i apologise. i have problems.

Salam

"Beast" wrote:

I know that there is a tendency to go off-topic, but how did this thread turn into something about Shias?

"Med" wrote:

i apologise. i have problems.

No. You have only one problem. And I have made that clear to you on many occasions.

If you want to diss the shi'ites, then thats your right. Its a free country. But please create a new thread for it.

Here, we are talking about sleeping monkeys who have not fully evolved.

Omrow

Beast; he quoted a hadith (which was offtopic anyway...) and I asked him to provide a reference (as they always should be given with a reference).

Apparently that then went about an anti-shia rant.

The internet is not shia controlled.

Anyone can post anything on the net. There is no editorial control over the internet(unless someone posts something which is ilegal in both the persons country, aswell as the country in which the files are hosted...).

"Med" wrote:

You will it very difficult to find literature exposing the fallacy of the shias on the internet and also very few english books are available in this.

It is not necessary that ahadeeth which are not found in the major books are necessarily not true. It will be a while for me to find the relevant references, this is not made easy by the fact that quite a few of the ahadeeth were narrated to us by visiting ulama and my memory is not good to have remembered the narration fully.

I seek ALLAH's forgiveness.

But one point, if the lady wishes to make friends with shia and call them your brothers/sisters in faith then you are most welcome. I only pass on the message to the best of my ability.

:shock: whoa! wot the heck?!

1. wot on earth did i do to bring on this shi'a-related rant?

2. wot has this got to do with homosexuality...?

3. u cant seriously believe that there isnt any anti-shi'a literature on the internet? if u look hard enough on the net, u can find just about anything. and there are plenty of anti-shi'a books, i have read some, thank you. :roll:

Regarding Anti-Shia books - thers a Shia books shop near my uni, they have all kinda shia books, they mite en have anti shia one's.....

...Oh,Wait a minute :oops:

Whats with all the Shia bashing??

Can we pls leave that at the doorstep.

Im sure theres something in the revival rules about it.

"Seraphim" wrote:

Whats with all the Shia bashing??

no-one is shia bashing...

med just gave his best reference relating to cursing those who abuse the sahaabah..

however off the topic

Homosexuality as a genetic/physical condition is scientifically and logically impossible.

The theory of natural selection goes that the more adapted organism will survive.

With the two choices between an organism that is not likely to have offspring and one that is likely to have offspring, the latter has a greater chance of surviving.

Scientists say homosexuals can change 'If they want to'. That to me means it is accepted as a non-physical illness.

What can we do about it? nothing. They have rights just like us.

What should we do? keep our position public and open. Let everyone know what the Islamic view is.

We should condemn their activities and say it for what it is, an abomination.

We should make clear that homosexuality and homosexuals have no place in islaam.

Those who have these tendencies should be told that it is not necessarily cos they bad people but just that that is the whispering of the devil and they should be told that the door of repentance is ALWAYS open for them.

We should make clear that in islaam they deserve death penalty.

But most importantly is that we have to warn our young people about how evil all this is.

Today the lines which exist between males and females no longer exist.

Men imitate women, they shave, they wear jewellery, they have their clothing dragging on the floor. The men have imitated the fashion of women.

Women imitate men, they wear mens clothing, they cut their hair, they wear their dress above the ankles.

The muslims by and large have imitated the kuffar and have adopted their ways and hence they undoubtedly also have this disease of homosexuality in them because it is a natural consequence of imitating the opposite sex.

Hence, today I say with full confidence that if our youth follow the western fashions and ways of life then no doubt somewhere there also exists this homosexual inclination.

Hence, the communtity must not shirk away from its responsibilities and must guard the youth, make the men behave like men, and make the women behave like women.

However, I have no hope in this. It has been prophecised that this Ummah will imitate the nations which came before handspan for handspan, armlength for armlength and so it must come to pass. They accepted the homosexuals and it is destined that this ummah will accept them aswell, they engaged in these activites and it is destined that some from this ummah will engage in these activities.

Our job is to promote the virtue and prevent the vice, and leave the rest to ALLAH.

Fitnah has come every where and none are safe.

May ALLAH keep us in His blanket of protection.
ameen

"Med" wrote:

Fitnah has come every where and none are safe.

May ALLAH keep us in His blanket of protection.
ameen

AMEEN

It is possible for someone to have only a homosexual state of mind. A person may feel attracted to the opposite sex but not pursue these feelings physically.
- This is where the homosexuality would count as a mental defect and would require treatment.

It is also possible for someone to engage in homosexual acts whilst still being hetrosexual.
- This is a perversion. This is the sin.

Salaam

"Umar" wrote:

Admin, I'm afraid I don't agree with you (or whoever you got this research from) regarding homosexuality being a physical/genetic condition I think thats a load of rubbish!

I think Admin was saying the opposite of the above ^^^^

"Admin" wrote:

[b]Homosexuality as a genetic/physical condition is scientifically and logically impossible[/b].
The theory of natural selection goes that the more adapted organism will survive.

