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Thanks for clarifying that. I think Rabbi Judah was discussing psalms or something, because many prayers were written during and after Rabbi Judah's lifetime. Without question nothing can be added to the psalms. Regarding the mathematics, much attention was often paid to the numerical value of words in Hebrew and Aramaic as with Arabic and many psalms were written that contain brilliant gematrias (word-sums) that connote other words and concepts. (There is also a longstanding science of seeking hidden meanings in the Torah (but I do not think Rav Yehudah was even contemplating the possibility of adding to Torah unless he was discussing Christian and other non-Jewish insertions). I find some of those exercises more credible than others, but do not subscribe to the idea that those equations should be particularly marked 'evidence' to persuade non-believers.) I have to admit I am also now going off the top of my head.
Here is my answer to your question from the Beauty thread, 'what is a zionist?'
My definition, since I call myself a Zionist: Someone who believes in a Jewish state called Israel, more or less in the biblical land of Zion.
[url=http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2... working definitions.[/url]
I also believe it is imperative that Israel seeks peace with its neighbours, and that Israel actively defends itself against those who seek to destroy Israel. I could apply those principles to any state on earth. I also believe it is my role as a Zionist to confront slander, libel and those who declare political or dogmatic injunctions against Israel.
Regarding the poll, since it is quite an upsetting conclusion for me, can anyone who ticked 'no in my experience' or 'no regardless' give a good example of their experience that British Muslims and Jews cannot get on, or explain why 'no regardless'? (I am wondering if 'no regardless' is a belief or an intention, since 'yes regardless' was for me a declaration of intent.)
http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=6203&highlight=#6203
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Judda, thank you for posting that. I have not read the whole thread as I have time constraints but just glibly to answer 'who was there first', and without going back to biblical times, I am afraid the answer is unclear. By the time of the Balfour declaration there was a sizeable contiguous area with a Jewish majority that had mostly immigrated during Ottoman and British colonial rule, and initial proposals for two states proposed granting Jews autonomy in that area. Up to the 'Arab riots' of 1929 and after that, land was purchased at exhorbitant prices, and there was an issue over whether landowners had any right to sell and hence whether the land was legally owned by Jews, and Arabs were encouraged by those same villainous landowners to contest the matter aggressively. Since only the Jews found the two-state proposals acceptable the issue is muddied by war and no agreement. I am more interested in what would be workable. ftr as many Jews were simply killed and expelled by Muslim states in 1948 as there were Arabs displaced in Israel's War of Independence - which was initiated by Arab states upon Israel's declaration of independence, and Jews in many (officially not all) Muslim lands have been persecuted ever since. I know many Yemenites, Iraqis and Iranians for example who experienced that first-hand. Israel welcomed those Jews. I have never fully understood (to be polite, since I am aware of outright hostility to Israel and the posturing of the Arab League and Muslim Brotherhood) why the many Muslim states never provided full refuge and equal rights to displaced Palestinians, instead taking a stand for not recognising Israel. That has cost a generation of Palestinians their freedom. I think if Arabs gave up pinning their woes on Israel they would see a massive opportunity to take responsibility for the wellbeing of these millions of people. Musharaf's recent efforts, stymied as they will be for some time, are very laudable - I salute him.
I honestly don't think the majority of either party [i]wants[/i] to abandon their disdain for the other.
Nothing I have seen in the larger muslim or jewish communities indicates to me that they see each other as "brothers in faith" or anything but competitors.
The former Prime Minister of Malaysia summed it up quite beautifully "It cannot be that there is no other way, 1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews"'
Until I am convinced that the majority of each side [i]wants[/i] this I do not think reconciliation will occur.
Constantine,
I disagree. I know in your country right-wing Jews are noisy but they are not the majority of American Jews, who are traditionally liberal Democrats, and even most Republican Jews in my experience prefer harmonious relations to any other sort. In Britain our politics have tended to be less partisan and more about issues. Certainly it is true of British Jews generally that we want peace and abhor hatred, and I am very clued up about British Jews. The problem is that when some Muslims voice outright distrust and extremely antisemitic declarations, it is hard to trust Muslims generally. I have found that researching Islam does not really help, there is as much to be concerned by as to be encouraged by, and the purpose of my poll is to see whether Muslims in this forum have either a belief in or a commitment to intercommunal harmony. I also think it would be fantastic to rescue British pride from the clutches of fascists, and that will not work if we squabble or become hostile on our points of disagreement. I am always up for discussion and argument though, which is in the nature of any free country. I do respect that in this forum most contributors are civil and open and that in itself is a powerful stand.
