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lol I don't particularly care where they came from or what scientific value they have.
The first computer was built in 87 b.c. the first rockets before then, humans were performing brain, heart and prenatal surgery during Roman times - not just in Rome but also here in the New World by the great Incan empire.
But that has nothing to do with my point.
Science is not religion - they are not the same, one is greater than the other. I cannot accept the validity of the greater because of the validity of the lesser.
Like I said before - so the Qur'an has scientific worth. What does that tell me religiously about living my life et cetera?
You didn't answer my question here, but you did in the previous post when I asked you what was beautiful about Islam...
So you knew the answer full well - why did you reject it? Why did you deem the scientific truths of the Qur'an more important than evidence of the religious truths of the Qur'an?
Why do all muslim scholars I run across do this?
I do not understand what you all are thinking.
Yes, but the more confirmation of this point you give me - the more I can hold it to you.
lol the reason I hang on this point is because muslims try to answer questions that have never been asked.
When I ask why the Qur'an is the revealed word of God I am inherently asking (like the bible).
I do not - and few intelligent christians would - believe the bible is a history book or fact book. That's not why we believe.
So why do muslims respond with facts and figures? I have up until quite recently believed you all were muslim because you thought all of this was the point of religion!
come on Dave, i told you the reason why i emphasised on scientic proof...
but i said to you before the main reason why Muslims belive in Islam or the Quran is because that is what we believe, its faith, after reading it we get answers to our lifes, the questions of lives, in the prophet muhammad we have a perfect roel model, we have a complete way of life in Islam, it gives us faith in the hereafter, day of judgement, accountability of what we do in this life, motivatiuon to live a good life, through 5 daily prayers we can spiritual satisfaction.....and so on.
scholars- which i definitely am not- only use scientific reasons to get a point across, thats all.
You agree that science is not the reason Muslims truly believe the Qur'an is the revealed word of God.
So prove to me that the Qur'an is the bible's equal or greater?
Tell me how your reason is greater than mine.
Prove to me that this beauty you speak of is of a greater depth and is more meaningful than the bible - defeat the bible on religious terms and don't differ to secondary (and far easier) means like "science" which as you admitted yourself has little or nothing to do with why muslims truly believe the Qur'an is the revealed truth of God.
Scholars aren't using science to get a point across - they are using science to dodge a very hard, and indepth topic that would normally take years, perhaps decades to really explore. - Even Muhammad failed to convince the Christian world that the Qur'an was greater. He spent a lifetime on his ministry - why do modern muslims think they can do it in 5 minutes?
yes it is
we believe quran to be word of God because Islam tells us so.
because it is our Islamic teachings.
i can say that and nothing else.... if thats all you are after
why do you believe in the bible- 'beacuse you do , its your faith'- that is fair enough....but if i question that, that on its own wont stand up...
if an athiest said to you the bible is a load of rubbish, its made up, i dont believe in jesus...and u say well its my belief and faith...its hardly going to answer his arguments or questions now is it?
ok you shouldnt need to prove your faith , scripture but if challenged and ridiculed by others then sometimes you need to.
but Dave scientific miracles in the Quran ARE PROOF THAT QURAN IS WORD OF GOD- whether you accept it or not.
i dont need proof for what i believe, but if you want proof then scientific miracles are exactly that.
When Paul went to Athens he told the men of Athens that he saw they were "great men of religion" because he saw all the statues - and there was one to an unknown God.
He told them that he came under the banner of that unknown God - he told them about God and idols and the resurrection and when he was done he was laughed out of town. But there were a few who listened to him and so he continued on his way.
He didn't need to prove anything, the proof was the scripture, he just had to keep talking and when he was done, those that believed believed and those that did not continued to ridicule him.
I don't understand this thought that people must "defend" scripture from ridicule.
You say the Qur'an is greater - I say the Bible is greater, if I cannot convince you by simply saying what is written than I am either wrong, or you are stubborn. If you cannot convince me that the Qur'an is greater merely by telling me what is written you are either wrong or I am stubborn.
To you your believe to me mine.
for me and you to discuss quran and bible, and try to prove which is better is foolish. i respect yuour beliefs and you can respect mine. we dont have to agree on each others beliefs.
to debate on authenticity, divinity, certain verses in the bible, arguments of contradictions or fabrications, ethics, crucifixion, morality etc etc will take us years as you said..and also i dont think both of us are scholars of Islam or Christianity so providing the required answers on a scholarly level will be difficult.
My point is not to prove you wrong, but to tell you one way of how Muslims try to prove Quran is word of God. If you dont accept that, thats up to you. I persoanlly dont believe trying to debat eover each and every issue of the bible and quran will provide anything.
Debates on islam and christianituy have been going on for a thousand years or more...by people far more learnerd than you and myself.
I only asked you th equestions at the start of the thread just out o finterest to see what you like or dislike about Islam...not to start a debate with you...beacuse I dont think that is the need of the day. The need of the day is for religions to build bridges and not get bogge ddown by our differences.
ok Dave..i think we have come to a conclusion as you said:
To you your believe to me mine.
i think this discussion has been useful, well for me anyway...i hope i havent wasted your time
Okay... it looks like i'm not really reaching you on this issue of religious worth until I get rid of this scientific proof.
My earlier hypothetical situation just became un hypothetical.
Moore was paid by the Saudi government in Jeddah for his services.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/abulkazem/science_in_quran.htm
I am calling his integrity into question for that - this was not academic research it was paid research.
He did not convert to Islam
http://scienceandreligion.com/b_myst_3.html
Why wouldn't he if he really believed the Qur'an to be the revealed word of God?
