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[i]Psalm 2:7[/i] "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
Dave, do you believe that David p.b.u.h. was the Son of God too? not just that, but He was also 'begotten' ?
www.piczo.com/zikr
No - it's a prophecy of Christ being born into the House of David.
Augustus,
The reference to Muhammad(pbuh) (one of many) in the Bible is not a forgery, it is in the Song of Soloman. I can get u the reference if u want. Also, what about the reference from the Bible which says "the book is given to he that is not learned. I pray thee, read, and he says I am not learned". Here the Bible is prophesising the Holy Prophet(pbuh). And there were no Arabic Bibles in the 5th Century.
Again I dont know the reference off by heart but I can get it for you. ALSO, Jesus(pbuh) said "and I say unto you Jews, the Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" - could this be the Arabs by any chance?
It also mentions Makkah in the Bible (also called Baca) and that the religion will be spread across the world, like from the minerets of the mosques. What about Deut 18:18 : there are no 2 prophets more alike than Moses and Muhammad (pbut).
Jesus(pbuh) said "I can of myself do nothing" and in the Bible it said Jesus prayed, God prays to no one.
The media, government, tried to blow us, but they can't out the flame, or doubt the name.
It's easy to read into the Bible one's own expectations. An odd verse that you may think points to Muhammad is really not much use unless it is representative of a whole string of prophecies which do so. All that same I would be interested to see what this verse says.
The Bible does not predict specific prophets to come, there is the Messiah predicted and as far as i'm aware of that's it.
The reference you make about stripping the kingdom from the Jews was not about a physical kingdom. The Kingdom of God in the Bible refers to heaven and salvation, he was refering to the Old Covenant which was no longer of consequence once he came. The Kingdom of David is the Holy Land, which as a point of fact was already taken from the Jews (it was in Roman control).
I don't see what Deut 18:18 is indicative of. Muhammad was not from the line of Prophets, doesn't come from the Nation of Israel and his revelation is inconsistent with the Law of the Prophets through Christ. This is why he is not considered a prophet.
Mecca is not in the bible. Baca is the Valley of Baca, a valley en route to Jerusalem filled with Balsam trees. This is in Zion, not Arabia.
Finish John 5:30-32,
"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
31"If I alone bear witness of Myself, My testimony is not true.
32"There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the testimony which He bears of Me is true,"
It is about his unity and inseperation from the Father. It reiterates that God the Father and God the Son are united, and that God the father approves of his work.
And before you say it - it's capitalized "He" does not refer to a prediction of any prophet, he's talking about the Father.
It's very important to read biblical passages in full, in context and in context of their string of thought - this requires broad reading which is time consuming but lessons the chances of exegesis and misinterpretation.
i dont understand what is 'inconsistent' about the Quran besides the fact that it doesnt accept Christ as the 'Son of God'? :?
btw dave, plz can you explain the relation of Joseph 'the carpenter' to Mary (pbuh)?
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
"And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up; if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable." (1 Corinthians 15:14-19)
i'm keep out this topic just wana point out one thing, the ancient name for Mecca is Bacca. There are many Sirah books out there that still use the word Bacca. The Quran refers to it as Bacca:
3:96 Behold, the first Temple ever set up for mankind was indeed the one at Bakkah: [75] rich in blessing, and a [source of] guidance unto all the worlds,
...ah ofcourse and the fact that we dont believe he was crucified! :oops:
plz see my (edited) last post.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
lol that's not just it.
You don't believe he was a part of God, you don't believe his mission was to save the world from sin, you don't believe he was crucified, you don't believe he was dead and buried, you don't believe he was resurrected.
For us - he is "the point" of the Bible. It must be read in context of his life and teaching, because of the above.
Muhammad's "Isa" fulfills the worst fears of the disciples, it makes all of this meaningless. Given you believe he offers something different/better, for those of us to adhere to Christ it totally runs counter to what the Bible tells us.
we do believe that^.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
Not as I mean it.
He was her husband and the adoptive father of Jesus, Christians disagree on two points about their relationship.
1st whether it was ever consummated... there are two doctrines abuot the virgin mary "Virgin, ever Virgin" which is that she was a virgin her whole life - this is catholic. And was a virgin only until Christ's birth - that's the majority of Protestants.
This is important and relates to Joseph because of the second problem
Whether they had children of their own together. James specifically is called "the Brother of Christ," most Catholics hold that he is actually a step brother - a child of Joseph by another marriage, while Protestants hold he is the actual son of Mary and Joseph and thus a half brother.
It goes to church politics.