100 tell me sum swear words in hebrew and i will tell u sum in arabic, okay?
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
call me a pessimist its all a nice dream, the harmony between Muslims and Jews.. I really want it to work..
yes on the community level in the UK i reckon there is the respect.. Jews and Muslims in the UK are living peacefully, minding their own business sticking to their own kind. Sometimes you even get marriages happening between the two faiths.
but ur right, Muslims cannot trust Jews. Its sad, we should trust the Jewish nation, unfortunatly God and history has taught us not to.. I could be all tellytubby and say.. 'thats an extremist view which takes this concept of mistrust out of context'.. but that would be foolish of me to do so.. as there is nothing extreme about not submitting oneselfs trust.
I think the Christian is more forgiving and forgetting of Jewish history, because its in their nature.., but Islam sheds a more.. 'blatant' light on the matter.
Looking 1400 years on after the Qur'an was revealed, at say.. ip dip doo.. Israel.. Yeh I reckon God was right in warning us about them.. we need to keep a close eye on the Jews..
I'm not being racist, or prejudice,.. Jews shouldnt be hurt or treated with disrespect, Jihad on the Jews is not Fard upon Muslims in the UK. Just can't be trusted..
And I iz not just picking on Ali Jee here, theres many people we have been warned about. We've even been warned about people amongst ourselves. Muslims who have motives other than pleasing Allah.
I mean u look at Planet earth and whats happening today.. the natural disasters, natural fuel resources running out, the Jews waiting for their messiah, the Christians waiting for the second coming, The Muslims waiting for the Mahdi.
People, nations have already started preparing.. I know for a fact Muslims are on the look out for the Mahdi during the Hajj.. I'm sure Christians and Jews are also preparing for the coming of their people.
It will happen, as its been written.. put it together.. what do the Christian and Jewish texts say about Islam.. or did your God just forget to leave it out?
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
Judda, I will link some. [url=http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/hebrew.htm]:oops:[/url]
You may notice a few were taken from Arabic. If you get a big annoying ad there's a small 'close' hyperlink at the top for cleaning up the page.
khan's comment is food for thought. I instantly object strongly, but am not sure how best to frame a detailed response so I won't just yet. The bottom line is that I don't understand that depth of cynicism, and I am not responsible for it.
100 mate are you into kabbalah?
there stuff r a bit expensive innit?
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Kabbalah the collection of Jewish spiritual texts or the new-age Jewish organisation Maddona has joined? I think you should Google more often.
to be perfectly honest your objection to one or many of my points does not surprise me at all.
but yeh, i'm interested in attending a social group for Muslims and Jews. Can just picture it, chatting away, 'yeh we should build a bridge between our communities'.. but thinking 'but i still dont trust you'
i can see it working, i dont know.. can there ever be 'peace' without 'trust'?
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
I can't stand google, too much rubbish on it and takes too long.
Why are all Kabbalah stuff a rip off?
I thought there was only one "Kabbalah", the one which Madonna and Britney joined.
Is it any good?
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
thought this might be appropriate..
Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
which goofball transalated that?
the wordings a bit iffy.
The meanings twisted aswell.
And u added ur own words to it! (the bit in brackets)
"[i]And he amongst you that turns to them [b](for friendship)[/b] is of them[/i]"
notice how god did not say "for friendship" u or the person who transalted that added that.
If u turn to them for [b]GUIDENCE[/b] then u r one of them, retard :roll:
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
sorry shud have posted the refs.
the above translation is Yusuf Ali's
the following is pickthals
Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread) - (Arabic)
5:51 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
both from Islamicity.com
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
khan,
Ditch that sentiment is all I can suggest. It is entirely self-fulfilling. I am not going to discuss the matter so close to Shabbat, it is too distressing, but over the weekend you might consider the impact of what you are saying from a position of a trusting, trustworthy man, me.
Judda,
So one lesson for today is that there is a collection of sacred Jewish texts called Kabbalah, and distinct from that there is a new-age rip-off organisation claiming to 'follow' those texts, calling itself Kabbalah.
aint my words, they're Allahs words,.. If Muslims wanna be your friend let them be.. makes no difference to me.
