member of Hanafi Fiqh.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
sorry bro, didnt mean for it to come out like dat..
it was wrong of me to say dat.
peace
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
once again ur not taking the differences in time into consideration
these days Isha is almost at 10.00 does it make sense for an elderly frail lady to walk in the streets in the dark in the UK?
if a lady did that in my town she'd get mugged and beaten up
so COMMON sense tells u that ladies should read the prayers in the daylight and avoid reading the ones in the dark
the Imams time was diff
gotta say medieval that was a very well put together compilation of rulings on the matter of women and Mosques.
definatly something to look into further to verify sources inshAllah.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
thats all very well but plz provide a legal opinion.
Bring me one hanafi Alim who dares to contradict the combined view of Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Abu Yusuf, Imam Muhammad alayhim rahmah.
Yes the time is different. I would say the time now is even worse. The fitnah is everywhere now.In that time people were far better than they are now, yes times have changed but the way i see it the time has got even worse so the rulings must be implemented even more.
Sorry but thats life ladies.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
shukriya muhtaram khan sahib, shukriya.
Lol. Atleast som1 has the sense to try to understand what hsa been said. May ALLAH Almighty give us ALL the ability to understand what has been written and to act on what has today been learnt. ameen thumma ameen.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
cool
so I take it u have no issues with ur elderly gran walking down the streets of Manhcester at 10.00 at night to read her Isha
cos u think the Imams Fatwa's can never be contradicted
despite the fact they lived in a diff area and time-
its ur life-feel free to implement the rulings in ur family even more
er hang on one minute.
The ruling pertained to PERMISSIBILTY. No1 said anything about it being obligatory. So yes it is permitted for my grandmother to walk to the masjid at 10 but becuase it might not be safe she should stay at home or get dropped off. But the conditions preventing young women exist even more today. There has been no change in their permission or otherwise.
See the situation may have changed for old women in UK becuase it may no longer be safe, the respect for elderly does not exist. But that doesnt mean the conditions for young women have alos changed. No their impermissibilty still stands and if an old woman can go with safety to masjid then nothing wrong with it even though it is BETTER for her to pray at home.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
the ruling has changed
in my town I'd NEVER EVER allow my gran to leave my house at 10 at night to read her isha
even if it IS "permisible"-
Y do ppl not answer questions and be selective.
Please provide one hanafi alim who goes against the combined might of Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Abu Yusuf, Imam Muhammad and who says that their ruling is no longer valid. Its a simple request.
If there is no alim willing to go against that opinion or if u cant furnish one opinino then i can say that the ruling of hanafi madhab remains on the opinion given by the early three scholars and the hanafi fatwa MUST necessarily still be on those lines IF no alim has refuted or said that the earlier ruling is no longer valid.
I cant accept your simply saying the time is different or its common snese that women can go to mosque now. I have kindly provided you with rulings from our Elders inf Hanafi madhab, pls provide evidence that this ruling is no longer standing. Your personal objection has no shari standing, nor does any1 elses, until it is proved that a major alim of hanafi fiqh declares the ruling to be null and void and it is even not enough for one rogue scholar to disagree, rather because we have an ijma from the 3 founding scholars of hanafi fiqh regarding impermissibilty of young womens mosque attendance, it must be a MAJOR movement within the hanafi school to pose a challenge to the earlier ruling.
Again provide some proof from ULAMA not laypersons, like myself and urself, that the ruling according to hanafi madhab is different to the rulings given by our respected elders - Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Abu Yusuf, Imam Muhammad alayhim rahmah.
Note: Personal opinion of laypersons, or rogue scholars hold no weight. For the ruling to stand changed it must be proved that a VAST majority of hanafi ulama today have ruled that in hanafi madhab the previous impermissibility has been abrogated and young women are once again permitted to attend masjid.
I await with great interest your response.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
so like to get a better understanding,.. I'm guessing these rulings were given back in the days, in an islamic state..
the reason behind the rulings were to do with fitnah and corruption..
nah I'm in agreement, times have changed, theres more fitnah about, theres much more corruption..
after all the uk aint an islamic state, therefore I do not see any reason why there should be any change in the rulings.
Just out of interest, what do the scholars of today say, okay we know what the Tablighi Ulema say on the matter, which is not very different of those you mentioned..
But what rulings do women use today to justify there attendance at the mosque?
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
Brother MashaALLAH.
The issue is clear, my brother AbdusSalam was little too emotional for these type of people. Alhamdulillah I was warned of the situation here and have modelled myself on the way discussion is held in this forum.