Not much is mentioned of Joseph after Jesus' ministry begins in fact I don't think anything is. He was a good man though, he cared for and protected his family, moving them to Egypt to protect Jesus and Mary.
I obviously can't speak for the Quran, but the Psalm 84 refers to the Valley of Baca - which means Balsam trees near Jerusalem.
It's not talking about Mecca, nor would it - we do not believe Mecca is an important location. In the old testament Abraham send Hagar and Ishmael off and does not go with them, nor does he build temples with them.
It would be a very large non-sequitur if a reference to Mecca or the Kabaa magically sprung up in the Psalms or some later part of the Bible.
do you know how Jesus p.b.u.h prayed to God? just like Muslims do now when we do [i]Sajdah[/i] isnt that a co-incidence
www.piczo.com/zikr
but where did he come from, how did he meet her etc.? there is no mention of him at all whatsoever in the Quran, so i was just wondering...
btw the catholic view of Mary (pbuh) is closer to the Islamic view.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
No more coincidental than noting the Sajdah is the similar position of conquered peoples on a battlefield in Egyptian writings.
It's a position of complete submission found throughout the entire area.
And he did not do the Sajdah, he prayed in a similar fashion.
but does he not come back to see them after some time?
we believe that he left them, and came back after some time (possibly years). it is then that along with the (grown up) Ishmael, he builds a 'temple', or, the Ka'abah.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
y, how do u mean it? :? we believe all Prophets came with the same mission - to save the world from sin and call them to the path of truth.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
His origins are a bit muddied, we don't know a great deal about him.
From the Gospel of Matthew (I think) we know that he is a descendant of Abraham through King David, and it gives a full list of his forefathers connecting him to Abraham.
A carpenter prince.
Here we go - the Gospel of Matthew:
Basically he was of the line of David, and is described as a man who really loved Mary - so much in fact he did not want to publicly embarass her when he found out she was pregnant (and was under the impression she had cheated on him).
Incidentally Verse 25 is what leads us protestants to doubt the Virgin ever Virgin doctrine. Also we believe James was the rightful half brother and prince of the Church after Christ, not Peter - if there should have even been one.
Matthew's later chapters describe how Herod ordered that all first borns be killed since he was afraid the Messianic birth would supplant his rule. In an attempt to save his family Joseph moved to Egypt. Herod eventually dies, Joseph is called by an Angel to return and Joseph and his family return from Egypt - a fulfillment (we believe) of the prophecy "out of Egypt I have called my son"
After that he basically fades away... It is assumed that Joseph loved Jesus considering how much he loved Mary, how dutifully he followed God's commandments, how hard he worked to protect his family, and the fact that Jesus became a carpenter - taking the profession of his adoptive father.
Consequently Joseph is the model father figure for us all.
The first two Chapters of Matthew and I think Luke tell the most about Joseph.
Jesus Mission wasn't just to bring the Word, he [i]is[/i] the Word. He came to save us from sin eternally by establishing a New Covenant, sealed with his crucifixion and resurrection.
Muslims at least as far as i'm aware, do you see Christ as bringing a "New Covenant" - it's not logically possible since you do not see his death or resurrection as ever having happened.
For us (like Corinthians above) that was the whole point of his life, mission and work.
In Genesis Ishmael and Hagar are a bit of a tragic pair of figures. Ishmael is given to Abraham because Sarah could not have children and Abraham was not patient with God. So God said that Ishmael was a sign that he was not deaf to Abraham's pleadings - but - he would be a very hostile angry person, wild and belligerent to all his neighbors.
Abraham, naturally a little displeased with God's sense of irony begged him for mercy for the child. God again heard him and decided to bless him and promised him that the child would be the father of a great nation of 12 tribes.
Christians, and I believe Jews also (100 can answer there) believe that Ishmael is the father of the Arabs and that is the nation God refers to.
Sarah eventually gives birth to Isaac, as God had promised and became jealous of Hagar - so Abraham was forced to send them both into the desert with food and water.
They went into the desert and came to a place where Hagar broke down and couldn't travel any further, she asked God for mercy and he gave her and Ishmael a well (which we call Bir lahai roi and you call Zamzam). After that they are pretty much never mentioned again except for a brief aside that Hagar finds Ishmael an egyptian wife and he becomes a soldier... I think.
Abraham does not see them after he expells them.
thats interesting. its almost like an overlapping with the story of Moses - Muslims believe that the Pharoah of the time ordered the killing of all baby boys from the Children of Israel, because he 'was afraid a Messianic birth would supplant his rule'.
so wait, the whole point of his life was to be crucified and eventually resurrected? :?
we do believe that^.
yup, Muslims also believe that Ishmael was the father of Arabs and Isaac the father of Jews.
that sounds like hebrew - is that what Jews call it as well?
wow, thats a pretty harsh depiction of Abraham... its not as if Hagar and Ishmael did anything wrong.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
Good point, never really considered that actually... the killing of first sons appears to be a running theme throughout the bible. Pharoah kills the jews, God kills Pharoahs, Herod kills the jews, our sins kill Gods.
