You wrote:

Do you disagree with it?

i am a open minded muslim not a blind one who follows their scholars blindly, when i research into things i go into it with the possiblity of being either way, so i need the reference to see the truth.

no different to the time i heard about mawlid for the first time, i didnt know whether it was haram or halal, i went to find out about it open minded, knowing it could be one or the other, and when i saw the evidences i knew it was haram and no chance for it to be right.

sufis are well known for their cutting and pasting scholars quotes, its quite obvious none o0f yousd even read the book of ibn tamiyyah, cause if you had you qwouldve known what you posted is only a opart of his FULL quote, you jsut took out a bit and showing that, its like saying laillaha nad then cutting out illallahu, by doing that you changed the whole meaning.

Now to show you ibn tamiyyahs original quote:

Misquoting Imam Ibn Taymiyyah (ra)

QUOTE
Dear brothers,

I've noticed that a lot of Sufi sites like this one are misquoting Ibn Taymiyyah's view on Mawlid. This has been done by this brother here on SunniForum as well:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showpost.p...amp;postcount=6

And this intentional misquote is being used on many popular "anti-Wahhabi" websites. Many of them are considered reputable by Sufis. You can see Ibn Taymiyyah [ra] being misquoted on these Sufi sites:

QUOTE
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/verdict.htm [Nuh Keller's site]

http://www.sunnah.org/publication/mawlid.htm

http://www.abc.se/~m9783/ibaz_e.html [GF Haddad's site]

They quote Ibn Taymiyyah [ra] as saying:

QUOTE
Originally Posted by Masud.co.uk

Ibn Taymiya, for instance, the medieval scholar of Syria, wrote:

To celebrate and to honour the birth of the Prophet, and to take it as an honoured season, as some of the people are doing, is good, and in it there is a great reward, because of their good intentions in honouring the Prophet

And the Sunni Forum brother quoted Ibn Taymiyyah as such, with a great big ellipses in the middle of the quote (!!!) :

QUOTE
Ibn Taymiyya: "The innovated festivities of time and place" (ma uhditha min al-a´yad al-zamaniyya wa al-makaniyya): And similarly what some people innovate by analogy with the Christians who celebrate the birth of Jesus, or out of love for the Prophet and to exalt him, and Allah may reward them for this love and effort... To celebrate and to honor the birth of the Prophet and to take it as an honored season, as some of the people are doing, is good and in it there is a great reward, because of their good intentions in honoring the Prophet.

Now let us see why this is a deliberate misquote.

In actuality, Ibn Taymiyyah [ra] was OPPOSED to Mawlid, he DETESTED it, thought it was bidah, likened it to what the Christians do, said the evil outweighs the good, and said that a true believer would never celebrate it.

The FULL QUOTE of what Ibn Taymiyyah [ra] said:

QUOTE
"…because the Eeds are legislated laws from amongst the laws, so it is necessary to follow them, and not to innovate them, and the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wasallam) had many lectures, treaties, and great events that happened on a number of (documented) days such as the Day of Badr, Hunain, al-Khandaq, the Conquest of Mecca, the occurrence of his hijrah, his entry to Madeenah…and none of this necessitated that these days be taken as days of Eed. Rather this sort of thing was done by the Christians who took the days in which great events happened to Jesus as eeds, or by the Jews. Indeed the Eed is a legislated law, so what Allaah legislates is followed, otherwise do not innovate in this religion that which is not part of it.

And like this is what some of the people have innovated, either in opposition to the Christian celebration of the birthday of Jesus, or out of love for the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wasallam) and in honour of him. And Allaah will reward them for this love and ijtihaad, but NOT FOR THE BID’AH of taking the day of the birth of the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wasallam) as an eed - this along with the difference of the people as to when he was born. For indeed this (celebration) was not done by the salaf, despite the existence of factors that would necessitate it and the lack of any factors that would prevent them from doing so if it were indeed good. And if this was genuinely good or preferable then the salaf, may Allaah be pleased with them, would have more right to doing so then us, for they had more severe love and honour of the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wasallam) in following him, obeying him, and following his command, and reviving his sunnah inwardly and outwardly, and spreading that which he was sent with, and performing jihaad for this in the heart, with the hand and upon the tongue. So indeed this was the way of the Saabiqeen al-Awwaleen from the Muhajiroon and the Ansaar, and those that followed them in good.

