"Dr Who" wrote:

inshallah want to specialise into cardiology or neurology...and i definitely want to do surgery.

All theses aspirations, me just want to get a degree out of the way and then start to live my life,

I didn't share my New Year's resolutions. I've excelled at the main one and I'm adding another, but I might keep those to myself for now if it's cool. One that I'll share with you is I intend finally to be productive and cross some ambitions off my list, by confronting the overdue, setting myself a straightforward task each day and in particular staying in touch with the girl I like. That's going so-so. I've stayed in touch with the girl but it seems to have cooled slightly - still, I'm not finished with that - and I am being more productive but I'm nowhere near up-to-date. So I recommit.

How's everyone else getting on?

^^I thought you were married :?

mine are going good.

Got a ques for you, hope you dont mind me asking.

Will you be fasting this fri/sat for your religious event thing? Excuse my ignorance i dont know what the Jewish ppl call it. Also are your fasts the same as ours where you cant eat and drink?

Just asking out of curiosity.

a. Single. Never married.

b. Cool, you're welcome to ask. Shabbat is mostly a celebration, a time to relax with loved ones, study and pray. Work is forbidden, as is "making fire" which includes electricity and travelling except on foot. (Medical emergencies are an exception.) We don't fast on Shabbat. There are several fast days in the calendar, lasting 25 hours (exceot for one short one), usually in commemoration, repentance or as a mark of commitment. The most important is Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, which falls around September time shortly into the Jewish New Year.

"Joie de Vivre" wrote:

a. Single. Never married.

b. Cool, you're welcome to ask. Shabbat is mostly a celebration, a time to relax with loved ones, study and pray. Work is forbidden, as is "making fire" which includes electricity and travelling except on foot. (Medical emergencies are an exception.) We don't fast on Shabbat. There are several fast days in the calendar, lasting 25 hours (exceot for one short one), usually in commemoration, repentance or as a mark of commitment. The most important is Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, which falls around September time shortly into the Jewish New Year.

I don't think she was talking about shabbat,

There's a Muslim festival on this Friday/sat (I thought it was Thursday/Friday but that's not the point) that originally coincided with a Jewish festival. As the Jewish calender is different from the Hijri/Islamic calender, I don't think they coincide anymore.

The Muslim name for it is Ashura, I'm not sure what the Jewish name for it is. It commemorates the Exodus when Musa (Moses) (as) lead the Jews out of Egypt.

Thank you. That's interesting.

That festival in the Jewish calendar is Pesach (Passover), which last eight days. This year it's near the end of April. We don't fast on Pesach but there are all kinds of foods we can't eat - primarily things containing flour with the exception of Matza, the crackers that the Bnei Yisrael made very quickly to eat in the desert, immediately prior to leaving Egypt . Matzas have to be made very quickly. (They're not easy on the system but fortunately my Mum's a great cook which helps a lot.) Preparing for Pesach can take ages - basically a massive spring clean and giving away what we can't eat. Foods that won't spoil we can lock away and technically sell for the duration. Essentially it's a celebration and a commemoration of what it's all about. For the first two nights we read and discuss a long account of the events leading up to the Exodus, usually with family and lots of guests, and then we eat before concluding the service (can last very late into the night). The whole service including the meal is called the Seder. For the four intermediate days we can work as usual but the first and last two days are Yom Tov, similar to Shabbat.

Jesus' last supper was said to be a seder night so Easter falls pretty close. So there we have an event that impacts all three calendars.

What are you doing for Ashura?

I'm just fasting. Many people do lots of other things but I'm still not sure if they're actually halal or not. I don't wanna pass judgement on other people, but I've learnt in many places that many practices/celebrations were not carried out by the Prophet Muhammad (saw). If he didn't feel the need to do them, why should we?

Like?

Noor, I was talking to Joey.

This is an A to B conversation, so C your way out! :twisted:

I don't wanna bring up controversial things, but he asked so I answered. I don't wanna get into discussions that none of us are qualified to take part in.

Cool, cool. This is that one.

Wishing you all well over the fast.

So how are resolutions going?

You don't have to be qualified to discuss Islamic matters and as you said (or someone else), this place is lacking in proper discussions.

Go for it.

Well I know I'll be greatly outnumbered cos Pakistanis tend to always have extra celebrations, but I've learnt from many reliable sources, that the Prophet didn't do anything extra on these days. Therefore any extra form of worship done is a bi'dah. And if someone says 'but what is the harm of doing some extra worship etc' my reply would be 'if the was particular benefit, wouldn't the Prophet himself done it?'

The same goes for group dhikr.

I don't know of any reliable sources that say the Prophet and the Sahaba (ra) sat round in circles chanting or singing about Allah (swt). If there are sources, then the matter is completely different. But (for me) everything *should* need a proof. Otherwise it is only a few steps away from everyone going to church to sing hymns and burn incense.

