"Funzo" wrote:

@ NOOR: now your a hardcore sufi, only joking.

Define to me what a Sufi is?

it was a joke and there different parts of sufi'sm the one i am most common with is ashgabandi go to a few of there dikhr hataams.

"Ya'qub" wrote:

"Noor" wrote:

"Ya'qub" wrote:

If anyone has found something that works for them, then Alhamdulillah! Good for you. But don't try to make it 'fit' for everybody, understand that some people may have different experiences than you, or you will risk becoming as 'close-minded' as people you are criticising.

Ooh sorry! I'm not saying everyone must do group dhikr, mawlid etc but what i am saying is that they shouldn't condemn it either if proofs are given. Yes i no everyone has different experiences and what have you but they should keep an open mind about the practise and realise that some people do have proofs to back up their claims. Yes i no some people interpret different ahadith and ayat in different ways but if a scholar interprets a particular ayat or hadith then that act shouldn’t be condemned. I'm going in circles

that's the POINT!!

i didn't condemn anybody. i didn't condemn any act.

i was asked about ashura by Joey, then by you on more general matters. I gave MY reasons for ME not doing particular acts.

I didn't condemn anyone, in fact i APPLAUDED it: "If anyone has found something that works for them, then Alhamdulillah! Good for you." It wasn't a sarcastic comment.

I just thought I my viewpoint was being attacked because it didn't fit in with the view of a few people on the forum. I was explaining how I came to my conclusions. I read your evidences, and was just suggesting that you look at them with a more open mind and at least ACKNOWLEDGE that they aren't 100% clear.

Here is an example of a clear message of the Qur'an:

Quote:

By time, Verily! Man is in loss, Except those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and recommend one another to the truth, and recommend one another to patience.

Your proofs were not clear-cut.

In the end we are all answerable to Allah (swt) alone.

Oh sorry Ya'qub i didn't realise that i was attacking you, as i said, these are notes which i have quickly gathered, the more hardcore stuff i need to look for and compile a sheet type thingy but right now i don't have the time. There are loads and loads of ahadith and ayat which back up all what i say but i don't have them on me.

"Funzo" wrote:

it was a joke and there different parts of sufi'sm the one i am most common with is ashgabandi go to a few of there dikhr hataams.

The Naqshabandi Haqqani tareeqa you mean.

I can copy and paste but it's a long article so click [url=http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=784&CATE=3]here[/url] for a really good answer on the question of (Group) Dhikr. I highly recommend it to people who don't normally read long post... which includes everyone here.

I'll just post some Hadiths.

The Prophet said: "If your hearts were always in the state that they are in during dhikr, the angels would come to see you to the point that they would greet you in the middle of the road." Muslim narrated it.

The Prophet said: "The People of Paradise will not regret except one thing alone: the hour that passed them by and in which they made no remembrance of Allah."

Ibn `Umar reported that the Prophet said: "When you pass by the gardens of Paradise, avail yourselves of them." The Companions asked: "What are the gardens of Paradise, O Messenger of Allah?" He replied: "The circles of dhikr. There are roaming angels of Allah who go about looking for the circles of dhikr, and when they find them they surround them closely." Tirmidhi narrated it (hasan gharib) and Ahmad.

Muslim, Ahmad, and Tirmidhi narrate from Mu`awiya that the Prophet went out to a circle of his Companions and asked: "What made you sit here?" They said: "We are sitting here in order to remember / mention Allah (nadhkurullaha) and to glorify Him (wa nahmaduhu) because He guided us to the path of Islam and he conferred favours upon us." Thereupon he adjured them by Allah and asked if that was the only purpose of their sitting there. They said: "By Allah, we are sitting here for this purpose only." At this the Prophet said: "I am not asking you to take an oath because of any misapprehension against you, but only because Gabriel came to me and informed me that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, was telling the angels that He is proud of you!" Note that the hadith stated jalasna -- we sat -- in the plural, not singular. It referred to an association of people in a group, not one person.

"Noor" wrote:

"Funzo" wrote:

it was a joke and there different parts of sufi'sm the one i am most common with is ashgabandi go to a few of there dikhr hataams.

The Naqshabandi Haqqani tareeqa you mean.

Yeah i didnt know the full name i heard that is the most recognised?

"Funzo" wrote:

"Noor" wrote:

"Funzo" wrote:

it was a joke and there different parts of sufi'sm the one i am most common with is ashgabandi go to a few of there dikhr hataams.