I just thought I'd tell them what Allah has said about the Jewish nation. Tell u what, Just search an online Qur'an for the word Jew, and see what it says..
I can ditch sentiments, but i wont ditch my Qur'an. Nope, not even if i lose out on a few Jewish friends.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
mate if i was u i wud ditch Yusifs transalation of the koran.
Rashad Khalifa's transaltion is more better then his, and we all know what Rashad is like...
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
100,
Actually the majority of the Jews I know are socialists and lefties. I don't really see the Jews as the deciding factor in lasting relations between Jews and Muslims. The Prime Minister of Malaysia was absolutely correct, 1.3 billion muslims will not be defeated by a few million jews. He meant it in a very different context, but to me I look at that in terms of a lasting peace or at least a "settling of differences"
To the point, it matters little to me how many jews want to settle differences with muslims - the muslims are the controlling party in this instance by weight of numbers. Until I see a [i]genuine[/i] interest from the [u]vast[/u] majority of muslims to let go of some of their prejudices I have a very pessimistic outlook for a settling of grievances. Unfortunately as Khan articulated very well, many of these prejudices come from - or at least have strong grounding, in the religion itself.
I do not believe Khan made that up on the spot. Nor do I see a way in which that can be interpreted that would cast anything but suspicion on the Jewish community by a muslim reader.
Do not get me wrong, 99.999% of muslims I believe do not want death destruction and killing.
But to me [i]it is a peculiar thing that the very people who say these things are perfectly willing to hold on to the prejudices that justify the violence![/i]
Look at Khans posts for evidence of that.
Certainly this works both ways - to the detriment of all - but the Jewish community is too small worldwide to really make a difference.
This is fully dependent upon a muslim majority being willing and scripturally able to come to the table.
I do not see this.
***And for God's sake don't tell me jews are liberals - you're going to make ME want to hate them.
damn liberals
100 do you find "Judeo Christian" offensive?
I did not say Khan made it up. Yusif is an idiot.
Yeah we are told to be cautious don't get me wrong. But there is no need to take the verse litrally. You cannot mix with them [b]excessively[/b] coz they may influence u to be like them.
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
How can you deal with somebody fairly if you approach then with "caution"
Besides the words are quite clear "do not take as [i]friends[/i]" "they are [u]friends[/u] to one another"
lol and if that's from the Qur'an, it's pretty sketchy.
Sadly there is no religious group alive that has done more to destroy the Jews over the course of the last 2000 years than the Christian community.
Only very recently in the post WW2 world have Christians begun the process of not trying to anihilate them.
We call them older brothers in faith today - but 50 years ago we called them the murderers of Christ (in insult not in doctrine).
There is no reason to believe this is anything more than a 50 year stint of kindness in a continued line of hatred.
yeah sure it says u r friends with one another....
ppl use that verse to advocate voilence, but god condemns that.
It don't say u can't be friends with them, yusif is an idiot.
No where in the koran does it say we shud h8 u.
God said respect all religions, and he also said if he wanted to he would have made us all one nation with one relgion but he did not want to.
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
I've don't support violence and prejudice against Jews. Violence in Islam is only in Self defence. I woulda thought after all these years on this forum u would've picked that up.
distrusting a nation that cannot be trusted is not a prejudice, its an awareness.
To suggest my post's are supporting violence due to prejudices demonstrates how even a Christian cannot be trusted.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
Dave we is allowed to marry chritians and jews! the verse has been twisted. I is gonna have to check it up my self.
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
So basically you don't support violence against Jews.
And you have a preformed opinion of a group of people based on prior information.
Thanks for clearing that up sick.
David, - the prior information is from God himself.
yeh.. true say Judda - ism?.
theres gotta be trust between a Husband a wife.
apologies for any distress caused will look into further. just having a bad day at work and needed to release a bit of steam.
sorry 100 sorry David. we all love u guys really
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
The boss again?
Ever thought of getting a new job or filing a descrimination lawsuit or somethin, the guy seems like an ignorant jackass.
I often wonder why God created all these religions - or rather I should say allowed people to create all these other religions (interpret that in a manner most befitting your religious background).
Honestly I think it has to do with freewill and free conscience but if that's the case I am really impressed.
He's pretty darn confident innit he
Why do you think there are so many religions?
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