so confusing, my head's all twisted now...

but ithink i'd agree with the last sentence. i pray to God because i love Him too.

 

SubhanAllah.. Good topic

I like the following 2 quotes which speak volumes on this subject..

"worship cannot be complete or perfect unless it is accompanied by both fear and hope. Fear stops one from doing things that are forbidden and hope makes one do more good deeds." (taken from Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Explaination of Quran Surah Al Isra)"

"If I be allowed to choose between paradise and the salaat (prayer) of 2 rakaats, I would prefer salaat.  The reason is quite clear.  Paradise is for my own pleasure, while salaat is for the pleasure of my Dear Lord. (Ibn Sereen)

Gulz wrote:

 

SubhanAllah.. Good topic

I like the following 2 quotes which speak volumes on this subject..

"worship cannot be complete or perfect unless it is accompanied by both fear and hope. Fear stops one from doing things that are forbidden and hope makes one do more good deeds." (taken from Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Explaination of Quran Surah Al Isra)"

"If I be allowed to choose between paradise and the salaat (prayer) of 2 rakaats, I would prefer salaat.  The reason is quite clear.  Paradise is for my own pleasure, while salaat is for the pleasure of my Dear Lord. (Ibn Sereen)

These people have clearly reached a high level of taqwa, I pray because I fear hell.  If I truly loved Allah I wouldn't get off the prayer mat and I'd be blind for crying.  Because there is nothing worse then wanting to be with the one you love and not be able to see Him.

I don't think the best kind of Muslim is supposed to sit on the prayer mat forever, but I get Laila's point and agree.

In response to Laila...

The Prophet (sall Allahu aleyhi wasalam) said: Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way,  so you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded." sahih Bukhari, volume 1/ book 2/38.

The Prophet (sall Allahu aleyhi wasalam) said: do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately.  Always adopt a middle, moderate regular course, whereby you will reach your target (of paradise) - {Sahih al Bukhari, volume 8, hadith 470}

 

 

 

What if your target is not paradise?

laila wrote:

What if your target is not paradise?

what are we talking abt here?

muslim's target is worshipping Allah.

 To the above just to expand a little on this..

"Man and Jinn were created to worship Allah" so yes thats right as it says in the Quran and as one of the pillars of Emaan a Muslim strives in this life for the Hereafter once Judgement Day arrives and our destination is determined.. so ultimately our goal should be a target of paradise (Jannah) - InshaAllah - which is what this Hadith teaches us -  

Titanium wrote:

My mum tells me that to even THINK that God will forgive you regardless of how much you care about obeying Him or not = arrogance.

I dont understand. Does she mean to think you will be forgiven because of your actions, that is arrogance?

That's not what I meant or maybe we're both talmud about the same thing.

I meant if I thought Allah swt is forgiving *because* I'm asking him to and because I've done all this other good stuff - thats what I meant by actions. Then yes that is arrogance.

However, to believe Allah will forgive you if you ask Him is not arrogance but it is believing in Him. We may be sinners but He is the most merciful, His mercy is greater than our sins. He says as log as we come back to Him, He will forgive. Therefore to believe He won't forgive you is wrong and it is somethig that takes people away from the love of Allah swt as they don't believe they are deserving of forgiveness or just don't believe they will be forgiven, when that is not the case.

I am so surprised no one has mentioned the child grooming case in Rochdale and the sentencing of that Muslim paedophike in  Oldham. Then again, we always hide shameful things under the carpet. No balls to accept or even condone real things that are going on.  Hush hush Muslims. That sicko was adamant he was heavenly, I will miss out on heaven if he goes there

We protested about cartoons and war, but no one gives two shites about the peedos that exist in our communities, mostly top Muslim asian figures. 

All then men were Pakistani Muslims, one a religious teacher , most married. 

Yuck! Disgrace ! 

Humanist wrote:

I am so surprised no one has mentioned the child grooming case in Rochdale and the sentencing of that Muslim paedophike in  Oldham. Then again, we always hide shameful things under the carpet. No balls to accept or even condone real things that are going on.  Hush hush Muslims. That sicko was adamant he was heavenly, I will miss out on heaven if he goes there

We protested about cartoons and war, but no one gives two shites about the peedos that exist in our communities, mostly top Muslim asian figures. 

All then men were Pakistani Muslims, one a religious teacher , most married. 

Yuck! Disgrace ! 

There is a whole other topic on the issue, you can search for it using the search function at the top of the site.

