"Med" wrote:

keep waiting brother.

If any1 here cant see that statements calling out to people eg Ya Ali Madad, Ya Ghaws e Azam, Ya . . . .

as being shirkiya statements then I really have nothing to say to such people.

Yes, I know people can quote peoples rulings that Ya Ali Madad etc is permitted and islamic. That doesnt make a difference. Shirk is shirk, calling out is only for my ALLAH.

Do you pray?

and what idd you learn of Arabic syntax at your madrasah?

"Attahiyaatu lillaahi wassalawatu watayyibaatu assalaamu Alakaa [b]AYYU HANNABIYYU...[/b]"

I think you are looking for a fight, as you are ignoring your own education of arabc syntax. Go back and read it again. (is it that time of the month?)

Read the definition of Yaa, and its general case, and where it can be used.

[and if you have forgotten all arabic yaa and ayyu are about the same...]

Remember that if you call another muslim Kaafir, what that means for you. I would be really careful.

Naj; we should only concentrate on bettering ourselves.

Shirk is shirk. However acts that are not shirk should NEVER be confused with those which are, as you are clearly doing.

Arrogance may be settling into you, but we can always prove you wrong, as right will always overcome wrong.

"Admin" wrote:

[Read the definition of Yaa, and its general case, and where it can be used.

i thawt saying ya ali is wrong.are you saying saying ya ali is allowed ?

"hijaban" wrote:

"Admin" wrote:

[Read the definition of Yaa, and its general case, and where it can be used.

i thawt saying ya ali is wrong.are you saying saying ya ali is allowed ?

Gramatically it is allowed.

Yaa is a general arabic term that has no qualifications on the individuals presence.

"yuit" wrote:

Med, you seem to be very knowledgable in islam, But bro i still worry about you. Because for someone will the knowledge you have, you still focus too much on the action of other practicing muslims . Considering how many non practicing muslims we have at the moment, it suprise me why you would take that approach. Surely your main focus should be in this area, addressing the problem that destory many millions muslims life every year. Our job should be setting people onto the path of Allah swt, rather then focusing on the people who are already on there and pickig holes in them.

You keep bringing up the phrase shirk, there is no bigger sin then shirk so it a big deal when you accuse someone of this. You seem to be reading the intention of alot of muslims, which even yourself have to agree isn't right. Also why focus on someone beard for, when they doing so much good in bringing islam into people life. It a small minded position to take. Why don't you take the position of the like of Sahykh Ahmed Ali, who focus so much on tackling the ill of society and aiming a positive message too the youth. Too me that is a positive and it was his talks that made me understand and appreciate islam more. Having a negative approach gets u nowhere in life i found, people will simply ignore you and you can blame them if you want for being ignorant, but truthfully the blame will be with you.

Salaam

I totally agree with you. There are so many issues concerning the Muslim youth.

We have a significant proportion of Muslims in jail…zina, adultery, drugs, alcohol etc is on the increase….recently a couple of Muslim guys were charged with manslaughter cos they killed up a white guy in Ramadan.

Muslim youth don’t get on with their parents and are involved in all sorts….parents are stressed cos their kids don’t practise Islam. We have all sorts going on…however too many of us like to get bogged down with minor issues.

And when I say minor….what I mean is that drugs abuse in relation to whether or nor someone attends Milad is minor.

The length of ones beard or whether or not someone wears the Jilbaab in relation to zina and adultery is minor.

Such mentality also effected the children of Israel…you know, man's tendency to concern himself excessively over details. Despite the easy, uncomplicated and pure nature of Islam, some people seek to make the religion difficult, by introducing needless details into it, and by shifting the focus from its true essence to trivial issues.

I have so much respect for groups and organisation who actually do something for the youth….the ones who actually get the youth off the streets and into the Mosques. After all they are the future of Islam…they should be our primary focus and goal.

Some years ago, I was really into finding out about the Haazir or Naazir issue or tawassul and istaghatha....but after realising that these minor issues in Islam divide the Muslim ummah and stir unnecessary emotion and debate I don’t see the usefulness about knowing about these things.

As you said, we should focus on the bigger picture. And stop trying to convert the converted.

Wasalaam

"naj" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

Med, you seem to be very knowledgable in islam, But bro i still worry about you. Because for someone will the knowledge you have, [u]you still focus too much on the action of other practicing muslims [/u]

well isnt that in a way a good thing...talking of if you see someone clearly in the wrong making false statements shouldnt that problem be noted? or should it be ignored.You dont always need to focus to see people making mistakes.

nawt to do wiv topic.

