100, thanks for the advice.. i wish u all the best in your journey to seek knowledge of Islam.

There's a hadith.. cannot quote the reference.. ask ur Imam he maybe able to tell you.

whoever takes one step towards Allah, Allah takes two steps towards him.

ur definatly a Muslim at heart, you may think its entirely upto u that ur on this forum and speaking your mind. but u'll find that In your sincere search for the true message of Islam, you will find that it was Allah himself who made all this possible.

Im glad u think, I got it twisted.. u may be right.. if Allah wills, an ex kafir can someday show me the true path to Allahs Love and Mercy.

62:6 Say (O Muhammad): O ye who are Jews! If ye claim that ye are favored of Allah apart from (all) mankind, then long for death if ye are truthful.

100, get rid of all dat anger inside u. its wrong.

3:134 Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good;-

and ignorance.. come off it bro. i'm not being ignorant, im seeking knowledge in Islam just like you. Its only after u made this thread that I really started looking into what the Islamic texts say about Jews.

listen buddy, as u've been blessed with a drive to seek a deeper understanding of Allah swt' words.. I feel that I need to do more.. to find out. I'm not a scholar, i suggest that everyone consults their own scholars on this, rather than taking the word of a Jew, or an uneducated Muslim.

25:63 And the servants of ((Allah)) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!";

mate speculation is wrong..

Okay, just spoken to a guy who's studied arabic, regarding these verses.

I accept that I have been foolish in posting verses without commentary from scholars - I was wrong, may Allah forgive me.

But I've always maintained the view of my lack of education in this field. I was hoping for more clued up brothers to make comments. But its developed into a personal thing. I'm sorry.

Regarding Dawah, as long as ur in here, ur always gna be blessed with Dawah. Its the life you lead. Appreciate it.

Anyways.. this is what the person who was slightly more clued up had to say:

- trusting jews - he said, i don't trust many Muslims. Trust Jews with what? Give me an example.. i didn't know what to say.

- being friends with Jews - he said, why not..? so I asked him about the verse.
to which he replied.. its a very tricky one.. the word arabic word for 'friend' can be misinterpreted. I think he used the word 'Awlia' which is more of an 'intimate' friend, or a protector.. another one is the word 'kalil'.. i.e. Abraham a.s. was kalil of Allah.. so kinda suggested yeh we can be friends, but not very close friends.

so basically.. laying my cards on the table.. I do not know, I need further clarification.

I'm telling you though 100, its because Allah swt has guided you to post this that I'm looking into it. I appreciate it, and I'm sorry for jumping in with texts that I did not understand myself.

hehe, safe..

but definatly post what ur imam has to say.. i need to know.

"khan" wrote:

5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

many scholars of Islam take this to mean we cannot take non muslims as our advisors - we can have non muslim friends but not take advice from them

i dont want to come into this discussion between you 2 guys but i just had to clear this up

all the muslims i know myself especially we are friends with and friendly with all religions, nationalities, colours creeds you name it

our purpose is to spread love and understanding we have no time for hatred only time to seek the truth first within ourselves then the world and look at the facts of any given situation

when it comes to religion all muslims must respect all religions

[b]Does Islam Forbid Befriending non-Muslims?

Question :A Greek Christian friend of mine came to me and said that he wanted a book that guides him to the way a man should live. I handed him a copy of the Qur'an. He took deep interest in reading it until he came across the following verse: “O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.” (Al-Ma’dah: 51)

Reading the verse, he asked "why is that so?" Why is your book telling you that we can't be your friends? Does that mean I can't be your friend? And at his request I am seeking help from you to throw some light on it. I am too confused by this. And if that is so then why does Islam allow us to marry Christian and Jewish girls (Despite the fact they might not want to change their religion.) Please reply soon.[/b]

Name of Mufti Muzammil Siddiqi
Content of Reply
Wa`alaykum As-Salaamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.

In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, thank you very much for having confidence in us, and we hope our efforts, which are purely for Allah's Sake, meet your expectations.

In his response to the question, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Society of North America, states the following:

“The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.

Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people. Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness. Allah says in the Qur'an in the beginning of the same Surat Al-Ma’dah: “O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.” (Al-Ma’dah :8)

In another place in the Qur'an, Allah Almighty says:

“Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.” (Al-Mumtahinah: 8-9)

Moreover, Allah Almighty has described Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, as "a mercy" to the worlds. He was a sign of Allah's Mercy to all, Muslims as well as non-Muslims. In his kindness and fair treatment he did not make any difference between the believers and non-believers. He was kind to the pagans of Makkah and fought them only when they fought him. He made treaties with the Jews of Madinah and honored the treaties until they broke them.

He, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have received the Christians of Najran with kindness in his Masjid in Madinah. They argued with him about Islam, but he returned them with honor and respect. There are many examples from his life that show that he was the friendliest person to all people.

In the verse you quoted, the word "Awliya" is used. It is a plural and its singular is "wali". The correct translation of the word ""wali"" is not "friend" but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean "guardian, protector, patron, lord and master".

In the Qur'an this word is used for God, such as “Allah is the Protector (or Lord and Master) of those who believe. He takes them out from the depths of darkness to light…” (Al- Baqarah: 257)

There are many other references in the Qur'an that give this meaning. The same word is also sometimes used in the Qur'an for human beings, such as “And whosoever is killed unjustly, We have granted his next kin "wali" the authority (to seek judgement or punishment in this case)…”(Al-‘Isra' :33)

The correct translation of the verse in Surat Al-Ma’idah is: “O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.” (Al-Ma'dah :51)

It is obvious that Jews patronize the Jews and Christians patronize the Christians, so why not Muslims patronize Muslims and support their own people. This verse is not telling us to be against Jews or Christians, but it is telling us that we should take care of our own people and we must support each other.

In his Tafsir, (Qur’an exegesis) Imam Ibn Kathir has mentioned that some scholars say that this verse (i.e. the one you referred to) was revealed after the Battle of Uhud when Muslims had a set back. At that time, a Muslim from Madinah said, "I am going to live with Jews so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." And another person said, "I am going to live with Christians so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." So Allah revealed this verse reminding the believers that they should not seek the protection from others, but should protect each other. (See Ibn Kathir, Al-Tafsir, vol. 2, p. 68)

Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. You are correct in pointing out that a Muslim man is also allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman. It is obvious that one marries someone for love and friendship. If friendship between Muslims and Jews or Christians was forbidden, then why would Islam allow a Muslim man to marry a Jew or Christian woman? It is the duty of Muslims to patronize Muslims. They should not patronize any one who is against their faith or who fights their faith, even if they were their fathers and brothers. Allah says: “O you who believe! Take not for protectors (awliya') your fathers and your brothers if they love unbelief above faith. If any of you do so, they are indeed wrong-doers.” (Al-Tawbah : 23)

In a similar way, the Qur'an also tells Muslims that they should never patronize the non-Muslims against other Muslims. However, if some Muslims do wrong to some non-Muslims, it is Muslims's duty to help the non-Muslims and save them from oppression . The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said that he himself will defend a Dhimmi living among Muslims to whom injustice is done by Muslims. But Islam also teaches that Muslims should not seek the patronage of non-Muslims against other Muslims. They should try to solve their problems among themselves. Allah Almighty says, “Let not the Believers take the unbelievers as their patrons over against the Believers…” (Aal-'Imran :28)

He Almighty also says: “O you who believe! Take not for patrons unbelievers rather than Believers. Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?” (An-Nisaa’:144)

May Allah guide you to the straight path, and guide you to that which pleases Him, Amen.

Allah Almighty knows best.

Could somebody give me a clear explanation of the rights of dhimmis?

From what I understand, they have a right to everything in their religion, apart from converting others.

Also they do not Pay Zakaah, but Jizya.

also read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

It seems a decent account... even if it references Hizbut Tahrir far too much for my liking...

However there were lapses of its practice in Islamic history...

Thanks.

"TheRevivalEditor" wrote:

[“The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.

Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people. Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness. Allah says in the Qur'an in the beginning of the same Surat Al-Ma’dah: “O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.” (Al-Ma’dah :8)
.

thank u for that Mr Ed

that was very useful

i also dont buy that u "must not be friends with the dirty Kufar" crap

even if we look at this forum we'll realise how popular the "Kafar" Dave is

just cos he's a non Muslim that dont stop me from liking him any less-cos he's a decent guy

GO DAVE

Give us D

Give us an A

Give us a V

Give us an E.........

Whaddy'a get.....

Dave!!!

awwwwwww geeze guys.

Bring it in.

Come on - group hug.

Don't fight it now - it's hug time

Its a trap!

"Admin" wrote:

Its a trap!

really i thought it was a badger?

I found this while looking up Turkey's role in WWII.

http://www.sefarad.org/publication/lm/043/6.html

Hi,

Isn't that a raccoon? If not, whats a badger doin' in a tree? Apart from a great Tarzan impression.

:?:

"DTC" wrote:

Hi,

Isn't that a raccoon? If not, whats a badger doin' in a tree? Apart from a great Tarzan impression.

:?:

Okay okay okay!

I had to take away the raccoon because it was distracting (and a little unnerving)

Definitely a raccoon - you can tell because they always look paranoid.

Welcome to the forum DTC!

"Admin" wrote:

Yes there is alot of slander. But that is life.

That can mostly be overcome.

Israel is a whole other ball game. Consider you with your good muslim pal, enjoying a meal. Turn on the TV, an its Israel/Palestine. Either you both lie to each other, or you resort to fisticuffs. Or acknowledge each others position, saying the other is wrong, but hey what the heck.

There is no compromise on this issue. On either side.

What do I not see value in? You are being too subtle for me.

I don't think muslims have a right to be there. I read one of your imams said the koran says irael is forr thhe jews but I doubt if he'll get much support from his fellow muslims.

"stmark" wrote:

I don't think muslims have a right to be there. I read one of your imams said the koran says irael is forr thhe jews but I doubt if he'll get much support from his fellow muslims.

Yea religiously it's pretty clear from the bible that the Jews have the sole right to the land by the grace of God.

However there are humanitarian considerations that [u]must[/u] be taken into effect, we can't ignore the Palestinians do have a claim to their homes. We should stick to the two state solution politically realizing as Christians that there are no other religious claims to the land but the Hebrew claim.

Leviticus established that.

And let God's will be done.

"stmark" wrote:

I don't think muslims have a right to be there. I read one of your imams said the koran says irael is forr thhe jews but I doubt if he'll get much support from his fellow muslims.

where abouts in the koran does it say that?

It says there was a sort of covenant.

if the jews follow it, they get Isrel. However they broke it repeatedly. They even killed some prophets that were sent.

So it does not say Israel is for the jews. It says it can be if they hold their side of the bargain up.

i dunno i find it sad really.

I don't understand how the Jews can justify Gods blessing on the existence of Israel in its current state.

its mere existence defying international democracy is responsible for 100s of 1000s of deaths.

its not good is it.

better solution for Jews, Muslims and Christians in the region:
http://harunyahya.com/32israelis_soc13.php#dip

Quote:

The Torah commands Jews to establish peace and security, not to occupy other lands and spill blood. The people of Israel are described as 'a light unto the nations.' As Rabbi Dovi Weiss has said:

"The Jewish people are commanded by Almighty God to live in peace with all peoples and nations on the face of the globe. Our agenda is simple It is to humbly worship the Creator at all times. As Torah Jews we are called upon to feel and express our sense of compassion when any person or group of human beings suffers."1

If the Israelis continue to treat the Palestinians as they are now, they may be unable to account for that to God. Those Palestinians who kill innocent Israelis, on the other hand, may be unable to account for those murders. Is it not a duty in the eyes of God to put an end to the fighting, which is dragging both sides deeper into satanic violence?

We invite all Jews to consider these facts. God commands us Muslims to invite Jews and Christians to a 'common formula':

Say, "O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." (Koran, 3:64)

The torah is attributed to moses (i haven't got the time to study to find out if that was true) but the only verses I could find in the koran to do with moses and the "holy land" were these.....

