Single, Muslim and Pregnant

Author: 
Alveena Salim

As an East London girl, it wasn’t unusual to see crowds of Muslim guys standing outside libraries waiting to try it on with any girl that passed through the door. Nor was it unusual to see groups of Muslim guys standing on top of street corners making comments at girls that walked past.

It definitely wasn’t unusual to see a guy drive round the same block at least four times just to take another look at a girl. Guys chased the girls. The girls played hard to get. But a couple of years down the line, I don’t see that any more. Why? Coz guys don’t need to chase girls any more.

Over the years, a lot more girls don’t see a problem with sleeping around. In recent years, we’ve seen the rise in Vicky Pollard and “Am I bovvered” wannabe Muslim ladettes, a rise in the number of youth who are ‘doing it’ and a rise in Muslim teenage pregnancies.

Fortunately, whilst the UK does have the highest number of teenage pregnancies in Europe, Muslim girls are least likely to get pregnant out of wedlock compared to all other faiths (1). However, Muslim teenage pregnancies DO happen and are often kept undercover.

What’s The Big Deal?

Premarital or extramarital sex - known as Zina is a major sin in Islam! Allah (swt) warns Muslims not to even come near it and describes it as

“an abomination and an evil way.” (17: 32)

According to a Hadith it is also considered one of the worst sins in the eyes of Allah (swt).

The Holy Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam (Peace and Blessings be upon him) related a dream in which he saw a number of sinners were being punished. The Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam (Peace and Blessings be upon him) said:

“…We proceeded until we came across a hole in the ground that resembled a baking pit, narrow at the top and wide at the bottom. Babbling and voices were issuing from it. We looked in and saw naked men and women. Underneath the pit was a raging fire; whenever it flared up, the men and women screamed and rose with it until they almost fell out of the pit. As it subsided, they returned (to the bottom). I said: ‘Who are these?’ They said: ‘…The naked men and women who were in the pit, they are men and women who indulge in Zina…” (Bukhari)

It is such a serious offence that all things that lead to Zina, such as being alone with a member of the opposite sex who you’re not related to is also forbidden in Islam.

The reason why it’s forbidden in Islam is coz of the major problems that it can bring into society such as illegitimate children, spread of disease, increase in divorce rate, spread of crime, children not being brought up or cared for properly and ultimately the breakdown of the family unit.

As a Muslim, to be pregnant and unmarried is the worst situation to be in. Such girls are often shunned by society, talked about in a bad way and are considered to have brought ‘shame’ on their family. This is why many teenage Muslim girls, who find themselves in such a serious situation, will go to great lengths to hide their pregnancy – and this may result in secret abortions or even a ‘virginity fix’.

24 hymen replacement operations took place between 2005 and 2006. An increasing number of women are paying up to £4,000 in private clinics for the procedure apparently under pressure from future spouses or in-laws who believe they should be virgins on their wedding night. Doctors said most patients are immigrants or British of ethnic origin. Dr Magdy Hend, consultant gynaecologist at the Regency Clinic, Harley Street, London, who started hymen reconstruction more than 18 years ago in the Middle East and the Gulf, said:

"In some cultures they like to see that the women will bleed on the wedding night. If the wife or bride is not a virgin, it is a big shame on the family."

Dr Hend also said that most clients are in their teens or early twenties and that demand is increasing, particularly from UK residents (2).

It is extremely important to note it is a myth that a bride will definitely bleed on her wedding night if she is indeed a virgin. Bleeding isn’t at all a reliable indication of a girl’s virginity, as many girls who are virgins do not bleed when they first have sexual intercourse and this is normal. To combat such ignorance amongst our people we need to educate ourselves about Islam so that we recognise true Islamic teachings from the backward cultural practices of today.

Some girls are forced to undergo secret abortions. Shanaz speaks of her experience:

The doctor asked me ‘why do you want an abortion?’ I told him it was because of my background and family and that there was no way I could have a baby. As an unmarried Muslim girl, I simply couldn’t go through with the pregnancy. Not only would it break up the family but I could be disowned, in fact anything could happen to me.

