So i started a debate of with my friend yesterday about destiny. his point was kind of stupid really. he was saying that destiny is written and nothing can be done to change it. it is not his choice to walk into the middle of the road and get run over, if its written in destiny, he cant do nothing to stop it and he will automaticly walk into the road and get run over lol.
my point was obviously we have a choice in life, so our actions can change on our destiny. but i failed to put this point across to him.
could some of you clever people help me put my point acrosss???????
Destiny.....
Published by idi on 31 May, 2009 - 02:14
your friend is pretty thick then.
anyway. yes everything is written etc. we have free will, we can do what we like. when God told the pen to write, it wrote what path we would take etc. God didn't say this person will do this (God making decisions for the person), it told the pen to write what the person will choose to do. any person with an ounce of common sense will not cross the road if a car is coming, they will wait. its about choice which we have (free will - our choice (God already knows it)). if anything, that is suicide which is haram!
why would God want your friend to kill himself? how does he know that was destiny (to cross the road)? God may have wanted him to stop and wait!
i think i have drifted (i've forgotten the question! will come back and add).
Tell him to take a step back and look it from further away. fro outside the constraints of time. (weed might help)
If you are outside the constraints of time, things are just facts, their causes and consequences do not matter, they just are.
At the same time, within the dimensions we live in - time being one (probably - I have my doubts. Once when day dreaming I came up with some other theory... can't remember it but I do remember thinking that the universe in 4d would be trumpet shaped... but back onto topic of erm... destiny), there are causes and consequences.
In the same way , if you know that something will happen, it does not mean that that thing had to happen. It's like magic.
Hold a coin in your hand and let it fall. It will fall downwards. Now pick the coin up again, and tell me, if you let it go, could it stay stationary or fall upwards? (I will assume that there is a massive flaw in that argument that I cannot see)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
^that is the most confusing post/advice i've read (since the last one).
Do you think it'll work?
"It sounds clever and I do not understand one iota. It must be true"
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Salaam
(Is this the second or thrid time we've had this question on the forums?)
Okay, well the optimum position on this is, we all have free will and we move within our destinies. And then leave it at that.
Obviously you don't want to leave it there so, I'll have a stab at it...
Dawud's seven postulates
1.) You have the free-will to do what you want.
2.) We can not do anything.
3.) The ability to do anything comes from Allah SWT. (So when you think "move hand", it only moves because Allah SWT makes it move.)
4.) Thus the action is created by God, but we choose which ones we will have.
5.) There is a divinely ordained decree governing that which will happen.
6.) This decree cannot be altered by our desire.
7.) Thus we have free-will to choose our actions. Further, desire selects our actions but cannot select that which will happen to us.
The cool bit
If something will happen to us no matter what, will it occur outside of the frame-work of apparent 'cause and effect'? Apart form miracles, no it won't! So what does that tell you? Everything that will happen to us will happen as a result of our actions and therefore as a result of our free-will. This means that, if those occurences which are a result of our actions are pre-destined, then they are only pre-destined because of who we are as individuals. Meaning, that as a person, I have a structure and a fixed way of being no matter how much I change myself. This 'fixedness' means that I will always end up in certain siituations.
The interesting thing then is that our outward actions are undertaken on the basis of our inner/subtle desires and the results of those outer actions is a pre-destined outward occurence. So then the pattern of our desires, which is hidden from us makes itself known through the situations we end up in. Thus our destiny is only so because we have souls, that is, a fixed identity on a subtle/sub-conscious level.
The above is not a scholarly opinion. It is my own conjecture and spectulation.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
Salam
Our Holy Prophet Muhammad taught that everything is in the hands of God.
He is the Almighty.
God Himself says in His own Book, the Holy Quran, that: "He has power over all things."
If you dont like it, then TOUGH !!
Nothing happens but it is either willed by God or allowed by God.
These are not my rules. These are rules of God.
Omrow
So... where do you stand on responsibility?
DO you think you are responsible for your own actions?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Nope.
How can a person be responsible for his actions if they were willed by God.
God is responsible for the things He wills.
Fairness is at the heart of Prophet Mohammed's teachings.
So how is it fair that God will punish us if we sin? If we don't have any choice in our actions, then that would mean that God creates us, makes us sin, then punishes us for it.
That wouldn't be 'fair' and, as you said, fairness is at the heart of Prophet Mohammed's
teachings.
Don't just do something! Stand there.
If it is WE who sinned, then it is fair for God to punish us.