You miss the point of my post. What i was trying to say is that while, muslims today represent a high percentage of teh drug dealers in this country, some muslims women have become prositute, young muslims are running off with each other, drinking and clubbing are more common, fornication is on the increase, murder amongst muslims is more common, honour killings, rape, gang culture, mental illness, despression, suicide and the list can continue, is about, shouldn't this be our main concern then rather then misunderstanding other scholars and groups. Ask yourself how many talks have you been to of a another scholar before you came too a conclusion on him, or have you relied on second hand information. We all complain when the non muslims do this with islam, jumping to conclusion, but we do it to our self as well.

Don't get me wrong, there are loads of practice that i don't agree with that muslims do, but too me the concept of brotherhood is more important to me, that and the fact is that I know I ain't fully inform on everything, means that i don't decide to attack and instead try to understand instead. I remember a scholar mentioning that in teh prophet final speech, he mention that only the small things will divide the muslims, i believe this too be true and that why i don't understand why this shirk agrument is alway used. Because the thing that divide muslims is minor, it just that the ego is too big for certain people too see it.

"yuit" wrote:

You miss the point of my post. What i was trying to say is that while, muslims today represent a high percentage of teh drug dealers in this country, some muslims women have become prositute, young muslims are running off with each other, drinking and clubbing are more common, fornication is on the increase, murder amongst muslims is more common, honour killings, rape, gang culture, mental illness, despression, suicide and the list can continue, is about, shouldn't this be our main concern then rather then misunderstanding other scholars and groups. Ask yourself how many talks have you been to of a another scholar before you came too a conclusion on him, or have you relied on second hand information. We all complain when the non muslims do this with islam, jumping to conclusion, but we do it to our self as well.

Don't get me wrong, there are loads of practice that i don't agree with that muslims do, but too me the concept of brotherhood is more important to me, that and the fact is that I know I ain't fully inform on everything, means that i don't decide to attack and instead try to understand instead. I remember a scholar mentioning that in teh prophet final speech, he mention that only the small things will divide the muslims, i believe this too be true and that why i don't understand why this shirk agrument is alway used. Because the thing that divide muslims is minor, it just that the ego is too big for certain people too see it.

Well said.

"MuslimSister" wrote:

Such mentality also effected the children of Israel…you know, man's tendency to concern himself excessively over details. Despite the easy, uncomplicated and pure nature of Islam, some people seek to make the religion difficult, by introducing needless details into it, and by shifting the focus from its true essence to trivial issues.

I have so much respect for groups and organisation who actually do something for the youth….the ones who actually get the youth off the streets and into the Mosques. After all they are the future of Islam…they should be our primary focus and goal.

Some years ago, I was really into finding out about the Haazir or Naazir issue or tawassul and istaghatha....but after realising that these minor issues in Islam divide the Muslim ummah and stir unnecessary emotion and debate I don’t see the usefulness about knowing about these things.

As you said, we should focus on the bigger picture. And stop trying to convert the converted.

Wasalaam

Couldn't agree more. If i knew you were going to comment, i probably wouldn't have. Just wasted my time repeated most of what u said, but the above is especially very good, esepcially in our times.

"Admin" wrote:

[assalaamu Alakaa [b]AYYU HANNABIYYU...[/b]"

yes that means 'peace be upon you O Prophet'...

but that has got nothing to do with people saying 'YA ALI MADDAD' that (O ali help us)...that is clearly a statement of shirk, and is pretty obvious, if you think its ok to say that then do so.

you are asking someone for help other that ALLAH .

yuit; i understand what you going about good thinking..

Quote:

THE HADITH OF THE MAN IN NEED

Moreover, Tabarani, in his "al-Mu'jam al saghir," reports a hadith from 'Uthman ibn Hunayf that a man repeatedly visited Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him) concerning something he needed, but Uthman paid no attention to him or his need.