I also told him I was at college, and living at home with only a small grant. Throughout this time my then boyfriend was like a stranger.

I really needed his support but got none. He didn’t come to the private clinic with me, or help me with transport to the nursing home where they performed the operation. He just gave me half the money and that was that.

I had no-one to confide in really. The worst thing was coming home and being with my parents, knowing that something was living inside me. It was worse at night, when I had time to think clearly and hurt and feel guilty about what was going to happen. I was about to kill my child. It was terrible to feel like that and keep it all to myself. (3)

Abortion – The Easy Way Out?

So you’re knocked up, not married and scared of how you’re parents will react? Abortion seems like the easy way out. However, whilst many feminists may bang on about a woman having full control over their bodies, Islam does not see abortion as an answer to your problems.

Life is a gift from Allah (swt). No one has the right to take away or stop the life of anyone else. Killing any person is strongly condemned in the Quran, especially the killing of children which is specifically condemned in several chapters.

The Quran says:

"Kill not your children for fear of want; it is We who provide sustenance for them as well as for you; for verily killing them is a great sin. (17: 31).

Sex outside marriage can also result in serious consequences for all involved. In some instances some Muslim girls are killed for getting themselves in such a shameful situation, in so-called ‘honour killings’ which have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.

So Why Do Unmarried Muslim Girls Have Sex?

“Coz there’s no point going out with a guy if you’re not going to do stuff” claims Anisha. Safa argues that “everyone is ‘doing it’ and anyone who denies it is a liar”. So peer pressure and the current norms of society play a huge part. Another common reason is lack of self-esteem, some girls go all the way because it makes them feel loved, desired and better about themselves. In other instances, it may be due to lack of appreciation or love at home, which makes them go looking for it elsewhere. Detachment from home can lead to attachment elsewhere.

On top of that, there’s the mixed message that teenagers learn in school. In a bid to decrease the number of teenage pregnancies, one government initiative was to give out free condoms, which gave the message “it’s OK to do it, as long as you use protection”. Whilst Western society tries to decrease the number of teenage pregnancies by dishing out free contraception, Islam emphasises no sex outside marriage. Islam gives that as a solution rather than a temporary cure.

The media also gives out messages that encourage teenagers to have sex before marriage; Sex is a topic that advertisers and marketers use very effectively to sell their products, from chocolates to mobile phones to even the latest car.

How many times has the storyline of teenage pregnancies hit popular soaps? ‘The new female imperative is that it is only through promiscuity and sexual aggression that girls can achieve admiration and recognition’.

Films such as Cruel Intentions and Mean Girls, the music and videos of Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera and Lil' Kim all help portray this message. ‘Girls are being led to believe they're in control when it comes to sexual relationships.’ (4)

Lack of Islamic education is another reason why young girls have sex outside marriage. How many parents give their children the Islamic ‘sex talk’? How may Mosque Imams address this issue?

So What Do You Want Me To Do About It?

Firstly, we need to acknowledge the fact that is an issue that affects the Muslim youth. Secondly, we need to be prepared to talk about it in order to educate our youth with Islamic knowledge. Parents should know that sex is not always a dirty word. It is an important aspect of our life.

There should be no shame or holding back in discussing this issue, if a child has reached puberty, it’s time to teach him/her the difference between right and wrong. And because the Western society is most definitely going to be tackling this issue in schools and through the media, we need to make sure more so, that our youth are educated about sex according to the teachings of Islam.

The people from the time of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam (Peace and Blessings be upon him) asked questions about discharge and even wet dreams, in fact the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam (Peace and Blessings be upon him) praised the women of Ansar, because their shyness did not prevent them from seeking knowledge.

The main reason Muslim parents do not or cannot discuss sex education with their children is because of their cultural upbringing. Parents may not be comfortable with their own sexuality or its expression coz of the way they were brought up.

Our Imams/Mosques also need to educate the community and offer counselling to those people who may have fallen into this predicament. That way, young girls would not be forced to have undercover abortions, run away from home, contemplate getting ‘virginity fix’ surgery or be victims of ‘honour crime’.

