"naj" wrote:

i think everyones gettin of de hook.

But now he has started abusing the scholars.

"Amber" wrote:

These 3 statements are contradicting each other. And what exactly have you mentioned about the theological difference? And you are the one that is being abusive, or maybe as lilsis said you do need glasses!!!

Pray tell how I am being abusive. If by this u find the term Ahlul Bid'ah to be abusive then I must agree that yes I am being abusive.

But other than this term I am not aware of anything more that I have said.

And regards theology.

The Ahlul Bid'ah have made their centres the shrines of Awliya, they indulge in free mixing, they do not encourage the women to veil, they engage in excessive spenditure, they celebrate eids which were not the eidayn of islam, they celebrate the death anniversaries, they indulge in listening to music, they are attached to the dunya, they are abusive to Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

Proof . . .

1. Shrines
Pakistan is literally literred with shrines built to saints. Domes are erected over the graves. Innovated acts of bowing to the grave, doing sujood on the graves, posting letters to the deceased in letterboxes by the grave (data darbar, seen it last summer), passing stones which are in vicinity of grave over ailing parts of the body in belief that one will be cured. These are the innovations.

2. Free mixing
They do not enforce shari' hijab in their gatherings nor do they encourage their mureeds to this. They are habituated to take favours from unrelated women. Their religious gatherings are devoid of any type of hijab, rather the men and women free mix openly and unashamedly by the entrances.

3. Veil
They do not teach shari' hijab to their women. Rather they confuse them and spread mischief thus amongst the masses. They misinterpret the classical texts and give it an innovated spin. They ostensibly do this to make islaam easier and make it more attractive for people, but in reality it achieves little more than misguidance and gross negligence of a fard religious comman.

4. Spenditure
They waste money on unneccessary things. They decorate their masajid with fairy lights, and tinsel and waste masajid madaris money on these useless things. They waste electricity by this act. They unnecessarily take it to be a great act to collect money from people and to feed them food on the 11th of the month, they take this to be piety, when piety demands that money be sent to the poor and needy rather than wasted on the already obese. They consider a religious activity to be unfulfilled or incomplete if food is not present and a khatm be read over it.

5. Eid
Islam came with two eids. They have a minimum of three. ALLAH knows best about other days of Eid.

6. Death anniversaries
they organise fairs on the death anniversaries of saints and take it be a religious act. They make these a regular practice and consider such days to be of significance or to be special for some reason. On these days much evil takes place including free mixing, excessive spenditure, musis, unislamic festivities etc.

7. Music
They listen to the table and other musical instruments in so called religious events whilst music has been forbidden the Pure Religion. They listen to songs loaded with polytheistic terms and torture the Awliya by ascribing divine qualities to their pure natures. They make dance and sway their heads to the beat, they go into states of mindlessness and think they are in wajd or spiritual ecstasy.

8. Dunya
They have made it a business to charge for khatms, to charge for taweez, to charge for nearly every religious service they deliver.

9. Abuse
They are in the practice of labelling any1 who points out these innovated evils as being a wahhabi, or a deobandi, or a najdi or heretic or an apostate. They have in their books declared the members of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah in indo-pak to be kafir and say any who doubt their kufr is himself a kafir. They label the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah as deobandi, tablighi, wahhabi.

Right, but what has this got to do with the scholars mentioned???

"Med" wrote:

9. Abuse
They are in the practice of labelling any1 who points out these innovated evils as being a wahhabi, or a deobandi, or a najdi or heretic or an apostate. They have in their books declared the members of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah in indo-pak to be kafir and say any who doubt their kufr is himself a kafir. They label the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah as deobandi, tablighi, wahhabi.

And you abusing the scholars, so this classifies you as ahlul bidah as well. These scholars are your elders hasn't anyone told you to respect them?

Y knw what lady?

I have alhamdulillah said my bit.

Admin, my points on this topic are completed as of now.

"Amber" wrote:

"naj" wrote:

i think everyones gettin of de hook.

But now he has started abusing the scholars.

i dont think Med has abused any scholars because he knows as we all do that would be low and nasty and totally non productive

what needs to be done here is bad innovations need to be pointed out and of course their champions named

[i]these bad innovations have to be documented facts and not heresay or personal info which is gossip[/i]

if Med does not have time yet to discuss these matters and wishes to do so at a later date - i know i'd need time for such and undertaking then in the meanwhile we should leave the topic alone as we are going round in circles

and doing a fair bit of name calling ourselves in the process and getting our left hand angel scribbling this stuff down to be of course used against us at a later date not too distant in the future

Did you know there is a shrine at the grave of imam Abu Hanifa in Iraq?

