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So he's next to you, and since he's everywhere he's next to me.
What's he doing with you?
5th time everywhere (next to me and yes next to you)
watching everything i do
i dont know what your getting at but can you hurry plz
www.piczo.com/zikr
So while hes with you watching everything youre doing, who's in heaven managing things there?
Allah almighty is
www.piczo.com/zikr
Does God, while hes up in heaven managing things know that simultaneously he is also with you right now watching everything you do?
yes of course..
ok you say i dont know what trinity is, please explain your concept of trinity. [b]where[/b] it originally came from and where Jesus actually talks about it.
www.piczo.com/zikr
Dave, Allah is not restricted in the ways us Humans are restricted.
Allah s.w.t created everything we see and do not see, for him to be bound by that he created is wrong.
Allah created time, but Allah is not restricted by time. Allah has knowledge of 'All things' past, present and future. He has control over all things, from the movement of galaxies, right through to the movement of sub-atomic particles.
He is the Greatest.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
im sure he knows that, thats why im just giving the few word answers
www.piczo.com/zikr
You guys are branching into a very complex discussion.
We believe that God is omnipresent….He is closer to us then our jugular vein.
He (swt) also is in the heaven and also descends down to the nearest heaven on the last part of every night…
He is with us via His Knowledge and His Mercy.
His existence and nature is beyond the comprehension of the human mind.
Good,
Now you understand the concept that one God can be in two different places functioning in two different ways, and one part functioning in a one place and capacity has knowledge that another part of him is in another place functioning in another capacity. God is no more subject to the laws of logic, than the laws of traffic.
[b]So where does the Trinity come from?[/b]
The Trinity is itself not a word you will find in the bible, and there is a reason for that. It is a model to explain a very confusing picture of God that the bible gives us. It applies pre Christian classical greek philosophy and logic to do so. The purpose of the Trinity is to understand God, therefore we do not believe in "the Trinity" but rather we believe in what the Trinity seeks to explain. So first let's look at the problem,
[b]There is only one God[/b]
From the Adam to Abraham, Moses and Jesus the consistent message has been "there is one God." "Hear oh Israel the Lord our God is one Lord" (Deut. 6:4) There is no other god before God "I am the Lord your God ... you shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:2-3). God has no equal “I am the Lord that is my name; my glory I give to no other” (Isa. 42:8}.
[b]Jesus as “the Son” or “the Word”[/b]
On the other hand we have Jesus Christ of Nazareth who the bible tells us is “Son of God” “from the Father” and is “the Word” (John 1:14). And this Jesus of Nazareth acts with the authority of the Son of God (Mark 5:1-20). From John Ch 1, we are told that Jesus Christ is “the Word” which was not created but rather was always “with” God, which “became flesh” and was sent by “the Father”
[b]The Holy Spirit:[/b]
The Holy Spirit is another aspect of God we know is “sent” and not created by God (2 Cor 3:3, John 20:22, and Isaiah 48:16) and was always “with” God. The Holy Spirit we know is sent by God to work in us (Acts 2:4)
[b]The Father, Son and Holy Spirit as distinct and aware of each other:[/b]
We call these aspects of God “distinct” because we see them operating at the same time, in different places and in different ways even though they are fully aware of each other. Jesus Christ is aware of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4-8), God the Father is aware of his Son “the Word” (Luke 3: 21-22), and Jesus Christ is aware of his Father (Luke 22:42).
[b]The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God:[/b]
While it is tempting to say that these are “three Gods” we are told by the Bible that they are One unified God “the Father and I are one” (John 10:30), and that "in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9)
[b]In Summary:[/b]
We have One God, with three “distinctions” observed by their interaction with Humanity, and their relationship with each other within the Trinity. These distinctions are one, yet aware of each other.
It is difficult to think of God like this, since it is extremely complicated. Consequently a model for understanding the nature of God (as best as that can be done) is necessary. This model is the Trinity. The Trinity is not God – everything scriptural I wrote above is God, or rather the description of God which God gave us, the Trinity simply tries to explain all of the above for easier comprehension.
[b]The Trinity Doctrine[/b]
This is where the classical Greek philosophy enters into the pictures as well as what you referred to as the “persons.” The Trinity argues that God is one, because all of the distinctions (which the Trinitarian argument calls “personae”) within what it calls “the Godhead” are of the same substance, essence, being and nature called “homousia.” The point of the Trinity is that the personae reflect the distinctions within the Trinity, the homousia reflects the inseparable oneness of it and the Godhead represents the thing itself “God.”
There are and have been other models for understanding God, Arianism, Modalism and Reflection are all models which at some point the Church or some lesser part of it has briefly adhered to, as a way to understand these concepts.