Hence ALL can see I have backed up my argument and in a calm and good manner asked for a refutation or an argument challenging the validity of my stance. Alhamdulillah I hope ALLAH will put guidance in ALL our hearts and make this a means of my salvation.
Peopl, I hear you constantly requested proof and backup from AbdusSalam? Well on his behalf I have provided back-up and proof. I await your evidence challenging the rulings of the earlier fuqaha.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Women battle on with mosque plan
Muslim women in a small town in southern India have come together to form a community of elders or jamat, traditionally dominated by men.
This is the first step towards their ultimate goal, building a mosque exclusively for women.
A jamat has traditionally almost always consisted of men, who meet in mosques to adjudicate on family matters.
At present women are not represented in jamats and are allowed to pray inside the mosques only on special days.
In the small town of Pudukottai in the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu, a big revolution is underway.
In a two-storey, red-brick house, a group of Muslim women are sitting together, discussing plans to build India's first women's mosque.
"A Muslim woman has no space, she's confined to the kitchen, the bedroom and the delivery room. And if a woman petitions the jamat, she's not allowed to appear before it.
"The jamat calls her husband to put across his point of view, but a woman has to be represented by her father and her brother. The jamat announces its decision without even hearing her. That is not justice."
Aneesur Rahman Azami is the director of the Islamic Research and Guidance Centre.
He says the women's demand for their own mosque is against Islam.
Daud Sharifa says the community elders ignored their request to reserve two seats in the jamat for women.
Now, she's adamant that at their mosque, all the office-bearers will be women.
"If men want to come into our mosque to pray, they can.
"But it will be a women's mosque, we will write its constitution, we will administer it, we will run it."
[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4165440.stm]BBC NEWS[/url]
when women are denied what is their right they turn to the extreme
they become feminist and end up leadind prayer like what Dr Wadud did
I aint directly studied the works of the great Imams
but MOST DECENT CONTEMPORY scholars have
and they aint forbidden women from entering mosques
so a laymans understanding of the works of Imam Hanifah means nothing to me
salaam
thank you for going in to the trouble of getting some quotes. I am hanafi, like you are, yes...so lets loook at Qudoori, hanafi fiqh book again shall we:
6. Qudoori.
"It is forbidden for women to be present for Jama' (i.e. Salaat in the Musjid) However, [u]old women may come for Fajr, Maghrib and Isha according to Imaam Abu Hanifah. [/u][b]According to Imaam Abu Yusuf and Imaam Muhammad it is permissible for them for all Salaats." [/b]
As you will know ALOT of hanfi fiqh was derived from Imam Abu Hanifa's students Imaam Abu Yusuf and Imaam Muhammad, OK, now read what they have said:[b]it is permissible for them for all Salaats[/b]
Now you tell me bro, from where i stand the hanafi opinion is that it is permissible for muslim women to attend ALL SALATS.
So as a hanafi, you CANNOT say to Muslim women dont attend mosque for salah, you cannot discourahge them!
Now all your evidence is just regarding salaah at the mosque, because it might not be safe, dark etc:
1. Most sisters, women, wifes go to jummah, salah with husband, father, brother or some mahram who escort them there and escort them back, and only allow them to go if there are sepearte entrances and no chance of fitna. So th eImaams have stopped some going becaus ethey were concerned about the welfare of teh sisters incase it was not safe for them etc. Now the situation today ios that it is more than safe, seperate entrances, as i said women are escorted by mahrams, seperate halls...
2. Almost none of the Imaams , especially the hanafi Imaams have not said that women cant go to the mosque for a lecture, to learn the deen, for tarbiyyah, for a course etc. Their reasons and points were to do with salaah in jamaah incase there be omtermixing when they go and come out, not safe etc. NO IMAM discouraged women from going to seek knoweledge etc.
Now husbands, bros, fathers only let women go to mosque becaus ethey know its safe , escort them and so they learn the deen.
[b]
NOW, let stalk about Hazrat Umars view:[/b]
Did the Commander of the Believers `Umar ibn al-Khattab - Allah be well-pleased with him - prevent women from attending the mosque? The answer is: Yes, but only those who stayed there for loitering/relaxation (istirwah), not those attending fard Salat.
Khawla bint Qays said: "We were women, in the Mosque [in Madina al-Munawwara], who may have mixed with the men at times and perhaps [u]even flirted (ghazalna) and even harmed themselves in this intermixing; [/u]so `Umar said: 'I swear I shall make free women of you again.' So he brought us out (akhrajana) of the Mosque." Kanz al-`Ummal #23131 from Ibn Sa`d's Tabaqat.