The Naqshabandi Haqqani tareeqa you mean.

Yeah i didnt know the full name i heard that is the most recognised?

In English please.

"MuslimBro" wrote:

Muslim, Ahmad, and Tirmidhi narrate from Mu`awiya that the Prophet went out to a circle of his Companions and asked: "What made you sit here?" They said: "We are sitting here in order to remember / mention Allah (nadhkurullaha) and to glorify Him (wa nahmaduhu) because He guided us to the path of Islam and he conferred favours upon us." Thereupon he adjured them by Allah and asked if that was the only purpose of their sitting there. They said: "By Allah, we are sitting here for this purpose only." At this the Prophet said: "I am not asking you to take an oath because of any misapprehension against you, but only because Gabriel came to me and informed me that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, was telling the angels that He is proud of you!" Note that the hadith stated jalasna -- we sat -- in the plural, not singular. It referred to an association of people in a group, not one person.

SubhaanAllah!

"Noor" wrote:

"Funzo" wrote:

"Noor" wrote:

"Funzo" wrote:

it was a joke and there different parts of sufi'sm the one i am most common with is ashgabandi go to a few of there dikhr hataams.

The Naqshabandi Haqqani tareeqa you mean.

Yeah i didnt know the full name i heard that is the most recognised?

In English please.

I heard it was the best or most recognised practise of sufi'sm

"Funzo" wrote:

"Noor" wrote:

"Funzo" wrote:

"Noor" wrote:

"Funzo" wrote:

it was a joke and there different parts of sufi'sm the one i am most common with is ashgabandi go to a few of there dikhr hataams.

The Naqshabandi Haqqani tareeqa you mean.

Yeah i didnt know the full name i heard that is the most recognised?

In English please.

I heard it was the best or most recognised practise of sufi'sm

The Haqqani tareeqah places a lot of emphasise on purifying the soul and reaching the state of awliyah which is what Sufism is about.

"Funzo" wrote:

"Noor" wrote:

"Funzo" wrote:

"Noor" wrote:

"Funzo" wrote:

it was a joke and there different parts of sufi'sm the one i am most common with is ashgabandi go to a few of there dikhr hataams.

The Naqshabandi Haqqani tareeqa you mean.

Yeah i didnt know the full name i heard that is the most recognised?

In English please.

I heard it was the best or most recognised practise of sufi'sm

yeh the naqshbandi is the most practiced of sufi'sm

"Joie de Vivre" wrote:

Cool, cool...

Wishing you all well over the fast.

Personally i go to the hataam because of the dhikr, i have no intention of becoming a sufi.

"Funzo" wrote:

Personally i go to the hataam because of the dhikr, i have no intention of [b]becoming a sufi[/b].

LOL!!!!!!

is that how you think you become a sufi? by sitting in a gathering of dhikr?

No by talking to the main guys he asks you do you wanna meet my pir then get beht and bang get the sufi hat and your a sufi.

"Funzo" wrote:

No by talking to the main guys he asks you do you wanna meet my pir then get beht and bang get the sufi hat and your a sufi.

Funzo, Funzo, Funzo!!! When you take bayt you become a mureed of Shaykh Nazim (you are talking about the Haqqani people right?). You don’t become a sufi! And about the hat they wear, that’s down to another reason. Sufism is about purifying the soul, becoming a better person etc. It takes years to reach sufiya.

Nah i was trying to make a really really crappy joke but thanks for the info on it.
I have a pir he lives in moreh sharif, very nice man comes england now and then.

yeah of course you were :roll:

Subhanallah

reading some of these comments makes me laff...and wonder what the future of islam is gona be with e-muslims.....its one of the reasons i dont visit forums.....people amaze me.

teach yourself Islam! what a joke.....the devil inside us all would lead us astray without the aid of the pious scholars...and righteous scholars. who they are is for you to decide with your heart and the aid of Allah SWT.

I intend to respons to some of the posts when i get time inshallah.

p.s funzo...you dont know what your going on about.

OK, I've re-read every hadith or ayat posted, and none of them are conclusive at ALL!!

re: the one about 'remembing Allah (swt) standing, sitting and lying down' does NOT say 'remember Allah (swt) on you own or in groups' so it is irrelevant to the current discussion.

re: the Qur'anic verse 'remember me and I will remember you' again is silent on whether its in groups or on you own so it is also irrelevant to the discussion.

re: the ones that mention about people gathering to remember Allah (swt) by Admin, noor and others: They don't mention in what format we should 'remember Allah (swt)'. So that does NOT give us free reign to remember Him in any way we feel like!

