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Your point?
no muslim is gonna agree with u
unless it says in the koran that israil is for the jews.
we is still gonna be fighting man :!:
BTW ur up early today...
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
lol why would a muslim agree with me... I'm just agreeing with St. Mark's religious position since... we're both Christians, and pointing out that there is a humanitarian edge to this question.
The muslims can tell us Israel is theres because of Allah and the Qur'an all they want, it's never going to be an acceptable argument to the United States or Israel. However nobody can deny that there is a real humanitarian plight going on in palestine.
I'm up early everyday - 7am sharp, sometimes 6.
didn't realise ur gov took notice of torah and bible to try and prove that israil belongs to the jews, well most of ur gov are chritians and jews.... :roll: .....
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Israel is not defending itself on God-given grounds, but simply on grounds of necessity to defend itself. Zionism was inspired by those religious grounds but more by the fact that Jews around the world wanted to banish their suffering. The modern State of Israel was the result of Jewish immigration, an eventual Jewish majority, the acknowledgement of the UN and victory against Arab invasions. Its borders are profoundly affected by lack of progress in acheiving a peaceful arrangement. Progress does include a Palestinian state and a secure Israel. Since Palestinians do not en masse support such an arrangement Israel is in the position of acting unilaterally and with regard also for its allies. Israel has to consider itself politically in the same light as any nation, God-given or otherwise, and it does. In searching for a solution neither dogma nor prophecy is an option.
Many Muslims seem to show little regard for the notion of a secure Israel and a Palestinian state and are interested rather in steady Palestinian gain and obsessed with violence in the face of suffering. The route they have taken necessitates military counter-measures and prolongs that suffering. It is a very serious problem. It is not Israel's position to concede to violence, nor to oppress anyone. Some Palestinian groups take a variety of positions from commited enmity and blackmail to negotiation, in seeking those gains, and Israel can only sort the wheat from the chaffe in coming to an arrangement. It is no good for the blackmailers to claim victory every time Israel shows goodwill, nor for the good to claim oppression every time Israelis take military action.
Shabbat Shalom.
da palastinins get treated like shit
its palastinian land and israil was created by briton.
yet the media in america and briton never highlight that....
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
The Palestinians receive more aid per capita than any country on earth. Israeli economic and political measures and hospitals routinely attend to Palestinians. If they wish to concentrate on being victims and resolve their lack of freedom of movement they must avoid involvement in all Hamas activites, their money must not be spent on arms and militancy and they must participate fully in cooperative measures with Israel. Muslims elsewhere should notice how much effort is spent enrolling them into support for hostile parties and refuse to offer that particular support. Judda, your last comment implies you believe in annihilating Israel, whether or not you have thought it through. If you believe in that, you are part of the problems the Palestinians face. Hamas, Hizbollah, Jihad Islamiyeh, Al Aqsa brigades and so on are extremely sneaky in spreading liability, using civilians including children as human shields and suicide bombs and claiming victimisation, and the bottom line is Israel must continue to confront them. On the other hand Israel is more than willing to support a Palestinian state that does not operate on such low principles. The choice is not Israel's to make.
the israilies do that so much damage, that they are still suffering more then any other country in the world (well after iraq ofcourse.) This is rarely highlighted in the british media. i once watched this documentry a while back and it said the BBC were covering up for the israilies. This woman who lived in israil (i think she was a chritian) spoke up for the palastinians and showed how they were treated like animals. A few years ago Tony Blairs wife said she was not surprised by all the suacide bombing coz of the way palastnians were treated, unfortunatly what she said was brushed under the carpet.
mate that is ironic....
well actually they only help a few ppl, show it on american and british T.V. to make them selves look like "the good guys" and make palastinians look like "the bad guys".
well actaully i want 2 separate states. i do genuinely believe it is palastinian land but it wud be a bit mean to kick the jews out since briton had dumped them there in the first place. It is part of my muslim duty to have mercy on the pityD.
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Hi Constantine,
You and Dave are the same person then...... Doh! :oops:
The land of Israel being defined, in terms of geographical position, as...?
And it is a jewish land because god said it should be. Is that despite them braking the covenant that admin is talking about, or is that not right.
I didn't say the government did use the torah or bible as the basis for the State of Israel. I'm simply saying that arguments from the Quran aren't going to ring true in our ears from a political stand point or a cultural stand point.
I don't understand why muslims continue to make the argument... it as a matter of natural consequence falls on deaf ears.
okay :roll:
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
lol yep same guy.
Christians as far as I know are not clear on the issue of the Old Covenant. I cannot say for certain if it has been broken (I have heard this argument) if it has been replaced by the New (I have heard that) and thus is moot or if it has been naturally superceded by the New (I have heard that and am of that opinion), but still does exist between the Jews and God.
I am sort of under the impression that the New Covenant does two things - it creates a new Covenant between the followers of Christ and Christ, and makes those followers subject to the old covenant as well.
Otherwise the ten commandments might not apply to us - which they do.
Thus the new is greatly revising the Old in all sorts of interesting ways.