The man met Ibn Hunayf and complained to him about the matter - this being after the death (wisal) of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar - so Uthman ibn Hunayf, who was one of the Companions who collected hadiths and was learned in the religion of Allah, said: "Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then come to the mosque, perform two rak'as of prayer therein, and say:

'O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I turn through you to my Lord, that He may fulfill my need,' and mention your need. Then come so that I can go with you [to the caliph Uthman]." So the man left and did as he had been told, then went to the door of Uthman ibn Affan (Allah be pleased with him), and the doorman came, took him by the hand, brought him to Uthman ibn Affan, and seated him next to him on a cushion. 'Uthman asked, "What do you need?" and the man mentioned what he wanted, and Uthman accomplished it for him, then he said, "I hadn't remembered your need until just now," adding, "Whenever you need something, just mention it." Then, the man departed, met Uthman ibn Hunayf, and said to him, "May Allah reward you! He didn't see to my need or pay any attention to me until you spoke with him." Uthman ibn Hunayf replied, "By Allah, I didn't speak to him, but I have seen a blind man come to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) and complain to him of the loss of his eyesight. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Can you not bear it?' and the man replied, 'O Messenger of Allah, I do not have anyone to lead me around, and it is a great hardship for me.' The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) told him, 'Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution (wudu), then pray two rak'as of prayer and make the supplications.'" Ibn Hunayf went on, "By Allah, we didn't part company or speak long before the man returned to us as if nothing had ever been wrong with him."

This is an explicit, unequivocal text from a prophetic Companion proving the legal validity of tawassul through the dead. The account has been classified as rigously authenticated (SAHIH) by Baihaqi, Mundhiri, and Haythami.

"naj" wrote:

"Admin" wrote:

[assalaamu Alakaa [b]AYYU HANNABIYYU...[/b]"

yes that means 'peace be upon you O Prophet'...

but that has got nothing to do with people saying 'YA ALI MADDAD' that (O ali help us)...that is clearly a statement of shirk, and is pretty obvious, if you think its ok to say that then do so.

you are asking someone for help other that ALLAH .

yuit; i understand what you going about good thinking..

I kind of think that maybe you don't understand, as you wouldn't have posted what you did above if u did. :roll:

"naj" wrote:

but that has got nothing to do with people saying 'YA ALI MADDAD' that (O ali help us)...that is clearly a statement of shirk, and is pretty obvious, if you think its ok to say that then do so.

you are asking someone for help other that ALLAH .

How do you know that those people who proclaim “'YA ALI MADDAD” are in actual fact negating the fact that Allah (swt) is the ultimate source of power and help?

Do you have knowledge of the unseen? Do you know what they are thinking? Or what they really mean?

They could be practising Tawassul. Shirk is a mighty accusation.

Yuit brother firstly you have not recognised me. I have information not knowledge.

The reason this ummah is the best is because we promote virtue and prevent vice. Hence, along with encouraging people to good it is among our duties to warn them off evil. What can be more evil than supposed men of learning rob the people of tawheed?

For some the issue of haazir naazir, ilmul ghayb, and istighaathah is a minor issue. I say to these people if these things are minor issues then why do people be so adamant in stating that Qadianis are kafir because they negate the belief in Khatme Nubuwwat? The issues above are putting partners in ALLAH'S unique attributes, yet they are deemed as minor, yet the same people will say that Qadianis are kafir cos they deny the finality of Prophethood?

Please explain this discrepancy. If I stated that the Qadianis are out to rob people of their imaan because they have challenged finality of Prophethood I am pretty certain no1 would have a problem with that. But to highlight when these bandits go around and rob people by challenging the Tawheed of ALLAH, I am told that more important issues like drugs and fornication are rampant and should be dealt with.

Alhamdulillah, I am of the view that ALL the problems have to dealt with at the same time.

The other point is the case of Holy Prophet salallahu alayhi wa sallam is different to all the rest of creation. The method of tawassul that is permitted in islaam has been clear for centuries in regards to Holy Prophet salallahu alayhi wa sallam. But the slogan Ya ALI Madad is purely and entirely shirkiya dn unfortunately the Ahlul Bidah have innovated it out of imitation of kuffar ie the shi'tes.

Qsn: The Ahlul Bid'ah will say this is no imitation of kuffar, it is an islamic slogan. Then why dont they also say Ya Abu Bakr Madad/ Ya Umar Madad/ Ya Uthman Madad ? Radhiyallahu anhum ajmaeen.
I have stated previously and reiterate this is not an issue of personal vendetta it is an issue of deen. Any1 with a clear mind who looks at this objectively will note that there is not reason whatsoever for not saying YA Abu Bakr Madad, infact if they say Ya Rasulullah salallahu alayhi wa sallam and Ya Ali then it is the ijma of islaam that After Ambiya the most virtuous is Sayyidina Abu Bakr, then Sayyidina Umar, then Sayyidina Uthman and THEN Sayyidina Ali radhiyallahu anhum ajmaeen. If this is really a part of Islam then the other Three Khulafa should also have been given the slogan.