"Med" wrote:

My answer and it will only go this far.

Hamza Yusuf is one from those who exist in every age, and their job is to be wooed by the rich and mighty and to alter the deen for a meagre price.

He is from amongst those who turn their backs on muslims in preference to the mighty and powerful on the earth.

Slander and baseless accusations!

"Med" wrote:

WHO are these puny creations who think they can do innovated practices for the betterment of the divine shariah

Btw, I havent abused the ulama of Ahlul Bid'ah. I mentioned that ours is a theological difference, not personal nor should it be abusive.

Abuse or not? Contradiction or not?

"Med" wrote:

Basically the Ahlul Bid'ah are not Ahlul Bid'ah because they have innovated good new practices, but because they engage in misguided innovated practices which have confused the masses and led to great fitnah on the earth.

Again basless accusations

I leave you to be the judge of this

"Med" wrote:

Y knw what lady?

I have alhamdulillah said my bit.

Admin, my points on this topic are completed as of now.

ducking, diving, hiding and running again med? Just avoid the question why don't you!!!

"Admin" wrote:

Did you know there is a shrine at the grave of imam Abu Hanifa in Iraq?

There are Shrines of:

Hazrat Zakriya (AS)
Hazrt Yahya (AS)
Harat Habil (AS)
Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA)
Hazrat Saukina (RA)
Hazrat Umm-e-Kalthoom (RA)
Hazrat Abu Hurraira (RA)
Hazrat Abdullah bin Jabir (RA)
Hazrat Maulana Rum (RA)
Hazrat Shams Tabraiz (RA)
Hazrat Bilal (RA), Muazzein-e-Rasool (SAW)

I can go on and on...

i know your angry Amber but we just need to give him time to put his case forward

you never know he may have a good factual case devoid of slander

"seema*" wrote:

i know your angry Amber but we just need to give him time to put his case forward

you never know he may have a good factual case devoid of slander

You are right, we will give him a chance then, but from his previous posts, he accuses and then runs and hides whats the use of this?

He says he doesn't know more than his own teacher yet he dares to slander the scholars who (keep this in mind) are not from the same belief as him.

I mean if challenges that how dare they introduce something new in Islam then to me it means he is (mazallah) challenging the hadith of Holy Prophet (SAW).

You have seen the earlier post that I have made, highlighting his abusive comments.

Don't worry I won't start biting his head off I'm going to sleep, night night

hope you have sweet dreams

chow Amber

Here's just a "lil" info on bid'ah, enjoy readin it y'all.

http://www.minhajsisters.com/home/articles/index.minhaj?dir=&id=20

o-k. so i thought i was going mad wen i saw this thread...

yet in the space of a few HOURS uv got FIVE fricken pages? wow u guys have been busy! slow down, or u mite get Repetitive Strain Injury...

so i've kinda skim-read and here's wot i see:

- Med explained who he thinks is Ahlul Bid'ah.

- Got attacked for answering the question everyone's been asking him.

- so he sed 'i have nothing more to say on the matter' yet, wadya know, 5 pages down the line he's STILL posting!

- seema proves she's a top lady by reacting with tolerance.

- Med insults Hamza Yusuf, then contradicts himself, saying he has theological differences with those scholars but would not insult them?

- amber seems to be arguing for the sake of argument.

- dave, u crack me up. it really is great to have u back!

Salam

All I know is that Satan used to say: " I will not bow before man. I worship only God."

His followers repeat the same line.

God kicked him out of Heaven.

Omrow

k, salaam.

How's hamza yusuf wooed by the rich? Apart from what you see of him on tv, lectures, other events do you know him? Did you have a chance to meet him and examine his character. Maybe ask him direct why did you do such and such. Is it wise to slander someone like that? Don't you have any fear?

I think it's all to easy to point out the faults of those who are working for the deen. What are we doing? Or point out the faults of other muslims. Although it needs to be done, we should be more concerned about our own state of affairs. How willing are we to admit our weaknesses, and make attempts to better ourselves? Why are we so concerned with the faults of scholars as the one you have mentioned above.

Whilst we should be aware of innovated practises, and things which go against our faith, we shouldn't take it to an extreme either.
In short we should concentrate on our own faults. Lately there's been a frenzied obssession with the faults of others here, perhaps we should focus on our own faults a bit more.

good post yashmaki (as always, mashaAllah).

i cant believe med can insult manygreat scholars of the deen by classifying them as ahlul bidah

admin ...are you asleep?

unbelievable....

i am locking this thread before i start ripping apart med's so-called ustaaji's and ripping apart their beliefs....