And girls wake up. Most guys can walk away from a sexual encounter without giving it a second thought. Girls can’t do that. Don’t sleep with a guy in order to win his love, or to be accepted by your friends or even if you’re convinced that you’re ‘in love’.

The truth is that most guys have little respect for a girl who has slept with someone before marriage, even if you sleep with them! Plus, society thinks very low of such people and there’s a possibility that you may fall pregnant.

More importantly, you’ll be guilty of one of the biggest sins in Islam! If you have any self-respect, you’ll hold out for the guy who respects you enough to commit to marriage. Someone who can see themselves spending a bit more than a few nights with you.

References

Comments

Interesting article, but using "cos" instead of because is kind of unforgivable really, why do it?!!!!

Thanks for raising this issue. muslim girls just as much slags as anyone else, now i have no respect for them expect those who wear the black veil coz they have some decency left in them. rest are just meat for boys. i am also guilty of comitting zina against many girls both old and young. please pray for me.

really interesting article. i never even lost a thought about a muslim girl getting pregnant. this is so... unbelievable. don't know what goes on in their minds...
God help us insallah

oldhamdude wrote:
.... muslim girls just as much slags as anyone else....

I think the word your looking for is SOME Muslims girls commit zina. And that applies to SOME Muslim men as well!!!

oldhamdude wrote:
[b]expect those who wear the black veil coz they have some decency left in them[/b]

And how exactly have you come to that conclusion?

"Anon (not verified)" wrote:
Interesting article, but using "cos" instead of because is kind of unforgivable really, why do it?!!!!

Coz the majority of the youth use coz instead of because.

No not the gum drop buttons! – Gingy

Perhaps if one is going to use as a reference a document available to all one should actually obtain the document referred to rather than playing Chinese Whispers and relying on biased reports from Newspapers!

The first reference DID NOT suggest nor imply that "Muslim girls are least likely to get pregnant out of wedlock compared to all other faiths"; the only reference to Muslim grils at all was: Critics said the fall in pregnancy "rates" - the number of pregnancies per thousand - could be attributed in part to an increasing population. This includes a large number of Muslim families where teenage pregnancy is rare.

This whole article has been composed on the back of 4 other articles that have had at best tenuous links made between them!

I especially find the quote of the girl who has had an abortion most manipulative!

Though I accept wholeheartedly the author has made a half-hearted attempt to reconcile this at the end - it was not enough IMO! The problem will NOT go away and MUSLIM PARENTS need to wake up and smell the coffee - for too long they have neglected their duties wuth regards educating their children about religion (merely dumping at the madrassa is not sufficient) nor is "banning" male/female contact opportunities evidently! The age of marrying your child off as a pure virgin are on the whole over - and now the Muslim community needs to deal with this fact and move on...only then may there be a reversal when the issue is truly acknowledged!

Noone denies that children born out of wedlock is undesirable - but our society needs to learn to deal with these new problems, and treat the children as is prescribed int he Quran...and indeed menotr the parents in such a way as to avoid for replication!

Sich issues have been successfully swept under the carpet in many Asian/African countries with large Muslim populations, the condequential result being abortions, STDs and some of the largest rates of HIV and AIDS!!! So something obviously isn't working with these attitudes is it?!

oldhamdude wrote:
Thanks for raising this issue. muslim girls just as much slags as anyone else, now i have no respect for them expect those who wear the black veil coz they have some decency left in them. rest are just meat for boys. i am also guilty of comitting zina against many girls both old and young. please pray for me.

[i][b]

i think u dont know wat u r on bout cos i no quite a few girls who wear veils they r undercover they also do this it doesnt mean a girl chats to a guy she'l also sleep with him there are many decent girls in this world as well as boys so it same all way round ..... [/b][/i]

Sad

There are many decent girls who don't wear the veil!

Chin up, mate! Life's too short.

Why is it just the girls fault? I don't notice anyone mentioning the other half of the problem - These so called Muslim youth running after anything female with a pulse and pressurizing these young girls. I see this everyday (I work in a High School with a high proportion of Muslim youth from various cultures). As a Muslim, I am frankly very concerned about what I see and pray they are put on the right path.