And what of Bucaille?
Catholic as far as anyone still knows
http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Campbell/bucaille.html
Look,
I don't see the connection between scientific truths and religious truths - like I said before the lesser shouldn't prove the greater.
Should I become hindu because the Baghvagita provided an important clue in the answer to Fermat's great enigma?
Of course not... there is no connection between religious and scientific truth.
Surah 109 - Al Kafirun THOSE WHO REJECT FAITH
109.001 Say : O ye that reject Faith!
109.002 I worship not that which ye worship,
109.003 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109.004 And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
109.005 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109.006 To you be your Way, and to me mine
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
Woah, have I just opened a can of worms :?: Perhaps it was an inevitable eventuallity, but still.
btw the giant spider thing was from an episode of South Park, I liked that show for the simple fact it could make me laugh so hard the muscles in the back of my head would ache.
Okay Dave you seem to bring up a pertinent point, even if the Quraan is proved without a doubt to have loads of scientific truths is that enough to become a believer? For some it its, but it wasn't for me, I was looking for something of faith that would click with my internal sense of truth, my intuition if you will.
Here I would like to say why we believe the Quraan is the word of God:
At the 2005 Al Hidayah camp Proffessor Saab said something to the effect of, if you were asked which you believed first (not which one was more true, but in terms of chronology if that makes sense), the Ahadis or the Quraan, which would you say?
The muslim answer is the Ahadis first. Surprised? The reasoning is the Prophet SAW would say something and say these are the words of God inspired in me, and then say something else, the people would then ask are these also the words of God? He SAW would then say no these are my own utterings.
And thus to believe that the Quraan is the inspired words of God, we must believe the statement of the Prophet SAW (these are the words of God inspired in me), and so the Ahadis we believe first and then the Quraan.
May Allah SWT bless us all with Hidayah. Ameen.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
i would disagree with you there, but i think we will agree to disagree
You have given me more than the islamic scholars I have talked to - Perhaps you can share that with others as well.
... lol never woulda picked you for a southpark fan
That's what I call a revealed truth... something you know is right but cannot justify easily.
So what of the hadiths written by companions of Muhammad? Which hadiths are called into question most often?
We believe the Ahadis are spoken by the prophet SAW, and that his SAW companions RA recorded them.
Obviously there have been fabrications, thus there is the isnaad, the chains of authority.
This means that the transmitter and the chain of transmission is literally AS important as the Hadis itself.
Sorry to be brief but I really have to be somewhere else and i'm pretty sure when I get back home this thread is going to have eclipsed the the Tiger on in size.
Southpark? I loved it before i converted to Islaam.
okay my sister's screaming at me now, adios.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
Dave, the explanations given above are all in my view secondary. We believe in the Quran as an act of faith or a leap of faith as my RS teacher at school would say. The secondary explanations given by other members such as scientific accuracy or historical accuracy are merely logical and rational arguements which aim to rationalise our faith.
In my view FAITH is ultimately irrational and I dont see anything wrong in that. Rationally there is no evidence that God exists. I have not heard, seen, smelt, touched or tasted God. My senses have no physical awareness of HIM but still I believe. That is what we call faith.
I understand your stance that scientific truths do not mean the same as religious truths and the posts written above are rational arguements to try to make that leap of faith a little bit easier for the nonbeliever.
If you asked me why I believe Quran is Word of God my true and ultimate answer would be that I just do, I feel it in my heart. I have seen miracles in relation to this Quran. I am sure you are aware that many muslims commit the Holy Quran to memory without making one mistake in any of the vowels or consonants. For me this is a miracle; for you maybe not. In your view you might argue that if someone spent long enough they would also memorise the Bible but by us the memorisationa and preservation of the Holy Quran for over 1400 years in hearts of men make it a miraculous word.
By us the Quran is not a created speech of God, it is uncreated speech of God. It is the greatest bounty and teh greatest blessing upon us that we have the exact words of ALLAH Almighty. Your belief and even my belief does not change truth and the truth is that no other book compares with style of Quran, no other book comes even close.
Again essentially it is a matter of faith, these rational arguements are crutches provided by believers to help nonbelievers grasp at the truth but ultimately ALL must take a leap of faith in whatever they believe.
Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar
Hadith litterally means saying. Or story in swahili, but that is a different story...
Now when we use the word Hadith we mostly mean sayings of the Prophet (saw). Occasionally it is taken as someone elses saying, but that is made clear.
The lineage of authority is clear:
1. What the Quran says.
said or did.
2. What the Prophet
3. What the Sahabah said or did.
4. What other scholars etc said or did.
Number one is irrefutable. If you deny what is explicitly written in the qur'an, that is kufr. The Prophet
(and any other prophets) is we believe Ma'sum. That means clean of any sins, or the capability to sin. Their actions and words are used to clarify statements in the Qur'an.
The Sahanah were the companions, while they could sin, their extreme piety prohibited them from doing so. They are not ma'sum, but are clean of sin. Their sayings are of very high importance. Their orders are generally taken as unchallenged rulings.
If I am wrong in the above, I am sure a more knowledgeable person will correct me.
(a mistake is different from a sin.)
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
whats the diff Mr Admin?
I suppose if you don't know it's a sin then it's a mistake...
Dave even us Muslims get confused over hadiths
many are misinterpretaed
so instead of confusing ourselves over them-we admit that many are beyond our understading
hadith are not meant to be taken at face value
That was a very interesting read!
... (I think I understand the difference but want to know what you meant)
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
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