I am open to Christian scholarship on the topic honestly (st. mark, st. george if you care to add)
But [i]I[/i] don't see anything in Christ's words that say the Old Covenant is washed away.
I do know for certain that is a Covenant between the Jews and God - thus it doesn't apply to me.
Even if the old Covenant were washed away Israel would still belong to the Jews - via the Christians since naturally it is the City of God, and Christians do not deliniate between the Jews and Christians - their temple is our temple as far as we are concerned and will be rebuilt in the future.
I think this is often forgotten because (unfortunately) Constantine's adoption of Christianity has stamped a latin flavor to the religion - not in terms of doctrine, but in terms of practice etc. We [i]are[/i] Jews in the religious sense - who have accepted Christ and God and Savior.
The Dome of the Rock however is neither a Christian, nor a Jewish temple, and the muslim claim is based - in our religion - on the works of a false prophet. There isn't a biblical reconciliation there.
As far as the geographical boundaries of Israel are concerned it would be "the kingdom of David" scholars differ precisely on where that is but it certainly includes all the lands of Canaan.
So basically appealing to Prophecy is not going to work for Muslims in the Christian case. It works even less in the American case since as you know the American 2 state position is not grounded in biblical truths as a matter of the establishment clause AND on top of that it makes no connection with the individual American - 75 percent of whom are Christian in one form or another.
Basically i'm saying it's a bad argument that doesn't really help us understand or sympathise with the Palestinians at all and should (in my recommendation) actually be avoided.
Judda,
I don't see any of your comments here as being very insightful or helpful, rather they are defending a useless position, but I don't necessarily expect different.
Anyway this is definitely it from me today, Shabbat Shalom habibi.
it is against my religion to turn my back on the suffering ppl of palastine.
well i am a muslim afterall
100 the verse that khan wrote ment that we could not hang around with chritians and jews that are zionists, because they are the protectors of each other, if we do we are one of them. But not all chritians and jews are zionists so it is okay to hang around with them. I don't think we're allowed to marry zionists either.
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Hi Peeps how you doin'?
Last time I came here I asked a few relatively simple questions and was accused of several not very nice things. I come back and find the same nonsense still going on. I'm not gonna say too much this time because I really am not going to get into a discussion with people that just cannot be honest and choose to avoid the facts rather than stand up for what they believe, right or wrong.
What has really annoyed me is this crap about Israel having a God given right to something that has been gained by fraud, violence, murder, deceit and oppression......obviously the way of God??. If anyone tries to tell me that that is the way or means God intended Israel to have the Spiritual Homeland or whatever its called then I'm gonna puke.
As for UN backing, well at that time the UN would have done anything to appease anyone that carried any financial, political clout. No change there then! And the original UN / British sanction on a Jewish homeland did not include progressive expansion, (openly at least) and least of all at the cost of so many lives.
If the UN has such a strong place in Israeli affections, why has Israel chosen to ignore over 70 UN resolutions on Israeli actions in Palestine? Thats a bit lopsided. The UN is right, we need a homeland its our right. On the other hand when they suggest we are wrong for some reason we'll just tell them to mind their own business.
What a crock!
:twisted:
u cannot deny the fact that chritian and jewish politicians will have a biased view on the subject.
u and 100 are zionists coz of what the torah and the bible say. WELL GET UP TO DATE PAL! god revealed a mathamaticially composed and a scientificially proven sripture 1400 years ago which does not say the land belongs to the jews. now i deffo aint telling u to convert to islam (no fricken way :!: ) but if u ever feel like using the scripture to justafy the illiegal occupation then take a look at the koran!
its palastinian land
u can't change that
the only solution to the problem is to have two seprate states or an even better one is to tell the jews to live in USA and UK coz they dumped them there in the first place.....
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
There is another option which has not been given much attention except by Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi and that is the one-statesolution. Israel is supposedly a middle eastern democracy. The western world want deomcracy to take hold in ME. The most obvious and easiest solution is to make Israel and West Bank/Gaza into one united country, call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Mashed Potatoes and Peas.
This one country should allow jews to stay and allow the palestinians to return and be purely democratic, one man one vote. But Israel aint willing to do that cos it challenges the jewishness of their state.
From a secular poiint of view, what is wrong with the one statesolution?
The arab nations who dont recognise israel are beginning to soften and say that if israel gives a palestinian state then they will recognise israel. Why dont the arab states just say make it into one country of equality and we will recognise it if it is a democracy :?:
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
never seen u b4, bit nothing said that i disagree with
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
many viable solutions have been proposed for both Israel/Palestine and Kashmir
however, Greed always prevails unfortunatly
all leaders are unwilling to give without taking, they dont wish to look weak
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
what viable solution is there to kashmir?
No viable solution save one, and peole are too chicken including myself to take it.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
ive heard some and you can even think of some yourself, but i wouldnt know right now. admittedly, i dont take much interest in the Kashmir situation. i wish them the best tho
what solution is that you speak of Med?