Abd Al-Latif wrote:
Why is it just the girls fault? I don't notice anyone mentioning the other half of the problem - These so called Muslim youth running after anything female with a pulse and pressurizing these young girls. I see this everyday (I work in a High School with a high proportion of Muslim youth from various cultures). As a Muslim, I am frankly very concerned about what I see and pray they are put on the right path.

i cum from an all female Muslim school and i copy u!

As a Christian I also believe that sex outside marriage is a sin, as is abortion.

So what happens if a girl does end up getting pregnant? Surely it can't be right that she has an abortion and commits a further sin to hide the first?

If she is truly sorry and realises that what she has done is wrong, is there no restoration - can she not be helped to have the baby and bring him or her up or have him or her adopted by a childless couple? I'm interested that the comments so far have been about abortion and scandal, and the need for education to avoid preganancy occurring, but not about forgiveness or love if it does. Is this not possible in Islam?

As a Christian I am not going to agree with you about ultimate truth, but equally I think that it is too easy for people from both faiths to exaggerate and misunderstand/distort the other's position so I am anxious to understand why there has been no mention of forgiveness and restoration. Do the parents of such a teenage girl simply abandon her/disown her? Please tell me that Muslims would not do that.

Christain Male wrote:
As a Christian I also believe that sex outside marriage is a sin, as is abortion.

So what happens if a girl does end up getting pregnant? Surely it can't be right that she has an abortion and commits a further sin to hide the first?

If she is truly sorry and realises that what she has done is wrong, is there no restoration - can she not be helped to have the baby and bring him or her up or have him or her adopted by a childless couple? I'm interested that the comments so far have been about abortion and scandal, and the need for education to avoid preganancy occurring, but not about forgiveness or love if it does. Is this not possible in Islam?

As a Christian I am not going to agree with you about ultimate truth, but equally I think that it is too easy for people from both faiths to exaggerate and misunderstand/distort the other's position so I am anxious to understand why there has been no mention of forgiveness and restoration. Do the parents of such a teenage girl simply abandon her/disown her? Please tell me that Muslims would not do that.


Thanks for your comments, I'm glad you have taken an interest in finding out about Islam, may God guide us all! Amen (Hebrew)/Ameen (Arabic)!

I have to be honest, in many cases Muslim parents DO abandon their children, and there should be no shying away from the fact that in some parts of the Muslim community parents have gone even further and 'honour killings' are a terrible, all-too-common occurrence. A lot of the comments have been in regards to this, but that is because we are trying to deal with real life as opposed to an 'ideal world' where everyone is a 'good Muslim' (whatever that is).

In regards to whether forgiveness and love are possible in Islam, I would have to say that forgive and love are COMPULSORY in Islam. It is all-to-easy to confuse the actions of some MUSLIMS with the principals of ISLAM.

In the Qur'an (which we believe to be the direct Word of God) God describes the believers as “those who avoid major sins and acts of indecencies and when they are angry they forgive.” (al-Shura 42:37) Later in the same chapter God says, “The reward of evil is the evil thereof, but whosoever forgives and makes amends, his reward is upon Allah.” (al-Shura 42:40)

There is one hadith (a saying of the Prophet Muhammad - may peace and blessings be upon him) which translates as: 'Allah the Almighty has said: “O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its.” (related by Anas).

For me, this is a stark contrast to Christianity. My understanding of concept of Original Sin is that all of mankind is born burdened with the sin of Prophet Adam (may peace be upon him). The Qur'an utterly rejects this concept; one verse translates as: "Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things? And every soul earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ."

In terms of love - what is belief in God without love? Love for Him; love for His messengers; love for all His creation! By God - I did not know love until I knew Islam, and I did not know Islam until I knew love!

An incredibly famous Muslim poet wrote:

Quote:
Those who don't feel this Love
pulling them like a river,
those who don't drink dawn
like a cup of spring water
or take in sunset like supper,
those who don't want to change,

let them sleep.