I don't mean to offend anybody. I have an open mind and would like to hear alternative interpretations. This is just what I've been taught, and everything I've been taught on the matter has been backed up by Qur'an and ahadith. I don't have sources available but should be able to get them, if needed, insha'Allah.

See last post.

That doesn't say anything either way.

See last post.

"Ya'qub" wrote:

That doesn't say anything either way.

Doesn't it come down to the credibility of the ijtihad? In which case it's surely best to accept there will be differences in opinion.

"Ya'qub" wrote:

Well I know I'll be greatly outnumbered cos Pakistanis tend to always have extra celebrations, but I've learnt from many reliable sources, that the Prophet didn't do anything extra on these days. Therefore any extra form of worship done is a bi'dah. And if someone says 'but what is the harm of doing some extra worship etc' my reply would be 'if the was particular benefit, wouldn't the Prophet himself done it?'

It is related from the route of Jarir Ibn Abdullah (ra) that the Prophet said: "[b]Whosoever introduced a beneficiary action in Islam will be rewarded for his practice as well as for the practice of the people who follow him, without lessening their reward. [/b]Whosoever introduced a bad practice in Islam will take the sin for it as well as the sin of the people who follow him, without lessening their sin." Muslim

Bidah = Innovation right? The Prophet is saying, not every bidah is bad. Also, what do you mean by extra celebrations, extra worship? Can you name a few please inshaaAllah.

"Ya'qub" wrote:

The same goes for group dhikr.

Allah and His Angels send blessings on the Holy Prophet (saw). “O you who believe! Send blessings (Durood) and Salutations (Salaams) on the Holy Prophet.” Surah Al-Ahzah 33:56

This ayah is talking about sending durood and salaam on Nabi paak but it also has another hidden message in it. Allah (swt) says ‘i and the angels send durood’ which means, Allah (swt) and the Angels send durood together (collectively, in a group). So, when people do dhikr together, i.e. sitting in a circle together, they are in fact following the sunnah of the maalikah and Allah (swt). It would be shirk to say Allah (swt) and the maalikah literally sit in a circle and send durood but we as humans cannot even begin to imagine how that is done, but what we do know is that it is done together hence people sitting together.

Allah (swt) says: Remember me whilst sitting, standing and laying on your sides. That ayah clear states that their are no limits on the method used to remember Allah (swt).

Ibn `Umar reported that the Holy Prophet said: "When you pass by the gardens of Paradise, avail yourselves of them." The Companions asked: "What are the gardens of Paradise, O Messenger of Allah?" He replied: The circles of dhikr (Tirmidhi).

"Ya'qub" wrote:

I don't know of any reliable sources that say the Prophet and the Sahaba (ra) sat round in circles [b]chanting or singing about Allah (swt).[/b] If there are sources, then the matter is completely different. But (for me) everything *should* need a proof. Otherwise it is only a few steps away from everyone going to church to sing hymns and burn incense.

SubhaanAllah!

Aswad bin Saree (ra) came to the Prophet and said: I have written 2 poems, one for Allah and one for the You (Prophet (saw)). The Prophet said, sing the poem for Allah and then sing mine.
Volume 1, Hadith 342, Imam Bukhari, Adab ul Mufrad.

There were 45 munshideen (naat reciters) of the Holy Prophet including the 4 khulafa rashidun.

Imam ibn Shayba, Hadith, p366 – Abu Bakr, Umar, Ali and Uthman (ra) were all poets.

Bukhari, Kitab eidayn, Chapter 2, Hadith no: 942, 950, 952, 987, 988
Sayiddina Ayesha (ra) says there were 2 girls singing naats of the old battles of Madinah with a duff. They were singing these songs because the Prophet was asked to come to Madinah to unite the tribes. Hazrat Ayesha (ra) would sit with them girls because it would bring back memories of when the Prophet came to Madinah and the children sung Ta’al badru alayna, it was also the day of Mawlid, 12th rabbi ul awal – Birthday of the Holy Prophet (saw).

There is also another incident which took place, ummul mumineen hadrat ayesha (ra) was sitting with a group of girls who were singing songs in praise of the prophet and hadrat abu bakr (ra) walked in and said something to ayesha (ra) against the practice whereupon the messenger of Allah (swt) got up (who were laying on a bed covered up) and told abu bakr (ra) that it was their eid. (it goes something along those lines anyway, i shall try to dig up the full narration)

Hazrat Ayesha (ra) reports, Hadith no 443, Abu Hurayrah: People from hasbsnah were dancing with their spears and weapons and Umar (ra) enetered, he wanted to stop them but the Prophet said: leave them Umar.

Ali (ra) describes the companions of the Prophet, he says: "i have seen the Companions of the Messenger of Allah. i see no-one that resembles them. by Allah! they used to rise in the morning tired, covered in dust, pale, with something between their eyes resembling goat's knees, as they had spent the night chanting Allah's Book, turning from their feet to their foreheads. if Allah was mentioned they swayed the way trees sway on a windy day, then their eyes would pour out tears until by Allah they soaked their clothes." - al-Bidaya wal-Nihaya fil Tarikh by the Imam, the Hafiz, Qur'anic exegete, and historian; Ismail ibn Kathir al-Qurashi al-Hashimi vol.8 pg6.