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
I am fom kashmir, and kashmir holds a special place in my heart. My brothers both in deen and geographically just over the LoC suffer at the hands of the worshippers of the cow and the idol. There is one solution.
Will diplomacy give justice to abused women and abused children? Will justics be given to the widows and orphans? Will the brides who have their bridal night with hindu soldier get justice by shaking hands?
ALLAH FORGIVE US, for we are responsible for their suffering.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
bro i agree with you entirely on kashmir issue, im not that educated on the recent dvelopments (if any), but i wish the best for the muslims there.
what is the solution you suggest?
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
I have done a complete thread about Kashmir.
u may discuss the topic there...
http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=605
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Certainly biased against any biblical argument - you can't in seriousness expect a group of Jews and Christians to accept an argument from the Qur'an. However we in the USA are committed to the two state solution, and our motivation for the creation of Israel has more to do with World War II than anything else (do note though that the US didn't "create" Israel - Britain did).
lol I really don't see the difference between an invitation to convert and an invitation to accept the validity of the Qur'an but i'm quite comfortable where I am.
Thanks all the same.
But there you are ignoring my advice; to remind you - my advice is that any argument based on the Qur'an to the USA or Israel is falling on deaf ears - avoid them, they do you no good.
I noticed the first solution you supplied is two seperate states. Are you aware that's the US position or are you just being ironic?
As for shipping the Jews "back" to USA or UK I think that's a fantastic plan, let's send all those damn foreigners back where they belong - i'll send you your plane ticket back to a random location east of europe.
You can't be serious can you? The Jews have been there for over 50 years, these aren't immigrants 2 entire generations have been born on Israeli soil and grew up in Israel, by now they certainly have an equal right to the land.
mate i is serias
British pakiz, indians, bangledeshis, iraqis, iranis, etc. are under threaght because of the BNP
ever since 7/7 there support has rocketed
some of them have been here since the 50s and ppl tell us to "go home"
america has got enough money for war, spend it on somthing humane like taking the jews back....
mate if me and ma boys took ur homeland treated u like shit and destroyed the bit we left for u completely and destroyed ur life and 50 years time would u say that that land is rightfully ours since we have been there for 50 years????....
ur just another cold hearted zionist with an obsession with murdering muslims....
if "muslim" countries were islamic we wud have defeated u ages ago :twisted:
God is:
- ‘Best Provider’ 5:114, 22:85, 23:72, 34:39, and 62:11
- ‘Best Supporter’ 3:150
- ‘Best Schemer’ 3:54
- ‘Best Judge’ 7:87,10:109, 12:80, 6:57
- ‘Most Accurate Reckoner’ 6:62
god wud have helped us, since we rejected god god has rejected us....
but we isn't giving up maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!! we is still gonna carry on rambling but at the same time condemning suacide attacks on israil...
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Hi,
This position of religious superiority, accuracy, provability or whatever, that seems to be prevailant in these discussions on the subject of Palestine, is quite confusing.
The Jews and Christians cannot be expected to take any notice of the koran........but...... the Jews have a [u]religious[/u] right to Palestine, which the Palestinians and the rest of the world has to accept?? Am I the only one that sees a huge pile of hypocritical bulls**t in that?? What if I don't accept that your religion is right, or that you have translated or understood it correctly or what if I believe that there is no god, do I still have to accept it?? Don't I have a say, do I have to surrender my belief to accommodate yours??
Certain people condemn suicide bombings by "religion" driven maniacs, quite rightly and then have the bare faced affront to suggest that Israel has a GOD given right to persecute and oppress a whole nation because he has given them, by means of his promise, this piece of land??
Equal right to the land because it has been in the possession of the "invader" for long enough to [i]justify[/i] the equal right with complete respect Dave that just isn't right.
TTFN
:twisted:
he is an american, it is in his nature, he cannot help it, leave him alone.
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Isn't that the palestinian argument though? "The Jews haven't been there for centuries"
Frankly the holy land has been fought over so many times, it's impossible to give any historic claim to anyone.
The Canaanites stole it from the hittites, the jews took it from the canaanites, the romans took it from the jews (skipped a buncha takings) the Christian byzantines from the Romans, the muslims from the byzantines, the mongols (briefly) from the muslims, the christians from the muslims, the muslims from the christians, the turks from some other group, the brits from the turks, the brits then gave it to the jews.
I'm not really shedding a tear for anyone's lost historic homeland at that point.
So I am forced to contemplate who has an immediate claim to the land - I say both, there have been 2 generations of jews who know nothing but israel, it is their home - no denying this.
There are also several generations of palestinians who have grown up in the west bank gaza and several other areas.
The original arab claimants - jordanians and egyptians (since there was no nation of palestine) are so long removed from the land, all but the youngest of them from the times before Israel can really claim any right to the land.
I see an equal claim for both parties so I support the two state solution.
Okay.
You're still missing my point. You can shout scream chant - whatever religious arguments but they are not going to be any use to a primarily secular christian society like the United States. I'm not really making an argument - but rather a suggestion.
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