If any1 doubts the polytheistic nature of the slogan Ya Ali Madad then your affair is with ALLAH, desist from lecturing me on islaam.

They are not minor issues.

However they are supported with evidence and ahadith, which you seem to reject.

Your false modesty is very mocking.

And I would advise you to desist in giving false lectures on islam.

Your arrogance is getting the better of you.

You are putting a false limitation on Tawassul, that past scholars have not, and you are following the Bid'ah's introduced within the last two centuries.

I beg of you to leave this bid'ahs behind. For your sake.

"Med" wrote:

I have stated previously and reiterate this is not an issue of personal vendetta it is an issue of deen.

This whole subject started as a vendetta.

lol.

What can I do if there have been bent interpretations by dodgy people in the recent past.

I find it amusing brother that what I am saying is viewed as bid'ah.

I think I have said all I need to on this issue.

Like I said before, if any1 thinks statements such as Ya Ali Madad, Ya Ghaws e Azam are not polytheism then I really have not got anything more to say.

Btw, I am hanafi not ghayr muqallid, nor do I follow Imam Ibn Taymiyyah (now HE can be called a Shaykh ul Islam) or Shaykh Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab alayhim rahmah.

Thank for your kind advice. But I am a student of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

This topic has been dealt with.

K, salaam.

"Med" wrote:

lol.

What can I do if there have been bent interpretations by dodgy people in the recent past.

I find it amusing brother that what I am saying is viewed as bid'ah.

I think I have said all I need to on this issue.

Like I said before, if any1 thinks statements such as Ya Ali Madad, Ya Ghaws e Azam are not polytheism then I really have not got anything more to say.

Then you do not having else to say, as they are not shirk.

Quote:

Btw, I am hanafi not ghayr muqallid, nor do I follow Imam Ibn Taymiyyah (now HE can be called a Shaykh ul Islam) or Shaykh Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab alayhim rahmah.

Thank for your kind advice. But I am a student of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

This topic has been dealt with.

K, salaam.

I know you do not follow them. (from My understanding Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah was in favour of Tawassul.) The second pretender you mention caused alot of fitnah.

"Med" wrote:

"Aasiyah" wrote:

"Med" wrote:

If any1 here cant see that statements calling out to people eg Ya Ali Madad, Ya Ghaws e Azam, Ya . . . .

err... and wot have shi'as got to do with Shaykh Qadri's beard??

do u try being stupid or does it come naturally?

I rate ur high level of tolerance girl

ur a top girl for ignoring such abuse-I know I wouldnt

"Med" wrote:

lol.

What can I do if there have been bent interpretations by dodgy people in the recent past.

Med think he knows better then the interpretations of many of the past scholars.

a great big mashALLAH at his humblesness

I too wish that he desists in giving lectures on Islam

I think we need a topic on arrogance.

"Admin" wrote:

I think we need a topic on arrogance.

well we have one on boasting

u can start one on arrogance (we've had that topic in the old forum)

we can start with discussing that arrogant sig of yours :twisted:

That is not arrogance.

I call it as I see it.

In the past people have insulted my by calling me a genius. Such a degrading term for one like me! albeit I humbly accepted their insults as I was not arrogant.

:twisted:

"yuit" wrote:

I kind of think that maybe you don't understand, as you wouldn't have posted what you did above if u did. :roll:

yes..i said i understand what you going about not the fact that i agreed with everything you stated.

"MuslimSister" wrote:

How do you know that those people who proclaim “'YA ALI MADDAD” are in actual fact negating the fact that Allah (swt) is the ultimate source of power and help?

here i was actually referring to the ahle-bayt....they have gone beyond the fold of islam anyway...i wasnt referring to the B's as i have not personally hear they ya ali chants or whateva...

thats another issue of haazir naazir that i dont understand about you lot.

Upon you your way and upon us ours.

"naj" wrote:

i dont understand about you lot.

who's you lot?

And I thought we were all Muslims. :roll:

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

"naj" wrote:

i dont understand about you lot.

who's you lot?