But if it is God who made us do an act then it would not
be a sin. Therefore, God would never punish us because that would be unfair.
God never wills anyone to do sin.
That would be evil.
Goodness of God is also at the heart of Prophet Muhammed's teachings.
Didnt you know that?
So if God never wills anyone to sin, where does sin come from? There is nothing outside his control/power.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Where does sin come from?
I thought all muslims would know that. Its so easy.
Sin comes from Satan.
God would never dirty His Holy Hands with things like sin and evil.
He is not responsible for what Satan does.
God is only responsible for what He Himself does, or, what He Himself wills.
The Almighty is not a perfect criminal. He is Perfect AND Good.
God is free of all corruption.
You can never charge God with corruption.
Perfection of God is also at the heart of Prophet Mohammed's teachings.
Didnt you know that?
So Omrow, are you now saying that NOT EVERYTHING happens by the will of God?
You say that evil/sin comes from Shaitan... but who made Shaitan?
from Surah al-Falaaq:
'Say: "I seek refuge with (Allah) the Lord of the daybreak,
From the evil of what He has created".'
Looks to me as if evil DOES come from God, too.
Goodness couldn't exist without evil, so perhaps it's necessary.
from South Park:
"Without evil there could be no good so it must be good to be evil sometimes."
Don't just do something! Stand there.
erm... believing that both good AND bad are ultimately from Allah is an article of faith.
Satan cannot do anything without the will of God.
However Satan has been given free will, like all other Jinn and humans. We can do evil, and that capacity has been put into us by God. However he has also given us the capacity to ignore that capacity and also the capacity to do good.
We are more than mere machines. I think.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
My friend is an atheist and the only way he manages to explain the complexity of existence and free will etc is by a multiverse.
Basically there are infinite universes, and our one is the one that the laws of physics are perfect for life. Something like that.
Don't just do something! Stand there.
I think I made that clear in the first reply. Maybe you did not read it?
God does not will everything that happens in the Universe.
God has advised believers not to read His Holy Book like Atheists.
We have to read it carefully.
You would have a case only if it had said: "From the Evil which He created."
Rather, it speaks of evil OF Satan.
God did not made Satan.
Thats simply a stupid Atheist propaganda against God. Dont fall for it.
God made Eblees.
Eblees then BECAME Satan.
Satan is a self-made guy. He just loved put on the dark shades.
Thats why Prophet Muhammad taught us a method on how to
seek refuge of those things that TURNED evil.
:doubt:
Don't just do something! Stand there.
:twisted:
:badgrin:
Where did he get that ability from?
If God did not allow him to become evil, does that mean that God is not all powerful?
If he did of it of his own will, does that mean that God cannot control all?
You either have to allow for evil to ultimately come from the will of God, or restrict the power/domain of God.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
As I said above, and I shall repeat it here again, in case you are
too lazy to go up and read it again. You are the boss after all.
Everything that happens in the Universe, happens only if
either God allows it, or He wills it.
Nothing can occur outside this.
Might of God is at the heart of Prophet Muhammad's teachings.
Didnt you know what?
Atheists propaganda seems to have worked on you boss.
Ditch it before its too late.
Atheists think like the monkeys.
They believe that God can be charged for the actions of Satan.
We dont accept such absurd claims.
Prophet Mohammed came to nurish our intellects.
Thats why we can think more clearly and reasonably.
God is NOT responsible for Eblees wanting to put on the shades.
Omrow, im still confused :S :oops:
So basically what ur saying is
??
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
yh thats what i think hez sayin...
"ThiS WoRlD Iz A PrIsOn 4 A BeLiVeR AnD PaRaDiSe 4 A NoN-BeLiVeR.........."
I did not say that.
You misread it.
That is why you are confused.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
No.
I am saying this:
1. God made Eblees.
2. Eblees wanted to be a gangster.
3. God then renamed him as Satan.
4. God informs us that Satan is out for recruitment.
5. God threatens those who sign up with Satan.
6. God protects those who request Divine protection.
The Party of Satan will be punished. The Party of God will be rewarded.
I can't make it any simpler than this.
If you read it properly, then it should be clear now.
It is clearer now. thank you
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
ur not rolling ur eyes at me are u?! :S lol
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
ok
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Bullet pointed answers are nice to read now and then.
so, M4k4v3l1 have u told ur friend yet?
which explanation r u goin to give?
'Allah gives and forgives
Man gets and forgets' Baba Ali
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