This Love is beyond the study of theology,
that old trickery and hypocrisy.
If you want to improve your mind that way,

sleep on.

I've given up on my brain.
I've torn the cloth to shreds
and thrown it away.

If you're not completely naked,
wrap your beautiful robe of words
around you,

and sleep.

- Jalaludin Rumi

The Prophet Muhammad - peace and blessing be upon him - said:
"None of you will truly believe, until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself."
(reported by Muslim)

I hope this helps.

Don't just do something! Stand there.

The veiled muslims girls are also involved in sex. I know of plenty of vieled ones that go around sleeping with boys and then put the veil on..they are just as bad.

these people shame my culture and my religon,
me and my wife have two kids and we are respectable,
and i don't think you should use 'coz' its unforgiveable to my religon

I say let them do it. They know their circumstances, what is right and what is wrong. At some point you have to allow for individuals to "fail" and not get all uppity about it.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

by ''black veil'' do you the hijab??? because i just wanted to say that reading your comment has like totally offended me!!! cause i wear the hijab, and im hoping u mean the same thing inshallah...???

and im glad im not the only one who feels that muslim girls who don't cover themselves up are only hurting themselves, they will be judged later...HOWEVER!!! there are plenty of good muslim women who dont cover themselves up as well. so please watch your words.

Abdur Rahman wrote:
these people shame my culture and my religon,
me and my wife have two kids and we are respectable,
and i don't think you should use 'coz' its unforgiveable to my religon

Why is saying "coz" unforgivable? I call that bidah to be honest.

“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”

Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi

You wrote:
I say let them do it. They know their circumstances, what is right and what is wrong. At some point you have to allow for individuals to "fail" and not get all uppity about it.

Err...one question..or maybe a few questions..

Firstly, being part of Prophet Muhammed pbuh Ummah, how can you say such shameful words, 'let them do it'? Are you stupid? ...

Our Beloved Prophet made duah till His last breath to Allah to forgive his Ummah because we are sinners...but instead of teaching and helping these people (who do wrong) you think we should let them do it? AstagfiruAllah, that is just as bad as you commiting Zina yourself bro. Sort yourself out.
And anyone who thinks...Im over reacting should get themselves checked out.

Our Prophet made so much duah for us to Allah tala, and asked Allah to forgive our sins (not His)...Yet you can say such digusting and shameful things?

It is each and everyone of our duty to help eachother out to the fullest extent, and share our knowledge to help eachother get out of sins...Yet ...'YOU' manages to say, 'let them do it'....this is what I think of your comment....'PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF'. Because of people like 'YOU' our world has become so selfish, everyone looks at their own gains before helping eachother out...so darn selfish. I feel ashamed that theres people like that in Our Beloved Prophets Ummah. WE NEED TO SORT OURSELVES OUT, Before saying anything about anyone else!inshAllah

Its people like you that push people away when they want to see the light.

All judgemental and stuff. That is not helping, but hindering. You can help someone if that person wants the help, otherwise you will push that person further away.

It is because of people like you that there are kids being blown up "in the name of Islam". Disgusting and despicable.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

wednesday wrote:
This is something related to Muslims NOWADAYS, there are people living together, and go ahead and have kids and stuff but they aren't married.

How should this be looked as?

Tell them that an Islamic marriage ceremony does not need to have any cost - just a few witnesses and that's all and then they are blessed for whatever they do behind closed doors. Not much of a problem as some people already know that they are living together - no need for secrecy or anything.

ofcourse getting the marriage registered in the civil system would be a bonus...

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
Its people like you that push people away when they want to see the light.

All judgemental and stuff. That is not helping, but hindering. You can help someone if that person wants the help, otherwise you will push that person further away.

It is because of people like you that there are kids being blown up "in the name of Islam". Disgusting and despicable.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

If a person does not want your help, thats their problem. My point is ...we should help! We are obliged to help ...as I mentioned 'to the fullest extent', if after that they dont want help, thats their own business.