Titanium wrote:

You do realise that it's a fact that the gang was a Pakistani members mainly but if anyone one of them were Muslims (TRUELY) then they wouldn't have done what they did. SO being a Muslim has NOTHING to do with it. He/they happened to be from "Muslim" families but nothing Muslim about them.

 

SO in conclusion, they may be Asian but no where near Muslim.

We don't know whether they were Muslim or not and it is not our call to decide whether they were or not. They certainly committed an action which is not allowed and should not be linked to Islam. However that doesn't make them less of a 'Muslim', that makes them sinners like the rest of us.

Where's the link to the other ttopic 

that guy praying 2 rakat after his activities made me laugh, 

Convinced his community were heavenly, decent ppl.

You hide under the name of religion, there's so many of these sickos, the Asians having highest incest % and we have no idea of the peedos they are hiding. 

 

Titanium wrote:

hmmm that's one and fairer ay to look at it but I think you're letting them off too easy.

It's not "fairer". It is the truth. We cannot go around deciding who is and isn't a Muslim. If we call someone a non-Muslim and they are infact a Muslim we get the sin for it.

Also I feel your way is also like brushing things under the carpet and unassociating yourself from people, who unfortunately, *are* associated with us. Yes, it's not Islam's fault but as people don't understand this, we have to make it clear. (though we shouldn't have to, just like we shouldn't have to explain terrorism is not a part of Islam, billions of times)

Of course this isn't even just an Asian problem, but demonising the minority sells more.

@Titanium's last post (can't quote properly)

We shouldnt be complacent about our actions, but we should expect forgiveness too. We should expect it but continue to ask for for forgiveness and continue to do good because we can never do enough and we sin so much. But like I said Allah's mercy is greater than our sins...you could perhaps say it's arrogant to think He won't forgive our sins when He is the greatest, the most merciful and the most just.

I know I have done lots if sins DESPITE knowing they are wrong. All of us have. Should everyone's loyalty be questioned? Actually you're right, we're not *loyal* enough. However that doesn't mean we don't still believe. We are all sinners and have all done wrong. Some just worse than others. Maybe they're not Muslims but they themselves have not said this, they have Muslim names and are born in Muslims families and the logical conclusion is they are Muslims who have committed really bad sins.

Yes, theyre horrible people and no one wants to be associated with them, I don't blame u for that. But like I said they are associated to us and all this ignoring is what's making our problems worse.

Titanium, do you believe tha there are people who knows more abt religion, so much so that their opinion is a lot better and more accurate and should be followed rather than our opinions?

do you believe in muslim scholars?

ignore me. but the question shouldnt have been "do you believe" but more like "do you take/follow". but dnt answer it.

I don't and wouldn't trust the scholars, they will say " forgive them ". They wouldn't even consider the damage To not just the victims, but peedos family, community etc. This thought of " forgiving them and everyone deserves a chance" is what gives grave sinners hope and the shelter under Islam. 

A female scholar might have a different opinion. 

I wonder if these people who don't clearly see the extent of damage these ppl have done would react the same if it was their Daugher sister or wife.

Even scholars would change their opinion if it was their sister or daughters victimised by such crimes.  

Am just angry why no top Muslim figure has come out and publicly condoned this. Yeh we say we don't need to explain ourselves, but don't we need to tell the non Muslims we are with them on this

Even mosques won't mention the topic, maybe because some would be hit with the truth, not to mention how many peedos would be  amongst them. 

 

It seems like they're too ashamed to talk about them...so I don't think they'd say forgive them?

Humanist - you seem to be wanting to discuss a specific issue.

You are also presuming what a scholar would say - maybe they wouldnt say what you think.

More than likely they would say, forget and forgive and just ask victim to carry in striving being a good Muslim. Telling them to wait till qiyamah. I did some research and this is what I found, e.g on sunnipath.com 

I remember once someone sent me an email from a scholar saying that even though a girl had been abused by her brothers and father, to don't neglect her duties to them. She still needs to fulfil her duties to these ppl. Asking her to carry on doing good deeds. I mean how could she, she was mentally and physically broken. He didn't suggest other things that would help, like see a gp, get help or support, talk to friends. What was shocking he didn't even mention asking the girl to speak to her family. 

Btw I work in this sort of thing but these cases have left me thinking about Islam. We are meant to be open minded but doesn't really seem to case. Hide and forget, it will go away, don't publicly condone it or even plan to help other victims come forward.

one way, to offer free counselling for muslim Childers in mosques and schools. We complain about cartoons but not about a problem that is destroying Muslims and non Muslim. I don't just blame the Muslims, but we should do more

You have good ideas, it's true we do need to tackle these sort of problems better.