For our sins and to establish a new covenant, yes.
In what way?
Yes, I don't recall the meaning... "well of X"
He was impatient with God's will, but God did not punish Hagar and Ishmael - they were protected by God and Ishmael's done pretty well for himself, if I do say so myself.
Which I am.
i dont get that last bit - y did he have to die for the covenant to be 'established'? wasnt it established in his lifetime, its what he called people to right?
well Muslims believe that every Prophet came, some with books of law, to lead people [i]back[/i] to the path of truth i.e. there was a time when those people's ancestors were on the right path, but over time they had gone astray. so we do believe that Jesus came with revelations from God, or a book of law, to replace/update that of the Jews.
ah, yes that makes sense - "Bi'r" (with the letter hamza in the middle) also means 'well' in arabic. now we just need 100 to tell us what 'lahai roi' means.
but didnt Sarah [i]ask[/i] Abraham to marry Hajar so he could have a son?
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
His death sealed the New Covenant - it was a divine reflection of the sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham which began the Old Covenant.
So why stop with Muhammad?
lol if it's any help I think its something along the lines of "vision of life" or something like that.
lol Ask is a very relative term here... the word from Greek was actually "gave." I suspect she "asked" in the same way Annette asked me to continue racing if I "really wanted to"
In other words "do it and you're in trouble"
the sacrifice of Isaac...?
if u mean why did God not continue to send Prophets after Mohammed (s.a.w), its because He revealed the Quran as an all-encompassing, complete book of law, which would be under His protection and therefore unchanged till the end of time. Also as shown in the following verse, Mohammed (s.a.w) was to be the 'Seal of the Prophets':
lol. well Muslims just dont see him as blameworthy... in the Quran, Allah (s.w.t) Himself gave Abraham (a.s) the title 'Khaleel-Allah', 'the Friend of Allah' which shows how close his relationship was with God, and so we believe he did not do anything to displease God.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
Augustus,
Altho u "answered" a couple of my questions, you didn't comment on -
Also, what about the reference from the Bible which says "the book is given to he that is not learned. I pray thee, read, and he says I am not learned". Here the Bible is prophesising the Holy Prophet(pbuh). And there were no Arabic Bibles in the 5th Century.
I also said that Jesus(pbuh) prayed, it mentions this in the Bible. I said God prays to no one. Your comment????
Basically, the Christians are idol worshippers bcoz they worship someone who they have seen, they have "seen" God. Whereas Muslims are not idol worshippers bcoz we "are those who believe in the unseen" as the Qur'an states. Who has the strongest faith?
Also, you say that Muhammad(pbuh) wasn't a prophet. Ok so how do you explain the Qur'an with all its amazing scientific facts? This proves that it is God's revelation to the final messanger.
Its either Islam or Christianity. We can't both be right.
The media, government, tried to blow us, but they can't out the flame, or doubt the name.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...811332,00.html
[b]Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible[/b]
"Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.
The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.
“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture.
The document is timely, coming as it does amid the rise of the religious Right, in particular in the US.
Some Christians want a literal interpretation of the story of creation, as told in Genesis, taught alongside Darwin’s theory of evolution in schools, believing “intelligent design” to be an equally plausible theory of how the world began.
But the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces”.
The document shows how far the Catholic Church has come since the 17th century, when Galileo was condemned as a heretic for flouting a near-universal belief in the divine inspiration of the Bible by advocating the Copernican view of the solar system. Only a century ago, Pope Pius X condemned Modernist Catholic scholars who adapted historical-critical methods of analysing ancient literature to the Bible.
In the document, the bishops acknowledge their debt to biblical scholars. They say the Bible must be approached in the knowledge that it is “God’s word expressed in human language” and that proper acknowledgement should be given both to the word of God and its human dimensions.
They say the Church must offer the gospel in ways “appropriate to changing times, intelligible and attractive to our contemporaries”.
The Bible is true in passages relating to human salvation, they say, but continue: “We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters.”
They go on to condemn fundamentalism for its “intransigent intolerance” and to warn of “significant dangers” involved in a fundamentalist approach.
“Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.”