And you will find the majority of these (who celebrate the birthday) in ardent desire of these sort of innovations - alongwith what they have of good intention and ijtihaad for which reward is hoped for - but you would find them feeble in following the command of the Messenger, that which they have been commanded to be eager and vigorous in, indeed they are of the position of one who adorns the Mushaf but does not read what is in it or reads what is in it but does not follow it. Or the position of one who decorates the mosques but does not pray in them, or prays in them rarely…

And know that from the actions are those that have some good in them, due to their including types of good actions and including evil actions such as innovation etc. So this action would be good with respect to what it includes of good and evil with respect to what it contains of turning away from the religion in it’s totality, as is the state of the hypocrites and faasiqeen. This has what has afflicted the majority of the ummah in the later times. So upon you is two manners (of rectification):

1. that your desire be to follow the sunnah inwardly and outwardly, with respect to yourself specifically and those that follow you, and you enjoin the good and forbid the evil.

2. that you call the people to the sunnah in accordance to ability, so if you were to see someone doing this (celebration) and he were to not leave it except for an evil greater than it, then do not call him to leaving the evil so that he may perform something more evil than this….[a page omitted in which he explains this principle]

So honouring the mawlid, and taking it as a festive season (mawsam) which some of the people have done, there is a great reward in it due to the good intention and the honouring of the Messenger (sallallaahu `alaihi wasallam) because of what I have previously stated to you - that it is possible that something be good for some of the people and be denounced/considered to be ugly by the strict believer. This is why it was said to Imaam Ahmad about some of the leaders, that he spent 1000 dirhams upon the mushaf or similar to this. So he replied, ‘leave them, for this is better than them spending it on gold (jewellery).’ This despite the fact that the madhhab of Imaam Ahmad was that it is abhorrent to decorate the mushafs, and some of the companions (of Ahmad) interpreted this to mean that the money was spent in renewing the pages and writing. But this is not the intent of Ahmad here,his intention here was that this action had a benefit in it, and it also contained corruption due to which it became abhorrent. But these people, if they did not do this, would have substituted this for a corruption that contained no good whatsoever, for example spending upon one of the books of evil…"

[Iqtidaa Siraat al-Mustaqeem 2/618+ my copy has the tahqeeq of Shaykh Naasir al-Aql]

He says in another place of the same book,

QUOTE
"there is no doubt that the one who practices these - i.e. the innovated festive seasons - either the mujtahid or muqallid will have the reward for his good intention and the what the action contains of legislated actions, and will be forgiven for what it contains of innovation if his ijtihaad or taqleed contains one of the excuses (that would lift this sin from him)…."

Ibn Taymiyyah continues:

QUOTE
"But this does not prevent one from detesting and prohibiting it and to replace it with a legislated action containing no bid'ah.... Just as the Jews and Christians may find benefit in their worship because it is possible that their worship includes an aspect of what is legislated but this does not necessitate that you perform their actions of worship or you report their words because all of the innovations contain evil that outweighs their good, this due to the fact that if their good outweighed the evil then why would the Sharee'ah have disregarded it? So we depend upon the fact that it's sin is greater than it's benefit and this necessitates forbiddance."

He continues:

QUOTE
"And I say: it's sin is removed from some of the people due to the reason of ijtihaad or other than it, as the sin of usury and alcohol (from dates) which has been differed about (by the salaf) is removed from the salaf (who allowed it), then despite this it is necessary to explain it's condition and not to follow those that considered it permissible.... So this is sufficient evidence in explaining that these innovations include corruptions of belief or condition contradicting what the Messenger (sallallaahu `alaihi wasallam) came with, and that what benefit they contain is marjooh (not to be relied upon) and it not correct to use for objection"

He continues:

QUOTE
"As for what they contain - i.e. these innovated festive seasons such as the Mawlid - of benefit then they are opposed by what they contain of the corruption of innovations that outweigh the benefit, alongwith with what has preceded of the corruptions of belief and state - that the hearts become content with it at the expense of a large number of Sunnahs to the extent that you find that the elite and the general masses preserve this in a way that they do not preserve the Taraaweeh's or the five prayers...." mentioning many more cases.

[al-Qawl al-Fasl (pg. 102) of Shaykh Ismaa’eel al-Ansaaree]

You wrote:

Hajjar wrote:

it is valid to say it is not permitted since there are no ahadith or Quranic text permitting it.

On the contrary, [qs:19:15] and the hadith where the Prophet mentioned that he fasted on Mondays because that was the day on which he was born.

Beyond that, yes I agree, there is a difference of opinion on it. Some scholars have been for it, others against it.

However sayong you think it is not a good thing to follow or even impermissible is not the same as calling it haraam.