[5:20] Recall that Moses said to his people, "O my people, remember GOD's blessings upon you: He appointed prophets from among you, made you kings, and granted you what He never granted any other people.

[5:21] "O my people, enter the holy land that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers."

[5:22] They said, "O Moses, there are powerful people in it, and we will not enter it, unless they get out of it. If they get out, we are entering."

[5:23] Two men who were reverent and blessed by GOD said, "Just enter the gate. If you just enter it, you will surely prevail. You must trust in GOD, if you are believers."

Those who are familiar with the Quran know that God promised the believers victory in this world and in the Hereafter. God also reminds us that victory comes only from God and not by turning our back to Him.

[b]The GUARANTEED VICTORY[/b]

The Quran teaches, unequivocally, that victory is GUARANTEED for the Muslims:

"We have decreed that the believers will be victorious." (30:47)

"We will positively grant victory to our messengers, and to those who believe, both in this life and on the day of resurrection." (40:51)

"God will support with victory those who support Him. God is powerful, Almighty." (22:40)

"God will surely defend those who believe. God does not like any betrayer, disbeliever." (22:38.)

"O you who believe, if you support God, He will grant you victory, and strengthen your foothold." (47:7)

God also reminded us that He does not break His promises.

[ar-Rum 30:6] Such is GOD's promise - and GOD never breaks His promise - but most people do not know.

In view of the guarantees shown in these Quranic verses, and since God is never wrong, the "Muslims" of today could not possibly be decent Muslims. They have broken their pledge to uphold God's commands in His sacred book, the Quran, and brought defeat and humiliation for themselves. Those of u that have the brains to define religion and culture will realise that in so-called muslim countries they both contradict each other in [b]EVERY SINGLE WAY[/b]..... and i am sure u all know that these so-called muslim countries put thier vile culture before thier perfect (but harsh) religion.

If God does not break a promise, then all these Muslim masses have to wake up to see what they have been doing wrong. Why they have got no victory for several centuries and there is no victory appearing in the near future . Why are they under continuous oppression, with no freedom , freedom to worship, freedom to choose their leaders, speak their minds or freely manage their properties.

Why do 6 million Israelis consistently defeat over 150 million Arabs???

Does it make any sense that 4 million Israelis should force almost 2 billion "Muslims" to accept their unacceptable terms?

Why does India consistently defeat Pakistan?

Why are the Muslims in Afghanistan defeated in every corner of their own country ?

Why are the Muslims around the world are the poorest, most oppressed, least advanced, least educated, most miserable.....etc...etc...etc.

Witnessing what has been happening to the Muslims around the globe and with these verses in mind we can easily recognize the great disaster they brought to themselves by deserting God's book for the sake of there stupid culture that received no support from God or His prophets and messengers. They deserted God and therefore He has deserted them. God also told us that His messenger will complain to Him on the Last Day from these Muslims;

[al-Furqan 25:30] The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted THIS Quran."

Most ppl i know are oblivous to the koran, don't get me wrong i am no expert, but whenever i have sympathy for saudi jews and chritians i get called a 'kafir' and i get called 'confused', when it is blatently against my religion to try and stop them practicing thier religion.

"Why do they not study the Quran? Or are their locks on their hearts?" (47:24)

there is also a verse in the koran which says;
"Do you only believe in part of the scripture" [can't remember where abouts it is] but the anwser to that question when talking about muslim countries is;

[b]A BIG FAT YES[/b]

St Mark,

Why don't Muslims have a right to be there?

"DTC" wrote:

St Mark,

Why don't Muslims have a right to be there?

DTC,

St Mark is talking about religious law. The bible clearly gives the Jews Israel - muslims are not the chosen people, they are not recognized in the bible as even existing thus the law of God does not give them Israel.

dave that is ur god and ur talking from the previous scripture :roll:

"Admin" wrote:

It says there was a sort of covenant.

if the jews follow it, they get Isrel. However they broke it repeatedly. They even killed some prophets that were sent.

So it does not say Israel is for the jews. It says it can be if they hold their side of the bargain up.