Contrary to what you might have been told we did not “elect” Jesus to be the Son of God, or any of the concepts outlined above at Nicaea – rather we chose one model for understanding God (the Trinity), over another Model (Arianism) which sought to answer the same question.
The question is “What does God, in all his forms and actions look like.” It attempts to capture the whole picture of a God who reigns in heaven, walks on Earth, and acts in all of us, all at the same time, rather than the predecessor Olympian Gods like Zeus who where little more than human beings with super powers, who were not all encompassing but rather were or were not at any given location at any given time.
We are made in God’s image; he is not made in ours.
"And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up; if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable." (1 Corinthians 15:14-19)
If you believe in that as true, then why when it comes to Muhammad (sas) you disbelieve? i mean the Bible even says (i havnt got the exact quote) that we will send another prophet who will guide mankind.. until the end of time.
< something like that.. what do you say about that? do you ignore that bit and think no1 else will come after Jesus (pbuh)
www.piczo.com/zikr
Muhammad specifically rejected the divinity of Christ, the Crucifixion of Christ, the purpose of Christ's mission, and the Resurrection of Christ.
If he did so under the guise of "there is one God" it doesn't mean he was a prophet or carried the Law of the Prophets, anyone can and very often does use parts of the Law of the Prophets to justify irreligious and wrong things.
As for that second bit it sounds like you are referring to a quote from the "Gospel" of Barnabas, a non canonical "testament" which is believed to be a Turkish forgery from the 15th century.
In it, Christ says there will be another and I think identifies them directly as Muhammad.
Other than that i'm not aware of any references to another in the present Canon.
Other than Christ's hinting at the possibility of new messengers when he warned the disciples against false prophets, and his own promise to return.
your explanation of the trinity was quite good. BUT the things is every time i ask someone you get some total diferent answers.. maybe they believe in different things as you alltogether.,.,
btw, would a catholic see the trinity the same as how you just described it? how do they differ to the others and do you class them as christians too?
thnx
www.piczo.com/zikr
The problem has to do with education. Most Christians are not taught about the Trinity believe it or not. If they are given any explanation at all it's a watered down ridiculous allegory about an egg or water.
"Well you see the trinity is like an egg, there is a shell a yolk and a white and they are all the same egg"
"Water can be ice and steam"
...whatever.
All hail the great egg!
So while most Christians would not have a problem with me saying "the father son and holy spirit are one" "Jesus is the Son" "Jesus is God" they would probably find my explanation of the trinity a little too scholarly to understand. However the scholars would give you my explanation if you drove them to it.
Actually - email a bishop online, they are usually rather approachable. Send him my explanations and ask what aspects he agrees and disagrees with. My explanation is naturally infused with reform protestant beliefs but in general he shouldn't find anything in there terribly out of the ordinary.
There is an excellent book called "Christian Doctrine" by Shirley Guthrie if you are interested, roughly the same explanation however he doesn't explain the greek philosophy part as well as I did (if I do say so myself).
Encyclopedias would probably carry that definition or a similar one - minus the textual grounding... just explaning the ding an sich, "homousia" "godhead" et al.
lol thank you Dust.
And with that - i'm opening this series up to everyone since i'm sure there are a few questions which may have mounted over our discussion.
are the rest of us allowed to comment/ask questions yet...?
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
lol looks like my last post was a minute too late...
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
ur post was filled with quotes, which got me thinking: do u know them by heart i.e. were they off the top of ur head, if so did u have Religous Studies lessons in school or something...?
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
lol no, i'm afraid I am not Zakir Naik and do not claim to have memorized any large swaths of the bible.
There are a couple passages like "as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death ... " and "this is my beloved son" et cetera which anybody who watches an excessive number of movies (or heard coolio) would know.
I've read the bible cover to cover.
It was boring - I gotta admit, though many parts were interesting.
Proverbs gets tedious...
Anyway, you get these general impressions in your mind of what the strings of thought are. This is reinforced by teachings in church and independent study, but recalling an actual quote is difficult.
Finding an actual passage on demand is simply a matter of googling after that.
is there any one who knows the full Bible by heart? :? just a question out of the blue really..
www.piczo.com/zikr
I'm sure somebody has that little free time. lol in all honesty i've heard there are ethiopians who have memorized it.
The problem though comes down to [i]which[/i] Bible. Bible, from the greek "Biblios" which meant library.
It's a [i]collection[/i] of books, the various prophecies and accounts of prophets accrued over a good 2/3000 year period beginning somewhere in the 2nd millenium BC; then translated, recompiled, written down and trasferred orally over another thousand or two years.
Not all of the Christian churches use the same "Canon" or collection of books considered "inspired"
The Protestant Reform churches all have 66 books in the Canon, the Catholics have an additional 15 books, the Syrian Orthodoxy has the fewest number of books in its Canon, while the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has the most (in both the OT and NT).