[b]
`Umar (RA) never prevented nor forbade women from attending the mosque for the five obligatory prayers nor Tarawih.[/b]
This general permission and conditional prohibition is how he understood the meaning of the [b]hadith of the Prophet : "Do not forbid the bondswomen of Allah from [going to] the mosques of Allah."[/b]
[b]It is also related that he allowed them to pray Tarawih prayers in the Mosque at Madina far from the men and ordered Sulayman ibn Abi Hatma to be Imam for them, at the far end of the Mosque. Al-Muhalla (3:139).[/b]
[u]
[b]In fact `Umar himself narrated that the Prophet said more explicitly, "If your women ask permission to go out to Salat, do not forbid them!" Musnad Ahmad (1:40).[/b][/u]
To that end [i]`Umar made sure they had a separate entrance and exit to the Mosque, which he forbade men from using, and separate ablution facilities.[/i] Al-Muhalla (3:131 and 4:119).
[u]My final point:[/u]
It is reported by Abu Hurairah that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said:
[b]"The best row for men is the first, and the worst for them is the last. The best row for women is the last, and the worst is the first." (Muslim) [/b]
[b]Um Salamah, Radi-Allahu anha, reports that when the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, finished the prayer by saying salam, the women would stand up and leave while he was saying the salam. And he would stay in his place for a little while before standing up. [Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Azan Bab Salat-un-Nisa khalf-ar-Rijal]. Other narrations tell us that men also stayed with the Prophet, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, so the women could leave before men.[/b]
[b]Aishah, Radi-Allahu anha, narrates that the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, used to pray Fajr at dusk and then the women would leave immediately without being recognized because of darkness and they would not recognize each other. [Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Azan Bab Sur'ati Insiraaf-inisaai min as-subh][/b]
[b]It is well known from the above that, in the time of the Prophet, women were permitted to attend the mosques [/b]subject to the condition that they satisfied the various restrictions imposed on them by the Shari'ah, such as :
the putting on of a jalbab (a large sheet used for covering the entire body),
wearing simple and dignified clothes,
not using any perfume, avoiding ostentatious display of ornament, etc.
no intermixing
Therefore, efforts will have to be made to persuade Muslim women who want to attend the mosques to start complying with the traditional restrictions on dress, etc. If they do that , nothing can stop them.
The bottom line is that there is enough evidence from the Quran, hadith an dthe hanfi great Imams to say that women can go to the mosque for prayer, aswell as other activities like learning the deen.
May Allah help us to understand His (swt) Deen
Wassallaam[/u]
MASHAALLAH MASHAALLAH! A MOST BEAUTIFUL POST! I must congratulate you editor.
1. First point is that the permissibilty given by Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam Muhammad was referring to OLD WOMEN, no permission was given to the Young Women.
2. Yes for educational purporses women may attend lessons, but this is not an open invitation to coem to the mosque five times a day like the menfolk.
3. Regarding Hadrat Umar radhiyallahu anhu, mashaALLAH we are aware also of the points you have highlighted and accept them. However the fatwa as given by Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Muhammad and Imam Abu Yusuf came AFTER the ruling of Sayyidina Umar, so EVEN if as you propose Sayyidina Umar did not completely ban the women; we as Muqallideen of Ahnaf are bound to the opinion of our Ulama because they have based their ruling taking ALL issues into consideration. Hence I entirely accept your points regarding Holy Prophet salallahu alayhi wa sallam and actions of Sayyidina Umar radhiyallahu anhu but will have to maintain the legality and application of Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Muhammad, Imam Abu Yusuf's stance becuase in taqleed we do not discuss the daleel, we rely on the investigation and conclusions drawn by the ulama who study ALL aspects in great detail.
So even with the above narrations which support your stance, and we do not cast doubt on their legality; the rulings given by our Three Imams still stands upon us.
4. Regarding the point that the women would rise before completion of salaam, that they would hurry to leave the masjid straight after the salah and that the Noble Companions would remain sitted we TOTALLY accept. But in the way I have been taught and understand the issue is that the Sahabiya came to the masjid because the conditions for purity were being met. Holy Prophet salallahu alayhi wa sallam and Sahabah Karaam maintained the purest of conditions and there was no risk of fitnah; noteworthy is that the women left immediately, even before completion of salaam. Ordinarily for a man this is considered improper and highly doubtful yet in order to AVOID INTERMINGLING EVEN IN THE STREETS the Sahabiya left in a rush.