With the two choices between an organism that is not likely to have offspring and one that is likely to have offspring, the latter has a greater chance of surviving.

Scientists say homosexuals can change 'If they want to'. That to me means it is accepted as a non-physical illness.

Wasalaam

"Beast" wrote:

It is possible for someone to have only a homosexual state of mind. A person may feel attracted to the opposite sex but not pursue these feelings physically.
- This is where the homosexuality would count as a mental defect and would require treatment.

It is also possible for someone to engage in homosexual acts whilst still being hetrosexual.
- This is a perversion. This is the sin.

Yes. Having homosexual thoughts does not necessarily mean that the person is perverted. If these thoughts come unintentionally and the person abhors them and does not ponder over them then it is nothing more than a devilish whisper. The devil whispers all the time, sometimes whispers to thieve, sometimes to murder, sometimes to gaze at women, sometimes to gaze at men.

The perversion is when the male sits and entertains these whisperings. THEN that man is a pervert and has problems.

Second point is also interesting. I think it links with cultural perspective. In places like pakistan I have noted that things which I view as homosexual are seen as ok.

Example.

I really do NOT like kusray. For those who dont know, the majority of kusray were born normal boys and then either by choice or in childhood were castrated and became kusray. There are some who are born with genetic disorders which makes determining their gender problematic but these are naturally very rare and the majority of kusray are men who had operation done to become ''women''.

Now these kusray are sex-workers, they dance at weddings and are paid by men for services. This for me is totally disgusting. I cant believe how the ulama of pakistan can let these perverts live. I expressed my disgust to relatives and was promptly scolded for not being culturally clued up. I objected to giving them money at weddings/births etc and was again reprimanded and told that this is their halal income.

For me this is disgusting and I cant believe or accept it. But in pakistani culture they are accepted as normal and are not really shunned or thought of as wrong.

i thought these hermaphrodites? in pakistan ALL real, astagfirullah they are jokers and funny entertainers...last time i went pakistan one called me to sit next to him i was proper scared ..family forced me to listen to whatever they say.

mum also says they have no other way to earn money SO we should give it to them..and if they curse you its most likely ALLAHs gonna listen to them.

however i did not know some be fake if not ALL. cant believe PPL actually go to these extents to earn money.

the term 'kusray' crack me up

The issue is clear, they're method of earning is totally wrong:

1. First if we look at the ones who are actually born with problems. In Islam they are to adopt the manners and behaviour of the sex which is mor dominant, and if neither is more dominant then they should choose one gender and stick with it. If they adopt the mans gender then they must work and earn their own living. If they adopt the womens gender they must be veiled and not dance and prostitute themselves.

2. Secondly lets look at those who have themselves castrated or are castrated in childhood. Even then they cannot dance and provide promiscuous services.

I know what thes pakis say, my own family say they normal and they a part of paki culture. I say that is a load of filth and rubbish. I'm very paki in my soch in a a lot of things but when things abt paki culture go against islam then I HATE that thing. I hate this acceptance of these people.

The other thing people fear their curses and you're saying that you heard ALLAH is more likely to listen to their curses is actually not from islam. I remember reading quite a while back that these type of people were accepted as part of hindu society and even hindu religion. I believe they are called the third sex in the hindu holy scripts and their apparent physical ambiguity is in lieu of them having special powers to bless and curse people. This fear of them and their tongues is the result of hindu philosophy and the hindu concept of these people. I went pak, I didnt give any money to them, they cursed at me and my relatives were like oh no dnt let them curse you and were giving em money. I go I aint scared of their curses.

Load of cobblers.

Hai tere chehre par keeray paren, hai tu yahan par hi marey, hai tu london ponchne se pehle beemar par jay. blah blah blah.

"Med" wrote:

We should make clear that in islaam they deserve death penalty.

dont the four schools of thought differ on the penalty...i think the hanafis are not for death penalty...correct me if i am wrong,

"naj" wrote:

"Med" wrote:

We should make clear that in islaam they deserve death penalty.

dont the four schools of thought differ on the penalty...i think the hanafis are not for death penalty...correct me if i am wrong,

I dunno, but that is not the wise way to proceed.

when we talk about thieves, we do not say 'chop off his hand'. We say it is not allowed in Islam.

Always leave the punishment to the authorities. We cannot carry out any punishment as vigilante's, so why get caught up in it?

(and Umar, I said [b]impossible[/b]. Do not always discount science. Thanks fatima...])

Umar you make it sound as if you are about to launch a crusade against homosexuality?

All we should do is hold down pur position, and make sure others cannot tamper with it, as some have done with the christian position.

I wasnt aware the ulama of ahnaaf didnt believe that homosexuality is a capital crime.

According to my limited, certainly the ulama of afghanistan and parts of pakistan are of the opinion that it is deserving death, they only differ on the method. Some opine it is to be by flinging from a mountain or tall building and others hold the opinion it should by crushing under a wall/house.

And these ulama are amongst the stringent hanafi ulama.