(More, there is a hadith of the Prophet that says that if someone starts a good practice, and other follow, then the first person will be rewarded for it.)

Hajjar wrote:

But same time if certain scholars are permitting it, some with conditions others not, then it's better to steer on the side of caution. so i say each to their own,but personally i dont practice it.

Fair and balanced. Can't argue against that to let people go their own way.

Especially as unlike all the debates show, this IS a minor issue.

Hajjar wrote:

but sahabah (Ra) never did it, nor prophets (saW) wives, plus we have no accurate date of prophets(saw) birth so how can we invent this and present it as the true practise in islam?

From that list I notice missing are the prophet himself and also God.

Fasting, offering extra nawaafil, wearing new clothes (if people do) as a sign of happiness are all good things and if an event is getting people to be more steadfast, that IMO is a good thing.

The sahabah were special in that they were more steadfast than us. Maybe they did not need the same level of reminding? It can probably be said that many were feeling traumatised enough from no longer being in the presence of the prophet

But yes, it is not a duty and not everyone has to. The only place where I take a stand on this is when people call it "haraam" because that is a strong word and it has not been the view of the historical scholars, even those who have been against it.

(Adding a new "haraam" to religion is bid'ah.)

@ Ed - try to be balanced. It can be a good practice. it is not fardh or anything and just because there have been great scholars across the spectrum who have been pro celebration, it does not mean there have not been great scholars who have held back too.

what ibn hajjar and ibn kathir really said:

Inventor and Innovator of Milad un-Nabi, Ibn Katheer and Ibn Hajr

As regards the celebration of the birthday of the Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), the scholars have clearly stated that the person who first introduced this innovation (bid'a) was Muzaffar ad-Din ibn Zain al-Din, the ruler of Irbil. "He was a prodigal monarch. He commanded the scholars of his time to follow the conduct based on their own derivation and independent thinking (ijtihad), and that they should not follow any school of law of any master except their own. A group of scholars and a body of the servants inclined towards him. He used to celebrate the birthday of the first monarch to introduce this practice among the Muslims"[1] He used to spend one hundred thousand (dirhams) on the celebration of the birthday of the Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) every year.[2] His assistant and helper in this innovation was Abdul Khattab Umar b. Dihya. "He was employed in the Maghrib, then travelled to Syria, then to Iraq, and then went to Irbil in 604 A.H. and found its monarch Muzaffar al-Din b. Zain al-Din who took keen interest in celebrating the birthday of the Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam). He composed a book for him al-Tanwir fi Maulid al-Siraj al-Munir and recited it to him. He rewarded him with one thousand dinars."[3]

Ibn Kathir has reported on the authority of al-Sabt about Ibn Dihya: "Ibn Unain used to defame the Muslims and disparage them. He would make additions in his report and exaggerate. So the people gave up narrating traditions from him and falsified him. Kamil was favouring him. When his conduct was disclosed to him, he withdrew Dar-al-Hadith from him and disgraced him."[4]

We give below the resume of Ibn Hajar al-Asqalanl's comments on him: "He was a liar, lied frequently, and a fabricator. He often slandered the scholars and the jurists of the past, used evil toungue, self-conceited, lacked insight in religious matters, and looked down upon religion. This has been reported from al-Hafiz Diya. He further says: Ali b. al-Hussain Abul Ali al- Isbahan narrated to me - it is enough to mention his name as an authority - when Ibn Dihya came to us in Isbahan, he stayed with my father in the hospice. He honoured and respected him very much. One day he came to my father with a carpet. He kissed it and placed it before him saying, "I offered such and such thousand rak'ahs of prayer on this carpet, and recited the whole Qur'an in the Ka'ba." He said: My father took it, kissed it, placed it on his head, and accepted it from him with a great pleasure. At the end of the day an inhabitant of Isbahan came and began to talk to us. During his conversation he said by chance: The faqih of Maghrib who is staying with you has purchased a beautiful carpet today for such and such a price. Therupon my father ordered to bring the carpet. Seeing it the man said, "Yes by Allah, this is the same." My father kept silent, and the eyes of Ibn Dihya fell down.[5]

1. Ahmad b. Muhammad el-Misry, el-Qawl el-Mu'tamad fi 'amal al-Mawlid

2. Al-Dhahabi, Duwal al-Islam, VoL11 p.102

3. Ibn Kathir, al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya, Vol.I3 pp.144-146

4. Ibid

5. Ibn Hajar el-Asqalani, Lisan al-Mizan, VoL 4 p.295

How The Mawlid Began: The story of The First Mawlid

It was said that the first to innovate the Mawlid were the Ubaydeen (called Fatimads), and others say that the first was king al Muzaffar Kukabri (549 - 630 A.H.) of Irbil.