Of the notorious anti-Jewish curse in Matthew 27:25, “His blood be on us and on our children”, a passage used to justify centuries of anti-Semitism, the bishops say these and other words must never be used again as a pretext to treat Jewish people with contempt. Describing this passage as an example of dramatic exaggeration, the bishops say they have had “tragic consequences” in encouraging hatred and persecution. “The attitudes and language of first-century quarrels between Jews and Jewish Christians should never again be emulated in relations between Jews and Christians.”
As examples of passages not to be taken literally, the bishops cite the early chapters of Genesis, comparing them with early creation legends from other cultures, especially from the ancient East. The bishops say it is clear that the primary purpose of these chapters was to provide religious teaching and that they could not be described as historical writing.
Similarly, they refute the apocalyptic prophecies of Revelation, the last book of the Christian Bible, in which the writer describes the work of the risen Jesus, the death of the Beast and the wedding feast of Christ the Lamb.
The bishops say: “Such symbolic language must be respected for what it is, and is not to be interpreted literally. We should not expect to discover in this book details about the end of the world, about how many will be saved and about when the end will come.”
In their foreword to the teaching document, the two most senior Catholics of the land, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, Archbishop of Westminster, and Cardinal Keith O’Brien, Archbishop of St Andrew’s and Edinburgh, explain its context.
They say people today are searching for what is worthwhile, what has real value, what can be trusted and what is really true.
The new teaching has been issued as part of the 40th anniversary celebrations of Dei Verbum, the Second Vatican Council document explaining the place of Scripture in revelation. In the past 40 years, Catholics have learnt more than ever before to cherish the Bible. “We have rediscovered the Bible as a precious treasure, both ancient and ever new.”
A Christian charity is sending a film about the Christmas story to every primary school in Britain after hearing of a young boy who asked his teacher why Mary and Joseph had named their baby after a swear word. The Breakout Trust raised £200,000 to make the 30-minute animated film, It’s a Boy. Steve Legg, head of the charity, said: “There are over 12 million children in the UK and only 756,000 of them go to church regularly.
That leaves a staggering number who are probably not receiving basic Christian teaching.”
BELIEVE IT OR NOT
UNTRUE
Genesis ii, 21-22
So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept he took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; and the rib which the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man
Genesis iii, 16
God said to the woman [after she was beguiled by the serpent]: “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
Matthew xxvii, 25
The words of the crowd: “His blood be on us and on our children.”
Revelation xix,20
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with brimstone.”
TRUE
Exodus iii, 14
God reveals himself to Moses as: “I am who I am.”
Leviticus xxvi,12
“I will be your God, and you shall be my people.”
Exodus xx,1-17
The Ten Commandments
Matthew v,7
The Sermon on the Mount
Mark viii,29
Peter declares Jesus to be the Christ
Luke i
The Virgin Birth
John xx,28
Proof of bodily resurrection"
__________________
welcome to the real world guys
www.piczo.com/zikr
lol wass you just proved my point about "debates" with Zakir Naik.
The majority of Christians do not believe in the absolute factual literal truth of the Bible.
It's an evangelist innovation.
lol Akbar, stop learning about the bible via islamic webpages and you won't make these kinds of mistakes.
Reading it [b]in context[/b] Isaiah is obviously talking about the prophet Amos.
Isaiah:
A goat herde-(a) who prided himself on "not being a Prophet" (a sort of trade at the time)-(b) who foretold the destruction of Israel-(c), and the scattering of the tribes-(d) because of the weight of their sins-(e) and told them that God was so angry he no longer listened to them or accepted their offerings-(f).
Amos was a prophet who was sent to Israel, while Isaiah was sent to Judah. They were contemporary/near contemporary Prophets somewhere in the late 8th Century.
721 B.C. Israel is finally conquered by the Assyrians and 10 tribes are carried off and dispersed - and have NEVER come back together.
As prophecised by both, prophecy complete.
Now - [i]you[/i] and the folks over at Answering-Christianity.com tell me how this is Muhammad if the angel Ariel had nothing to do with his ministry, if there was no "Kingdom of Israel" to come against, and most of all how Muhammad as a prophet scattered the [i]already scattered[/i] tribes of Israel.
You can't read this stuff out of context or you can come to come to conclusions you just want to hear. Not that I think you're actually reading it but rather mimicing islamic websites that think the bible proves islam.
lol Ackbar you overlook the extremely important fact that he prays to his Father. It's a prayer of communion, asking for the strength to do accomplish his mission.
I say God loves you, you tell me i'm an idol worshipper. I dunno "ackbar" who does have the strongest faith?
E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N.
Figure that one out and get back to me.
lol I just recently finished an article - it will (God willing) be in the next magazine.
Id like you to read it.
In fact i'd like you to memorize - verbatim.
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