It's literally a matter of how many (and which) books are on the shelf.
Therefore a Syrian Orthodox and an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian could both memorize the Bible, but that might mean variation in the books memorized.
Jesus (pbuh) is referred to as "a Word from God" in the Quran as well!
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
probably because He p.b.u.h carried the'word' that there is No God but Allah and 'La Ilah Ha Illah Huwa' None has the right to be worshiped but He
www.piczo.com/zikr
I highly doubt it's for the same reason, the "Word" is actually shortened for "the Word of God" or "the living Word of God," and is tied intimately and directly to why he is the divine "Son of the Most High" and a part of the one God.
This goes to why we call Jesus the "Son" a a title which he was called both by God the Father and men during his ministry.
As the living Word, a part of God (which is called the "Logos" in the Trinitarian model) which God loves sent down to take human form and live among us, he therefore is distinguished by his "filial nature" to the father. You can't think of Son the way say you, Wass, are your father's son. Rather it goes to his distinction within the Trinity.
One of the problems I have with Dr. Campbell's work and the people over at Answering Islam is that they pretend the Qur'an [u][b]only[/b][/u] bars the Trinitarian model (they then prompty offer the absurd argument the Qur'an is barring a Trinity that includes a [url=http://www.answering-islam.org/Mna/trinity.html]divine Mary[/url], so Muhammad is therefore compatible with the Bible), when in fact the Biblical concepts Trinity seeks to explain are also barred.
As a general note it seems like the Qur'an tries to answer the Trinity itself and each member as well as their unity and relationship to one another directly, which indicates some level of comprehension of the concept.
The Trinity doctrine itself is directly addressed in Surat 4:171 the concept is singled out by name and barred. That's only one example naturally but like with my biblical "lines of logic" it's meant to be representative of flowing themes i've read throughout the Qur'an.
Jesus as the Son is directly singled out as "the Son of Mary" and "not the Son of God" in Surat 5:75. His communion with the Father (the "filial" nature which binds him to the Father, and the Father to him) also in 4:171 "far exalted is He above having a Son."
I think the Qur'an also tries to answer the "person" of the Holy Spirit and its relationship within the Trinity in two ways. First by explaining part of the title belongs to the Angel Jibreel, then by explaining a similar concept - though not the same, applies to Christ "Ruh-Allah" which was described in 21:91 among other places. Thereby attempting to answer for both the "person" of the Holy Spirit, as well as its connection within the Trinity, by explaining these are two ideas which have possibly been muddied by the Gospels.
Therefore unlike Campbell's assertion (Father, Son and Mary) it would seem to me the Qur'an is addressing the Trinity Doctrine directly rather than some sort of misunderstood permutation. That should be fairly obvious to any Christian who has actually read the Qur'an, who has a good background in the Trinity Doctrine and an eye toward trying to understand the Qur'an's logic. I get the feeling Campbell et al, have not however that is generally consistent with my view that all evangelicals everywhere are epistemologicaly and theosophically bankrupt. A child could debate such a man.
By conjuring up an argument that the Qur'an sees the Trinity as "Father, Son and Wife" then answering that argument with several pounds of paperwork, they are mostly just exercising their own stupidity. Either that or rather cowardly attempting to debate themselves and present it as a dialogue.
no wass, its not for that reason. 'Eesa (a.s) was referred to as "a Word from God" because Allah said "Be!", and he was:
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
I noticed that it's "a" Word, "from" God.
In the Bible Jesus is "the" Word "of" God. I obviously can't speak for the arabic but the greek is clearly in the possessive.
One is trying to reinforce the idea of "messenger carrying message" the other is "the living message"
Or so it seems to me.
yea, in the Quran it says 'kalimatin min Allah' which literally means 'a word from God'.
thats an interesting interpretation about it showing that Jesus (pbuh) was a 'messenger carrying a message', but i guess the Quran's use of 'a word' as opposed to 'the word' shows that the 'words' of Allah are limitless and cannot be wittled down to one alone.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
So if Jesus is the Son or Word, and the Son is one [i][b]part of[/b][/i] the three, then God is not ONE but a third...isnt it? ( 33.33333333 % of God )
If you think im being sarcastic im not, just trying to make sense but its not no matter which way i look at it
www.piczo.com/zikr
Well that gets back to the earlier point we made that God can be in different places, acting for different purposes with two different mindsets - yet aware of himself being in both.
The three "persons" of the Trinity are not seperate thirds that together make the whole. Rather they are distinctions and aspects of the same unified God that we are able to identify.
The "living Word" is literally God's "Word" - his thoughts, "Logos" taken form in Jesus Christ.
It's just another part of God that we see.
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