What does your work involve, can I ask?

Also why do you call yourself Humanist?

And it'd be good if you created an account on the site and made you're own forum topics/blogs where you could discuss whatever you want - instead of hijacking a random thread.

TPOS wrote:

Titanium wrote:

My mum tells me that to even THINK that God will forgive you regardless of how much you care about obeying Him or not = arrogance.

I dont understand. Does she mean to think you will be forgiven because of your actions, that is arrogance?

 

No it's wishful thinking which is also not good and nearly as bad as arrogance

Humanist wrote:

I am so surprised no one has mentioned the child grooming case in Rochdale and the sentencing of that Muslim paedophike in  Oldham. Then again, we always hide shameful things under the carpet. No balls to accept or even condone real things that are going on.  Hush hush Muslims. That sicko was adamant he was heavenly, I will miss out on heaven if he goes there

We protested about cartoons and war, but no one gives two shites about the peedos that exist in our communities, mostly top Muslim asian figures. 

All then men were Pakistani Muslims, one a religious teacher , most married. 

Yuck! Disgrace ! 

Just give it a rest, for goodness sakes wasn't this topic discussed on another thread? And didn't we agree pedophilia is a worldwide disease irrespective of religion, culture.  It is evil and must be stopped.  And might I add doing evil and thinking you'll be forgiven is wishful thinking and wrong.  On the other hand doing tauba sincerely and never reverting back to the crime and then asking for forgiveness is being hopeful and not wrong. And Allah knows best.

Laila - I can discuss what I like when I like and won't give it a rest. Sounds like you just cba hearing or reading about a genuine issue. In that case don't reply. I don't think there is a thread about the recent cases. Giving it a rest is what our community does at it's best. You wouldn't if you knew or had come in contact with the poor victims. 

Does it not bother you that the Muslims have not publicly condoned this or discussed it in mosques

yes I should have started a new thread

where is the link to this other thread. 

 

Humanist- because I believe in being humane to each other first before religion. Try to be good people regardless of religion, it should be called humanity not evilness. The people who wear religion on their sleeve won't see this. Hate them sort, 

Seems to be a very active topic, i like reading everyones opinions

Ok I feel the need to reply to this one..

Humanist..

Your very opinionated on this topic.  What your saying is right and I understand exactly where your coming from because from an outside point of view if you look at these kind of scenarios its difficult to grasp where the justice in the matter is.  The things that are being advised, the fact that a big deal is not being made about such matters and the way that you have questions that are arising from all this isnt unnatural.  I mean we are but humans at the end of the day.  So I put this forward to you as an insight to some of the questions that may have arose..

What is Islam - Meaning of the word Islam is submission to 1 God - (Allah) in peace

Where does Faith stem from?  From my experince it comes from my 1 to 1 relationship with Allah which has been founded and strenghthened through Prayers and Patience.  Everyone will have a different stem to their faith because we are all different and God (Allah) guides us differently.

What is the Quran? - An instruction manual sent down from Allah for us to aquire knowledge as humans (not just as muslims) to find the true path in this worldly life through which we will be tested. Every single word in the Quran gives us an insight both to what was before us, what is happening around us and what will come next.  If you sit down and read the Quran its Wisdom is like having counselling and getting help to deal with this life which for some can get more difficult than others.

Why was the example of the Prophet RasulAllah (sall Allahu aleyhi wasalam) so important to us? - becuase from this we obtained the wisdom in dealing with worldly matters through the Hadiths which also explained in great detail why one should not concentrate on the faults of others and to try to get near to perfection ourselves.

Islam isnt difficult and as a victim of any sort of barbaric crime such as the ones being discussed, going towards Islam and its teachings will help and heal the soul (like getting any kind of professional help).  To allow people to forgive others to ensure that they dont self destruct their own souls in bitterness because that for them would be alot worse.

I do understand what your saying and the fact that it seems such an injustice that nobody talks about it enough and the evils of these people are not publically condemned by Islamic figures in the communites around us, but im trying to make you see is that this isnt what Islam is about (publically condemning). And the concept of having a forgiving nature ultimately helps one in this world as well as just looking towards the Afterlife.  The beauty of Islam allows us to obtain the patience and the will to go on and deal with the evils of this world which we have no control over.  Thats what makes Islam so peaceful.

 

Allah knows best and i hope my words have helped.