I learned that every action is halal for us unless it is forbidden by the Qur'an of the Prophet EXCEPT in matter of ibadah, in which every action is haram unless it is allowed by the Qur'an or the Prophet (saw).

Let me give the example of salat. The Qu'ran gives good tidings to those who establish salat on many occaisions throughout, but nowhere does it lay out how to pray, or even how many prayers there are each day. For this information we need to go to the ahadith. There are hundreds (thousands?) of ahadith regarding the exact method that the Prophet conducted his prayers; which are compulsary, which are recommended and at which times of the day it is forbidden to offer prayer; how he stood, how he recited and how the Sahaba (ra) prayed while following him; plus many other details. Even so, there are still differences of opinion on small matters and following a particular madhab dictates exactly how you offer our prayer.

We can't just read the relevant surahs in the Qu'ran which give good tidings to those who establish prayer and then pray in any way we like! What if I said that I'm going to prayer 7 ra'kat for Maghrib? Couldn't I say it was 'extra ibadah' so its not harmful? Of course not! If everyone chose to pray how they liked, then there would be no Muslim unity. There is nothing in the Qur'an that says 'Don't pray 7 rak'at for Maghrib', but the sunnah of the Prophet and the consensus of the scholars dictates that I shouldn't.

So how does this relate to dhikr? Well, as you have all posted, there are ahadith which praise people who gather together to remember Allah (swt). But there are no ahadith about chanting words like football fans! There are hundred's (thousands) of ahadith about times that the Prophet and the Sahaba (ra) were gathered together, and so-and-so asked a question, or the Prophet gave so-and-so lesson. Or he related a story of the previous Prophets (as). Or he explained a particular verse of the Qur'an etc.

So, for me (and many millions of others), the ahadith that relate to people 'gathering to remember Allah (swt)' are in fact referring to people who gather to discuss religous matters, or attend lectures, or support each other by reminding each other about the Truth, and reminding each other to Patience. You can't just gather together and do whatever you like because its 'feels nice', in the same way you can't offer salat in whichever way you like.

If your happy that the ahadith posted refer to chanting, then that's up to you. But I just think that its odd that there are SO MANY ahadith relating to salat, to dua, to wudhu, to PRIVATE dhikr, to Hajj and Umrah, to eating, even going to the toilet, but there is nothing comprehensive/clear about chanting in a group.

of course Allah (swt) knows best, and I make du'aa that He accepts group chanting (because many lovely people I know do it), but its not enough for me to do it.

you need to learn about bidah properly then....not every biddah is bad.

and im not saying group dhikr is bidah

and if its not written you CANT DO group dhikr or loud dhikr....then you can do it

it cant be a bad thing if it benefits people and teh ummah

and to say it causes divides is wrong

the divides are caused by so called scholars and ulema, sects etc who are causing a fitnah today with the excessive use of Shirk, biddah, Kufr! without fully understanding these terms.

The Holy Prophet (SAW) states that he doesnt fear his Ummah will commit shirk. So why is it then that the salafi's and the like brandish the word when referring to acts engaged in by the Ahle Sunnah.

I know you never mentioned Shirk bro Ya'qub, but the people you most likely associate with and get your info from do

and its fair if you wish not to pass comment on acts you dont agree with. but dont call them a biddah. inshallah i pray you see the truth, inshallah pray we all do

jus gona bring up several random points from reading several of ur posts but not all, and several lines and not all

pakistani acts laregly you say? Bro Yaqub, you dont have to have been to other parts of the world to know what goes on there

outside of Saudi and i think Kuwait - majority arabs are sunni's. youtube Mawlid, and you wont find many pakistanis i guarentee you

sudan and laregly most african muslims - ahle sunnah again. Shaykh Abu Bakr Sudani, subhanallah promotes dhikr and Hadrah (standing Dhikr). weekly mehfils in london, attend one of his gatherings and you maye see things in a different light.

as Noor mentioned, the Habaib of Yemen, the Zaytuna Scholars, the scholars of Mauritiana, the Scholars of the past including Imam Ghazali (RA), Mawlana Rumi (RA), countless others were promotors of Dhikr as a form of meditation and reaching spiritual hights.