And this is the explanation furnished by Imam Zuhri:
''"The reason for Rasulullah's delay in rising after the Fardh Salaat was to give the women the opportunity of leaving the Musjid before the men. (This prevented intermingling)."
Regarding Hadrat Aisha radhiyallahu anha saying women would not be recognised in the dark. The explanation given by ulama is that they had their faces covered and their cloaks were of dark UNATTRACTIVE colour.
5. Your conditions for women to enter the masjid are entirely correct and good and are infact the same ones provided by our ulama.
6. But you take from this that there is enough evidence to say women can go to mosque for salah, as well as for learning deen.
Now there are two issues with this: salah for women in the mosque
gaining religious knowledge
The issue of women and the masjid for SALAH remains the ruling of Imam Abu Yusuf/Imam Muhammad that only elderly women can attend. There has yet been one proof that the ruling of these two pillars of the Ahnaf have had their rulings made null or no longer aplicable.
The second issue of gaining knowledge. I have no qualms at all with women gaining religoius knowledge infact I think it is sorely lacking. Alhamdulillah we have recently opened a girls madrassah BUT it is NOT in the masjid/madrassah where the male student study, it is not even in the same building nor is it on the main road. The girls madrassah is on a side ride a small walk from the masjid/madrassah. This entitelment to knowledge is being catered for while preventing girls/boys mixing even on the streets outside the madrassah and because th girls madrassah is on a side road it is MORE CONDUCIVE to learning and less likely to cause fitnah.
Brother essentially we have yet to see any proof that the hanafi ruling is no longer on Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam Muhammads rulings. If you can provide evidence then please do so and I will more than willingly present it to my teachers to ask for an exlpanation.
Look its not about what we want or dont; we are merely following the earlier ruling and upto this point I have not been made aware of any change in the ruling. Now if this ruling is not widely implemented, or if few of the hanafi ulama preach it that is a seperate issue and does NOT mean that the hanafi ruling has been changed. If that were the case then salah is very sparsely implemented by the believers and similarly the beard, but that does not alter their legal status in the religion.
MashaALLAH brother your points are good but still I need proof that the hanafi ruling has changed; please provide it and I will try to muster up the courage to ask my teachers.
NB: our masjid does allow women to come for learning lessons on a monthly basis.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Many DECENT CONTEMPORARY SCHOLARS shave their beards in direct contravention of the shari ruling of ALL FOUR IMAMS, many socalled scholars sit in mixed gatherings and gaze at unrelated women. It doesnt matter if the whole world is on the wrong path we as muslims need to look at the truth regardless of how many are on it.
If some contemporary scholars dont teach the ruling of Imam Abu Haneefah that doesnt negate the validity of the ruling. If a person has such faith in these scholars then they should ask them when did the hanafi fuling change and which major hanafi ulama supported the change in the hanafir rulling?
It is also entirely possible that some scholars choose from thier own opinion that the ruling is no longer applicable. In this case if one wishes to follow this one scholar in challenge to Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Muhammad, Imam Abu Yusuf then he must consider this scholar to be a greater mujtahid than the above mentioned illustrious scholars.
If the scholar has proof then PLZ PLZ PLZ i ask for it to be presented. This following of the ruling is not anything to do with personal preference but is rather an issue of taqleed. As far as I am concerned the Hanafi madhab has not altered from its original view, if ANY1 can provide evidence of a change in our hanafi ruling them by ALL MEANS inform me so I can ask and understand exactly what has changed and when.