Ibn Kallikan, who was a witness of the Mawlid of al Mudhaffar/Muzaffar, reported how the mawlid was, in his book "Wifayat al A'yan"; he said:

The pomp with which he celebrated the birthday of the Prophet (Mawlid) surpassed all description ; but I will mention a part of it:

The people of the neighbouring provinces have heard of his good belief in regards to the Prophet sallallahu alayhi was allam, so every year, a big number of fuqaha, Sufis, preachers, Quran recitors, and poets would come from near lands - such as baghdad, Mawsel, al Jazira ...etc. - and they would continue coming from Muharram until the begining of Rabi' al Awwal. Before that, al Mudhaffar would have already erected wooden pavilions, each pavilion is 4 or 5 stories, and he would make more than 20 wooden pavilions, one for him, and the rest for the amirs, and high ranking personal in his state.

Then when it was the first of the month of Safar (month before Rabi' al Awwal), these pavilions were decorated in a most splendid manner, and in every pavilion sat a group of singers, a group of composers/actors, and musicians; not a story was left without the company of these people.

During the whole period all business was suspended, and the only occupation of the people was to watch (the bands play) and walk from one band to another.

These pavilions were erected from the gate of the citadel/castle to the door of the khanqah (A place for Sufi retreat for worship) that is near the field/hippodrome. Everyday, after Asr prayer, Mudhaffar Ad-Deen would go and stop at each pavilion, one by one, listening to their singing, and watch their acting and other things done in the pavilions.

He then would pass the night in the khanqah, listening to the sufi religious singing; and after fajr prayer, he would ride out to hunt, and return to the citadel before dhuhr; this is what he did everyday until the day of the Mawlid.

He used to do the Mawlid one year on the eighth of the month, and the next on the twelfth, because of the difference of opinion regarding it (the date of his birth).

Two days before the Mawlid, he would send a huge number of camels, cattle, and sheep to the field, accompanied with drums, singers, and musicians. Then they begin the slaughtering of the animals, and set up a number of caldrons, and cooking in various manners.

Then when it was the eve of the Mawlid, after praying Maghrib, he would listen to the singing in the citadel; then he would go forth, preceeded by a great number of people bearing candles; two or four of these candles - not sure of the exact number - were such as employed in grand ceremonies, each of them being fastened on the back of a mule, with a man seated behind it to support it. He advanced in this manner until reaching the khanqah.

The morning of the next day, a quantity of pelisses were brought out to the khanqah by the sufis, in the hands of each of them is a bundle, and advanced one after the other. A great number of it is brought down, I can't count how many.

Then he would go to the khanqah; there gathered high distinct persons, chiefs, and a great number of other eminent individuals, and
he would set up chairs for preaching. And there, set up for Mudhaffar Ad-Deen, would be a wooden tower with windows overlooking the place where the people and chairs of the preachers were, and other windows open on the field, which was extremely wide. In it the soldiers were gathered for display, and he would sometimes look at the soldiers, and other times towards the people and preachers; he would continue like this until the soldiers were done.

Right then, a repast was brought into the field for the poor, and it would be a public meal, consisting of an immense quantity of food and bread, that couldn't be described. Then a second repast would be prepared in the khanqah for the people gathered at the chairs.

And during the time of soldiered displayed and the preachers exhorting, he would send for each one of the eminant men, chiefs and the comers for this festival, of whom we mentioned previously, from the fuqaha, preachers, Quran recitors, and poets; and he would cloth each in a pelisse, after which he would return to his place.

When all of that was done, the repast was brought in, and a portion of it was sent to the house of the ones whom were designated.

This would continue until Asr time or after, then he would stay that night there, listening to sufi religious singing until day-break. This is what he does every year. And I have summarized the situation, because a full description of it would take a lot. When they were done with this festival, each person would get ready to go back to his country so he would give each his spending/outlay."

and if you read the end it says:

"As for what they contain - i.e. these innovated festive seasons such as the Mawlid - of benefit then they are opposed by what they contain of the corruption of innovations that outweigh the benefit, alongwith with what has preceded of the corruptions of belief and state - that the hearts become content with it at the expense of a large number of Sunnahs to the extent that you find that the elite and the general masses preserve this in a way that they do not preserve the Taraaweeh's or the five prayers...." mentioning many more cases.

as for revival whatever your name is, evidence check the previous threads ones i made before i got banned all the evidence are their, you tried to quote ibn tamiyyah ibn hajjar and kathir, all whom were against it, thats what you call flop, as for evidence i done that before i got banned check out this vid if you wan anymore, i was just trying to show ibn tamiyyah evidence you use is flawed and ibn kathir and hajjar, it may work against those who havent studied it, for someone who has studied this knows how flawed these evidences are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ0H2TLqvdE

You wrote:

Once again, even in the bit you quoted there, he is not against mawlid itself, but people holding it more dear than prayer.