And I thought we were all Muslims. :roll:

Nah, nowadays we need to have subsection for all muslims, so we can put ourselves on a higher level to the others. Sad that today muslims need to slander and place accusations on other too give themselves this rank, forget letting our action speak louder then our words. The spirit of Brotherhood is lost on some, they get caught up in trying to be right all the time. But if funny how some people still love coming to this place of great fitnah. :roll:

"yuit" wrote:

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

"naj" wrote:

i dont understand about you lot.

who's you lot?

And I thought we were all Muslims. :roll:

Nah, nowadays we need to have subsection for all muslims, so we can put ourselves on a higher level to the others. Sad that today muslims need to slander and place accusations on other too give themselves this rank, forget letting our action speak louder then our words. The spirit of Brotherhood is lost on some, they get caught up in trying to be right all the time. But if funny how some people still love coming to this place of great fitnah. :roll:

I concur

You the man Yuit

It is now down to you to spread the spirit of brotherhood-as some people are adamant in constructing barriers between fellow muslims :roll:

But like u said-at the same time they cant keep away-even though they "left" bare times

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

"yuit" wrote:

"MuslimSisLilSis" wrote:

"naj" wrote:

i dont understand about you lot.

who's you lot?

And I thought we were all Muslims. :roll:

Nah, nowadays we need to have subsection for all muslims, so we can put ourselves on a higher level to the others. Sad that today muslims need to slander and place accusations on other too give themselves this rank, forget letting our action speak louder then our words. The spirit of Brotherhood is lost on some, they get caught up in trying to be right all the time. But if funny how some people still love coming to this place of great fitnah. :roll:

I concur

You the man Yuit

It is now down to you to spread the spirit of brotherhood-as some people are adamant in constructing barriers between fellow muslims :roll:

But like u said-at the same time they cant keep away-even though they "left" bare times

lol, u make a great cheerleader sis. But u so right as well. You think if we start chanting 'YA ALI MADDAD' they might have a nervous breakdown due to the great fitnah they have to face :roll: . I personally love my fellow Shia muslims brother, one in paricular has been a huge help too me in the past. I think people make a great error in grouping all shias into one section, but they must have been fortunate enough too have met every single shia.

I agree with Yuit.

I see people as individuals.

I went to Uni with a shia, and we talked about religion a number of times.

He did not accept the lashings, or the other numerous things we attribute to all shias. His first year at uni, he was under uni lodgings. He was a given a flat. 12 people. 1 Muslim, 11 Jews!

"yuit" wrote:

That true and i agree with the above, but i remember my mate telling me about this pious person who used to live years ago in Bangladesh I think, basically he used to live in so much seclusion in ibadah of Allah swt, that on a rare journey out, he saw a woman and scream and ran away from her and enquire about a strange creature he saw too some of his companion. [b]I know this is a extreme case, but too me interaction with other is very important in islam[/b].

"yuit" wrote:

True, but don't you think that there is more reward for helping other, especially in today society where there loads of corruption, rather then staying in seclusion. So people who actually go out there and try to impact the society and help others are more praiseworthy as long as they fulfil their duty towards Allah swt, then people who may stay at home in ibadah in seclusion. I personally think it is the case.

"yuit" wrote:

But if funny how some people still love coming to this place of great fitnah.
.

1. No doubt your comments in quote 3 are referring to me

2. But your comments in quote 1 and 2 do not concur with this third quote.

You see the importance of staying and interacting etc rather then being in seclusion so I dont see the point of your last comment. If I were to leave then accroding to your own comments thats not the way forward.

Forget whether you agree with my methods and expression or not but me leaving aint in line with your own thinking.

Nice to know people here are mates with shi'tes, have I ever forbidden any1 to do this?

I requoted the noble hadeeth.

"Med" wrote:

Quote:

"A group will emerge soon who will abuse my Sahabah and endeavor to find faults in them. As such you should not keep their company, nor dine with them nor have marriage relationships with them from either side. You should not greet them either. The curse of Allah be upon them". [Ghuniyat-ut-Tualibeen, Chapter Ummahat-ul-Momineen (Azmat-e-Sahabah), Page#164]

Everyone is free to make their own choices. Its a free world.

Following on from Med's posts, I think there has been this debate a hundred times before on this forum, about this issue and I think its time to put it to a conclusion. The only way to do that is start a new thread, one person monitors it and only two people post, one from both sides with there opinions (others can send private posts to each other to help out), no swearing but pure posts with hadeeths and names of scholars. We need to get the inner arrogancy about our beliefs into the open so people can learn and judge who's right and who maybe is going a tad astray? What do you think Admin? is it worth it, or am I going to far again as usual?