People like me that kids get blown up???Errr...what you on about? Where the hell did I state that something like that is ok? Get your eyes checked!

it's the same ideology/mentality that pervades in those people, so yes it is linked.

If a person does not want your help, thats their problem. My point is ...we should help! We are obliged to help ...as I mentioned 'to the fullest extent', if after that they dont want help, thats their own business.

Define help. Condemning them to hell and destruction is NOT help. Try helping them by living a good life yourself, teach them through example instead of shouting them down. And when they are so impressed with your lifestyle choices, they will ask to be "saved".

helping others/forcing betterment leads people to down dark alleyways - instead of doing one thing wrong, they will do two, three or more things to hide the primary mistake/choice, and that is worse that just doing the one and is escalation forced through others trying to "help".

My personal view on pre marital relationships is that there can be much much worse done. While no pre marital relations is the best, it is not always achievable, and in that case, a willing relationship is better than the alternatives such as abuse and rape.

The last two are far more common that most people realise as it is hidden under the carpet - so common that I no longer thing telling people to NOT have pre marital relations is a good thing as its the far lesser of the evils.

Get rid of pre-marital willing relationships, and guess what some people will choose? Even if its a minority, that is still too much.

So I say let people live their lives how they want as atleast they will not be forced down darker paths by clueless do gooders who have no understanding of the real worlds and the evils it entails.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
it's the same ideology/mentality that pervades in those people, so yes it is linked.

If a person does not want your help, thats their problem. My point is ...we should help! We are obliged to help ...as I mentioned 'to the fullest extent', if after that they dont want help, thats their own business.

Define help. Condemning them to hell and destruction is NOT help. Try helping them by living a good life yourself, teach them through example instead of shouting them down. And when they are so impressed with your lifestyle choices, they will ask to be "saved".

helping others/forcing betterment leads people to down dark alleyways - instead of doing one thing wrong, they will do two, three or more things to hide the primary mistake/choice, and that is worse that just doing the one and is escalation forced through others trying to "help".

My personal view on pre marital relationships is that there can be much much worse done. While no pre marital relations is the best, it is not always achievable, and in that case, a willing relationship is better than the alternatives such as abuse and rape.

The last two are far more common that most people realise as it is hidden under the carpet - so common that I no longer thing telling people to NOT have pre marital relations is a good thing as its the far lesser of the evils. Get rid of pre-marital willing relationships, and guess what some people will choose?

Personal View??? Opinion??? Err....Do you follow the Quran or your own law mate? There is no 'opinion' or 'personal view' when it comes to commiting a crime!! Whether you like to hear that ..or NOT!

Ofcourse when I say help...it literally means help!

"helping others/forcing betterment leads people to down dark alleyways"<<< that aint help!

If helping a person leads that person to do more bad, than good..thats not help!

Help - advice them, shed your knowledge of Islam you have on them, explain to them what they are doing is wrong..how they can stop...etc ..etc...Thats is HELP! Simple as that.

Leading people to darkallways n all is bull...If that happens, then you havent helped the person , simple as that.

Also...ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO MENTION...WHY DO PEOPLE SAY IN MY OPINION, OR I THINK, OR FROM MY EXPERIENCE??????????We are talking about wrong and right from the Quran shareef here, we aint talking about your opinions or experiences!

Helping those people is not condemning them, but helping them get hitched.

As for forcing abstinence on them, I have heard that the qur'an addresses the christian priests and asks them how that helps, and how that makes them worse.

The child abuse scandals that rocked the churches would have been far less prevalent/not prevalent at all if the priests were not forced to take a vow of abstinence. The vows clearly did not work.

Same with the "just say no" media campaigns - they have not stopped teenage pregnancy etc either.

Same goes for madrassahs (in pakistan and such places) - why do you think there are so many jokes/reports about homosexual acts being rife in such places? You would expect that because those are religious establishments, the people would be whiter than the normal people. less error prone. But that is not the case. It's because they have no other "alternative" except for abstinence and that does not always work for everyone.

The Islamic solution is NOT to simply condemn such people, but marriage. Early marriage would allow for less such problems. Easy marriage, easy divorce with no prejudgements attached to such things is what is required.