Who are todays select amount of scholars to go back and denounce islamic history?

with regards to differences today.........select the scholars who have correct sanad (chains of tranmission) leading to the Holy Prophet (SAW) and i guarentee you cant go wrong.

select those that taught themselves and your most likely being led by the devil.

Ever read the Hadith about the people of Najd, Ya'qub?

got more to say but getting late for Jummah

"Ya'qub" wrote:

So, for me (and many millions of others), the ahadith that relate to people 'gathering to remember Allah (swt)' are in fact referring to people who gather to discuss religous matters, or attend lectures, or support each other by reminding each other about the Truth, and reminding each other to Patience. You can't just gather together and do whatever you like because its 'feels nice', in the same way you can't offer salat in whichever way you like.

We are concerned here with the last two meanings, that of mention of Allah, as in the verse, "The believers are those who, when they hear Allah mentioned, their hearts tremble" (al-Anfal), and the Prophet's saying in Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah from Ibn Jubayr: [b]"The best dhikr is La ilaha illallah." The Prophet did not say, "the best dhikr is making a lecture"; or "giving advice"; or "raising funds." [/b]We are also concerned here with the meaning of remembrance through the heart, as in the verse: "The men and women who remember Allah abundantly" (33:35). The Prophet both praised and explained what is in the latter verse when he said, as it is related in Muslim, "The single-hearted are foremost." When he was asked, "O Messenger of Allah, who are the single-hearted?" he replied, "The men and women who remember Allah abundantly." The Prophet further elucidated the role of the heart in effecting such remembrance when he said to Abu Hurayra: "Go with these two sandals of mine and whoever you meet behind this wall that witnesses that there is no god except Allah with certitude in his heart, give him glad tidings that he will enter Paradise." (Narrated by Muslim.)

as we are talking about dhikr Allah - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KUCEze3fQ4

subhaanAllah! so beautiful maashAllah!

enjoy people!

this post is largely to do with what Naz posted....

[url=http://www.zaytuna.org/articleDetails.asp?articleID=118]Holocaust Denial Undermines Islam[/url]

Quote:

One of the greatest achievements of the Islamic scholastic tradition is ‘ilm ar-rijaal, the science of narrators.

a full read of this relatively short article by SHaykh Hamza Yusuf highlights in the sciences of Islam the importance of having a chain of narrators, chains of transmission, essentially the link back to the The Prophet SAW.

we follow these scholars who have these links, they have studied and spent lives devoted to islam. how many hadith do we know to be able to make up our own minds on Quran and Hadith verses?

that would be doing Ijtihad, and totally forgetting the importance of Consensus amongst the Ummah, which is achieved through the scholars.

terrorists and extremists use verses of Quran and Hadith to back their claims, they did as you say - read it and make their own minds up

its true that if you want to prove something and looking for Daleel, you will find it in Quran or Hadith....you can find verses which say yes to mawlid and no to mawlid, yes to dhikr, no to dhikr, yes to khalifa state, no to khalifa state.........if you believe in something before opening hadith books or the Quran, you will find verses that in your mind translate to affirm your belief.

hence why tafsir of quran is left to the experts, whose spiritual hights and piety ensure that Allah swt guides them. yes they are humans, but they are much higher than us, as nothing diffrentiates us in society, except piety. You cant read a hadith and add your own interpretation which contradicts the works of teh great Muhadithins of Islam.

my point is simple, we cant just abandon centuries of Islamic scholary works and traditions, and bow down to the view that 'its me, Quran and Sunnah'. These scholars are essentialy enabling us to live our lives according to our Quran and Sunnah by devoting their lives towards the study of Islam.

"Hadith of Abu Darda" wrote:

A man came to Abu Darda while he was in Damascus. Abu Darda asked him, "What has brought you here, my brother?" He replied, "A hadith which you relate from the Prophet (SAW)." Abu Darda asked, "Hav you come for some wordly need?" He replied, "No". "Have you come for business?". He replied, "No". "You have come only to seek this hadith?" He said, "Yes". Abu Darda then said, "I heard the Messanger of Allah (SAW) say: "Whoever travels a path seeking sacred knowlodge, Allah will place him on a path leading to Paradise. The angels lower their wings for the student of sacred knowlodge, pleased with what he is doing. The creatures in the heaven and earth seek forgiveness for the student of sacred knowlodge, even the fish in the water. The superiority of the religious scholar over the devout worshipper is like the superiority of the full moon over the other heavenly bodies. The religious scholars are the heirs of the prophets. The prophets leave no money as a bequest, rather they leave knowlodge. Whoever seizes it has taken a bountiful share." (This hadith has been reported in the Musnad of Imam Ahmed, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah relate this hadith in their compilations.)