Do you actually read what you quote?

(as for any currupt action people do while there, I agree with him - it should be stopped. But reading the qur'an, learning the seerah, sending saluitations on the prophet (saw), reading nawaafil and even eating food are all allowed - many of them being sunnah activities.)

Besides, the Prophet celebrated his own birth. That is one fact that you can never deny.

you can pretend all you want that you made a point "some other time" but that is also rewriting history. the forum topics are still there for all to read.

You like to argue against names but when it comes to specific action, cannot argue against them.

Please tell me people should not read nawaafil. Please tell me people should not send salutations on the Prophet. Please tell me people should not learn from the seerah. Please tell me that the Prophet did not fast on mondays. Please tell me that the Prophet did not say that if someone starts a good practice (ie an occasion where people can do these allowed things), that he will not be rewarded.

Please tell me that God does not send peace on the birth of the prophet in the qur'an - [qs:19:15] [but be aware that if you deny the qur'an, that is kufr, so don't do it out of arrogance].

Please also tell me that the Qur'an does not tell us to celebrate/rejoice over the blessings that Allah (swt) has provided us.

Thing is you cannot deny any of that. Not one bit. Yet you still continue to argue.

if you use your common sense you can see he says bad things about it, stating why its bad, negetive wiew on it, and second point was you cut and paste his quote trying to make it loom like he supports it from his original quote, a twist of lie sufis are well known of, you tru and make ibn kathir and hijr look like they support it and it was they who stated it was a shia innovation and against it,
quran says rejoice, does it say rejolice by doing milad un nabi and doing harram acts and innovation.

And now to teach you the defenition of innovation, well not even your schoalrs know the defenition of that so i dont expect much from you either.

Innovation into the religion is haram, such as introducing a new form of worship, whether its anything, as ayesha RA hadith states even if it sounds good still harram, such as if i introduce a new eid its haram, as muhammad SAW clearly said we only have 2 festivals, you barelvi you call mawlid a eid, and made a new festival, harram, second if i was to say from today we will have 6 instead of 5 daily prayers, that would be harram innvoation aswell, mawlid fits in here harram innovation in the deen.

What kind of innvoation is halal, tasbih for example, tasbih is simply used to count your dhikr, it doesnt matter how you count as its the dhikr the act of worship ,method isnt just the way you do it, as you can see here tasbih is not a religious or new thingin the religion, if you dont use it for tasbih you can use it for other thing, use it as a calculator, or anything, but it can be used for dhkr, now tasbih as i said isnt something that is introduced in the religion as in its not like you have to use it or is a religious symble or anything, just something to help you with your act of worship, like using a mike to give speach and all.

You wrote:

oh, and once again, you ignore the verse of teh qur'an.

You are free to throw insults, but you cannot deny teh qur'an: [qs:19:15]. Read it and weep.

first of all my hudhafah avvount isnt working so i had to make this one

2nd this verse says Peace be upon him on the day he was born and the day he dies, and on him the day when he is raised up alive." (Maryam: 15)

all its saying i may peace be upon muhammad SAW what has that got to do with anything? whre does it say this verse means celebrate mawlid and other nonsense you believe,m its jsut giving peace on muhammad SAW, use your brain and get a tafsir and learn what the quran says not what your so called sheikhs say

You wrote:

Next you will say that zina has "good and bad points"!

His view is clearly from what you posted that on the event, the actual actions matter and if the actions are good, then it is good, but if the actions are bad, then it is indefensible.

I totally agree with him. You however do not as you take that to mean "it is haraam haraam haraam" when those were not his words.

Have you ever heard a scholar say that there are good and bad things about Zina? Have you ever heard a scholar say that people will get rewarded for their good actions when commiting zina? I think not.

If it was in his view haraam, there would be no talk of "good and bad things", nor of the intention being rewarded.

no but to see a sufi say that in the future is possible, and good and bad things, point is their maybe good things in it but doesnt change the fact that its still bad in the end