Regarding it being a laypersons understanding. FYO it has nothing to do with my understanding, i merely presented the rulings given by the Aimmah - if my chain of teachers has misunderstood and the group who dont touch upon the issue (i think very few hanafi ulama will come out and say the ruling is inapplicable) have bertter understood then I am OPEN AND WILLING to find out the truth of the matter and have it explained what the hanafi ruling is.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
salaam
[b]
Women's Right to Attend Mosques[/b]
Narrated Ibn Umar: The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "Allow women to go to the Mosques at night." [b](Bukhari Volume 2, Book 13, Number 22)[/b]
Narrated Ibn Umar: One of the wives of Umar (bin Al-Khattab) used to offer the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayer in congregation in the Mosque. She was asked why she had come out for the prayer as she knew that Umar disliked it, and he has great ghaira (self-respect). She replied, "What prevents him from stopping me from this act?" The other replied, "The statement of Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) : 'Do not stop Allah's women-slave from going to Allah s Mosques' prevents him." [b](Bukhari Volume 2, Book 13, Number 23)[/b]
Ibn 'Umar reported: Grant permission to women for going to the mosque in the night. His son who was called Waqid said: Then they would make mischief. He (the narrator) said: He thumped his (son's) chest and said: I am narrating to you the hadith of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), and you say: No! [b](Sahih Muslim Book 004, Number 0890)[/b]
Ibn Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Do not deprive women of their share of the mosques, when they seek permission from you. Bilal said: By Allah, we would certainly prevent them. 'Abdullah said: I say that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said it and you say: We would certainly prevent them! [b](Sahih Muslim Book 004, Number 0891)[/b]
Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that Atika bint Zayd ibn Amr ibn Nufayl, the wife of Umar ibn al-Khattab, used to ask Umar ibn al-Khattab for permission to go to the mosque. He would keep silent, so she would say, "By Allah, I will go out, unless you forbid me," and he would not forbid her. [b](Sunan Abu Dawud Book 14, Number 14.5.14)[/b]
"The best row for men is the first, and the worst for them is the last. The best row for women is the last, and the worst is the first." [b](Muslim)[/b]
Um Salamah, Radi-Allahu anha, reports that when the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, finished the prayer by saying salam, the women would stand up and leave while he was saying the salam. And he would stay in his place for a little while before standing up. [b][Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Azan Bab Salat-un-Nisa khalf-ar-Rijal]. [/b]Other narrations tell us that men also stayed with the Prophet, Salla-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, so the women could leave before men.
Aishah, Radi-Allahu anha, narrates that the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, used to pray Fajr at dusk and then the women would leave immediately without being recognized because of darkness and they would not recognize each other. [b][Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Azan Bab Sur'ati Insiraaf-inisaai min as-subh][/b]
Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik disliked women going to the mosque because, like Hazrat Umar (RA), they were afraid of the intermixing, safety of women, misbehaviour etc...
Bottom line is if the safety of the woman is secured an dno haraam act is included in her attending the mosque then she should definitely go.
[b]
MY MAIN POINT:[/b]
Even if some scholars, brothers today emphasise that it is better for women to pray at home, fine- i agree...but they should definitely be allowed and encouraged to attend the mosque to seek education, learn islam, attend a course, lecture, do dawah, get involved in the mosque, create facilities for sisters in the mosque, have women teachers in the mosque to teach sisters, let women go to teh mosque to becoem hafiz, alims, learn tajweed..not everyone has time to go to madrassas, have events for new convert sisters in the mosque, have a woman counsellor in the mosque so all sisters can come and talk to her in confidence....theres a million and one things...
its the need fo teh time, muslism are becoming secular, attracted by materialism- WE NEED THE MOSQUE FOR SISTERS TO TURN TO FOR ADVICE, MAKE GOOD ISLAMIC FRIENDS, FOR KNOWLEDGE, FOR ALL THEIR ISSUES, FOR GUIDANCE, FOR HALAL ACTIVITIES, FOR MUSLIM PROJECTS CONCERNING WOMEN, TO CREATE MUSLIM WOMEN THINK TANKS, TO MAKE THE UPCOMING GENERATION SISTERS TURN TO ISLAM THROUGH THE MOSQUES...
i wont say anymore...ive said everything i have had to say....by all means feel free to disagree. I have tried to speak out for the sisters....
May Allah Guide us All.
May Allah forgive us for our mistakes.
If I have said anything wrong, forgive me.
Wassallaam
So has the Hanafi ruling been changed in regards to women and mosques?
Editor bro, I think you missed Medievals part of the post where the rulings stated it was only permissable for OLD women to attend the Mosque.
I mean editor bro, you know a lot of sisters,.. on whose rulings do they justify the attendance of the mosque as you describe,..? i.e. their usage of the Mosque is the same as mens..
and in what sense are the Hanafi rulings not applicable today as you are suggesting?
P.S. Can anybody recommend any books that will have these rulings as reference material. I'd like one with both the English and Arabic, if any available?
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
Editor, you’ve said what you’ve had to say and you’ve provided ample evidence that proves that women should NOT be denied access from the Mosque nor should they be discouraged….stuff that even I wasn’t aware of.
It’s sad that some of own Muslims do not see the need for women to be attached to the Mosques, more so in our day and age….a time when women NEED to be educated more then ever before….a time when there’s fitna taking place left right and centre and salvation can only be sought in blessed gatherings of Dhikr…..even my mum says that if she wasn’t attached to the Mosque she’d be into the rubbish that most people are on…..cos its outside the Mosque that people try to pull you down to their own level.....
It’s best to just agree to disagree. You've said what you've have to say, and I'm sure most of us agree with you.
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