"Quran" wrote:

Are they the same, those who know and those who dont know?

Thats Quran and Hadith highlighting the importance of knowledge and the scholars/Ulema

Imam Zaid Shakir of Zaytune has a whole book on that one Hadith subhanallah. The Heirs of the Prophet (SAW) - i have it at home. reading that leaves no doubts as to the status and importance of rightly guided scholars......and what qualities they should possess. So although humans, the rightly guided scholars have signs that us as seekers can spot, and know safely that we are following an heir to the Prophet (SAW)

OK let me get this strait.

are you saying: "Not all bi'dah is bad; this is a good bi'dah" (in which case what's point of posting all these Quranic ayat and ahadith) or are you saying "This is not a bi'dah, there is evidence for it" (in which case why post that stuff about good bi'dah and bad bi'dah)?

I can't address both points if I don't know which you are making!

side note: the khutbah today was relating to dhikrullah, the khateeb even mentioned some of the Ayat that some of you already did too. In no part did he mention any chanting in circles!

Let me get this strait: It has never been my intention to say any of you can or can't do something. But to me this whole situation seems confused. I've already looked into this, and made my decision. If my decision changes in the future the Subhanallah. I just think that there are SO MANY ways to remember Allah (swt) and worship Allah (swt) that are recommended/commanded explicitly by the Prophet Muhammad (saw), that it begs the question:
"Where do we find the time to do these things, when we could be doing some ibadah that is both highly recommended by the Prophet and also carries immense reward (Tahajjud prayer is one example, or reciting the Qur'an is another)?"

"Ya'qub" wrote:

OK let me get this strait.

are you saying: "Not all bi'dah is bad; this is a good bi'dah" (in which case what's point of posting all these Quranic ayat and ahadith) or are you saying "This is not a bi'dah, there is evidence for it" (in which case why post that stuff about good bi'dah and bad bi'dah)?

I can't address both points if I don't know which you are making!

side note: the khutbah today was relating to dhikrullah, the khateeb even mentioned some of the Ayat that some of you already did too. In no part did he mention any chanting in circles!

Let me get this strait: It has never been my intention to say any of you can or can't do something. But to me this whole situation seems confused. I've already looked into this, and made my decision. If my decision changes in the future the Subhanallah. I just think that there are SO MANY ways to remember Allah (swt) and worship Allah (swt) that are recommended/commanded explicitly by the Prophet Muhammad (saw), that it begs the question:
"Where do we find the time to do these things, when we could be doing some ibadah that is both highly recommended by the Prophet and also carries immense reward (Tahajjud prayer is one example, or reciting the Qur'an is another)?"

Theres eveidence from Quran and Sunnah for these acts so no i dont say they are a good biddah

but seeing as people use the term so often without correct understanding, just for istance IF it were Biddah...then it would fall under biddah hassana.

And it is possible to find time for these things, subhanallah people manage it. they arent compulsory or have set timetables so theres no stress or pressure to perform them. not that there is for prayers, but yes you have to pray 5 times and on time. these other acts are all voluntary and rewardable, and should be done as much as possible, when possible

simple really

and i agree there are many ways to worship Allah SWT - even working for the sake of your family and loved ones is worship. studying university can be. tehre are so many rewardable acts - why discount them? the listening of nasheeds is a rewardable act. ( i wont get started on Sima lol), why discount that? why discount dhikr?

if you dont want to or cant find time, fair do's. but call it biddah coz we should be praying tahajud? (i know your not doing that, but you are questioning the importance of these acts) i cant see how they clash

at the scholar bit of the discussuion, the teacher of the Prophet was Allah (swt), the teacher of the sahaba was the Prophet (saw), the teacher of the tabi'een were the sahaba and the teacher of the taba at tabi'een were the ta'ibeen. it's a never ending chain.

"Noor" wrote:

yeah of course you were :roll:

ARE YOU CALLING ME A LIAR?

"Sirus" wrote:

p.s funzo...you dont know what your going on about.

I dont care because i am willing to learn.