"Med" wrote:

I wasnt aware the ulama of ahnaaf didnt believe that homosexuality is a capital crime.

According to my limited, certainly the ulama of afghanistan and parts of pakistan are of the opinion that it is deserving death, they only differ on the method. Some opine it is to be by flinging from a mountain or tall building and others hold the opinion it should by crushing under a wall/house.

And these ulama are amongst the stringent hanafi ulama.

You see the thing is... I agree with you... but as naj stated there MAY be a diference of opinion that we have not come across yet.

Either way, just as we do not go around shouting off with their hands in discussions of stealing, but rather that it is islamically unacceptable, we should do the same on this subject. If we are asked about punishment, then by all means say that in an Islamic state, the Qadi may well demand the death penalty.

The decision is one that must be made by a qadi, and not mob rule. It does not really concern us either way, as we are not in an islamic state. What does concern us is the Islamic position. That is homosexuality is totally unacceptable within islam.

"Med" wrote:

We should condemn their activities and say it for what it is, an abomination.

We should make clear that homosexuality and homosexuals have no place in islaam.

Those who have these tendencies should be told that it is not necessarily cos they bad people but just that that is the whispering of the devil and they should be told that the door of repentance is ALWAYS open for them.

We should make clear that in islaam they deserve death penalty.

But most importantly is that we have to warn our young people about how evil all this is.

Today the lines which exist between males and females no longer exist.

Men imitate women, they shave, they wear jewellery, they have their clothing dragging on the floor. The men have imitated the fashion of women.

Women imitate men, they wear mens clothing, they cut their hair, they wear their dress above the ankles.

The muslims by and large have imitated the kuffar and have adopted their ways and hence they undoubtedly also have this disease of homosexuality in them because it is a natural consequence of imitating the opposite sex.

Hence, today I say with full confidence that if our youth follow the western fashions and ways of life then no doubt somewhere there also exists this homosexual inclination.

Hence, the communtity must not shirk away from its responsibilities and must guard the youth, make the men behave like men, and make the women behave like women.

However, I have no hope in this. It has been prophecised that this Ummah will imitate the nations which came before handspan for handspan, armlength for armlength and so it must come to pass. They accepted the homosexuals and it is destined that this ummah will accept them aswell, they engaged in these activites and it is destined that some from this ummah will engage in these activities.

Our job is to promote the virtue and prevent the vice, and leave the rest to ALLAH.

Fitnah has come every where and none are safe.

May ALLAH keep us in His blanket of protection.
ameen

I agree admin.

I know before I said I wouldnt have a problem with vigilante attacks, and infact I stand by that but that doesnt mean Im all up for going out and gaybashing.

I think my above post which I have quoted again puts my view across as well as I can.

"Admin" wrote:

"Med" wrote:

[b]I wasnt aware [/b]the ulama of ahnaaf didnt believe that homosexuality is a capital crime.

You see the thing is... I agree with you... but as naj stated there MAY be a diference of opinion that we have not come across yet.

I have not stated that there is no difference of opinion, I read naj's post, and responded that I wasnt aware of such a difference existing amongst the ulama of ahnaaf. There may well be a difference but I am unaware of it in hanafi madhab.

Please note (addressed generally) that I dont know what the other three madhaahib rule on this issue, my post was based on what I know of the hanafi approach and the difference in regard to the punishment which exists among the hanafi ulama, TO MY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE, is abt method of death.

The reason for this difference of opinion is as follows.

When the destruction came upon the sodomites the city was lifted up and was so high that the voices of the people could be heard in the lowest paradise. Then the city was inverted and it came crashing down to the earth, also stones rained on the people and each had his own allocated stone and the decree of ALLAH came to pass.

According to my lessons, the punishment is agreed viz death because this is the punishment meted out to the sodomites and also at the same time there are ahadeeth which order death aswell as the sunnah of the Sahabah Karaam in this regard.

So it is that the punishment is death.

The ulama differ on what caused the death, was it the crashing down from such a great height or was it the invertion of the city and the being crushed under the city and under the stones?

Those who opine that it was due to crashing down from height advise the flinging from a tall building or mountain.
Those who hold the opinion that it was the invertion of the city and the pelting with stones which was cause of death recommend that a wall or building be toppled ontop of the criminal.

Alhamdulillah. And ALLAH knows best.

as far as i was concerned some hanafi ulama say the homosexual should be given harsh beatings and when given a chance to repent- they carry on doing this sin then they should be given maximum death penalty.

however the ulama have ikhtilaafs...but if majority of the ulama are for death penalty then im certainly with them,

the muslim gays are clearly an insult to the rest of the muslims and should not be let of lightly but given the maximum penalty,so the remaining gay thinking monkeys will start to think twice...and repent,

muslim countrys are just being blinded by the western 'freemindedness',which in reality is western 'stupidity' for giving equal rights...

the taliban defo had their good ways.

"naj" wrote:

the taliban defo had their good ways.

SubhanALLAH!