Besides its not your job to judge, so why not leave Judgement to Allah (swt)?

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Zakky wrote:
If helping a person leads that person to do more bad, than good..thats not help!

Help - advice them, shed your knowledge of Islam you have on them, explain to them what they are doing is wrong..how they can stop...etc ..etc...Thats is HELP! Simple as that.

Leading people to darkallways n all is bull...If that happens, then you havent helped the person , simple as that.

But what if you are trying to promote goodness? telling them to be good? standing over their shoulder FORCING them to be good. Surely that will lead to good, no?

No.

People try to promote good, but while the intention may be there, the means are not necessarily so and can lead to the people they are trying to help to do worse.

Zakky wrote:
Also...ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO MENTION...WHY DO PEOPLE SAY IN MY OPINION, OR I THINK, OR FROM MY EXPERIENCE??????????We are talking about wrong and right from the Quran shareef here, we aint talking about your opinions or experiences!

Experiences matter as only through them can you tell if what you originally deemed "help" was actually helpful.

The qur'an tells you to be good, to promote virtue, but it also asks you to use hikmah. and THAT IS THROUGH PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Wisdom comes through experience.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Besides its not your job to judge, so why not leave Judgement to Allah (swt)?[/quote]

Bro ...whose judging?? I'm saying what you said, 'let them do it', is wrong. Full stop. No need to be defensive. If you know you were wrong just admit it, if you think you werent, thats your problem.

Im out , you people dont have much knowledge, just express your "opinion" and views which is a load of bull!!

You wrote:
But what if you are trying to promote goodness? telling them to be good? standing over their shoulder FORCING them to be good. Surely that will lead to good, no?

No.

Who said anything about forcing?? Whats wrong with you? Dont you read what Im writing?Just go on about force and crap.

People try to promote good, but while the intention may be there, the means are not necessarily so and can lead to the people they are trying to help to do worse.

Zakky wrote:
Also...ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO MENTION...WHY DO PEOPLE SAY IN MY OPINION, OR I THINK, OR FROM MY EXPERIENCE??????????We are talking about wrong and right from the Quran shareef here, we aint talking about your opinions or experiences!

Experiences matter as only through them can you tell if what you originally deemed "help" was actually helpful.

The qur'an tells you to be good, to promote virtue, but it also asks you to use hikmah. and THAT IS THROUGH PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Wisdom comes through experience.

Ok, thats a good point made here! Experience gives wisdom, thats right. But saying your opinions when its not needed? does that give wisdom? just because you have said your personal opinion , does that mean theres no difference between halal and haram?There are certain things you can have your opinion on, some things not...This is a topic where opinion is not needed!

I was not wrong because I think people have a right to their own lives.

Forcing people towards goodness is evil and counter productive.

I have given an answer up there somewhere of the solution, and it is not forcing people to be good, or even simply judging as that is what people have done in the past to get us to the state we are in.

The Islamic solution is NOT to simply condemn such people, but marriage. Early marriage would allow for less such problems. Easy marriage, easy divorce with no prejudgements attached to such things is what is required.

I-m so happy See?

Im out , you people dont have much knowledge, just express your "opinion" and views which is a load of bull!!

That is your opinion. I even presented anecdotal evidence!

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Zakky wrote:
This is a topic where opinion is not needed!

in your opinion.

In my opinion the conventional wisdom is not only wrong, but it also allows for greater evil.

Another example (this is the third one), sex before/outside marriage is wrong.

However if people are ostracised for it, when it results in pregnancy, there is a greater chance of abortion - and murder is worse than pre marital sex.

So if people stay on their high horses, they may inadvertently promote murder. Are they still doing good? are they promoting virtue or are their actions resulting in a life not being allowed to erm.. live?

Would it not be better to show understanding that people are people and have wants and desires and flaws and everything?

PS I would like to thank you for allowing me to express my views on this whole thing. I do suspect that most people will disagree with the conclusions that I have reached, so this was a good opportunity for me to get my arguments "out there".

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

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