Imam Ahmad relates from Anas (Allah be well pleased with him), with a chain of transmission all of whose narrators are those of Bukhari except Hammad ibn Salama, who is one of the narrators of Muslim, that the Ethiopians danced in front of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace); dancing and saying [in their language], "Muhammad is a righteous servant." The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "What are they saying?" And they said, "'Muhammad is a righteous servant'" (Musnad al-Imam Ahmad. 6 vols. Cairo 1313/1895. Reprint. Beirut: Dar Sadir, n.d.., 3.152).

'Ali ibn Abi Taalib said, "I visited the Prophet (Sallallahu 'alayhi wa Sallam) with Ja'far [ibn Abī Tālib] and Zayd [ibn Harithah]. The Prophet (Sallallāhu 'alayhi wa Sallam) said to Zayd, "You are my freedman (mawlā'i), whereupon Zayd began to Hajila (hop on one leg- a type of dancing) around the Prophet (Sallallāhu 'alayhi wa Sallam). The Prophet (Sallallāhu 'alayhi wa Sallam) then said to Ja'far: "You resemble me in my physical form and character" (Khalqī wa Khuluqī), whereupon Ja'far began to do the same behind Zayd. The Nabi (Sallallāhu 'alayhi wa Sallam) then said to me, "You are a part of me and I am a part of you" (anta minnī wa anā mink) whereupon I began to do the same behind Ja'far."
This is reported by Imām Ahmad in his Musnad (1:537 #857). Ash-Shākir declared it authentic in his review of the Musnad. Al-Bazzār in his Musnad with a sound chain according to Imām Al-Haythamī in his Majma' Az-Zawā'id (5:157). Also reported by Imām Al-Bayhaqī in his Sunan Al-Kubrā (8:6 #15548, 20816) as well as Ibn Abī Shaybah in his Musannaf. Ibn Sa'ad reported this in Mursal form in his Tabaqāt, 4:22.

Imam Ibn Hajar Al-Haytami, the last muharrir imam of the shafi school, was asked about Sufis dancing during their ecstasy and he upheld their practice. In part, he says, "it is permissible to stand and dance during gatherings of remembrance [m: of Allah] and audition according to a group of great scholars, among them being Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Abdussalam." (Fatawa Hadithiyya, p. 298)

(That should be enough for now, back to assignment! I know i have kind of drifted or maybe a lot but you know where i'm heading (the extra singing, dancing, worshiping?) inshaaAllah)

Did someone say Dhikr? :mrgreen:

Quote:

"The Messenger of Allah said: ‘Allah, be He be blessed and exalted, has angels who travel the highways seeking out the people of dhikr. When they find people remembering Allah, the Mighty and Majestic, they call out to one another, "Come to what you hunger for!" and they enfold them with their wings, stretching up to the lowest heaven. Their Lord asked then, and He knows better than them, "What are My slaves saying?" They say: "They are glorifying, magnifying, praising and extolling You." He asks, "Have they seen Me?" They say, "No, by Allah, they have not seen You." He asks, "And how would it be if they saw Me?" They say, "They would be even more fervent and devoted in their praise and worship." He asks, "What are they asking me for?" They say, "They ask You for Paradise." He asks, "And have they seen it?" They say, "No, by Allah, O Lord, they have not seen it." He asks, "And how would it be if they saw it?" They say: "They would be even more eager for it and they would beseech You even more earnestly." He asks, "And what do they seek My protection from?" They say, "From the Fire of Hell." He asks, "Have they seen it?" They say, "No, by Allah, they have not seen it." He asks, "And how would it be if they saw it?" They say: "They would be even more afraid and anxious to escape it." Allah says: "You are My witnesses that I have forgiven them." One of the angels says: "So-and-so is not really one of them; he came (to the gathering) for some other reason." Allah says, "They were all in the gathering, and one of them will not be excluded (from forgiveness)."’"

(Reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 6408).

"Noor" wrote:

It is related from the route of Jarir Ibn Abdullah (ra) that the Prophet said: "[b]Whosoever introduced a beneficiary action in Islam will be rewarded for his practice as well as for the practice of the people who follow him, without lessening their reward. [/b]Whosoever introduced a bad practice in Islam will take the sin for it as well as the sin of the people who follow him, without lessening their sin." Muslim

Basically your saying that extra forms of worship is a 'good bi'dah', because it increases people's consiousness of Allah (taqwa).

While I can understand that interpretation, can't you at least acknowledge the view that these extra forms of worship are a 'bad bi'dah', because they have caused many disagreements/arguments between Muslims, which is a fitnah?

In regards to the hadith Alisha posted, it says 'rememberance of Allah (swt)' but doesn't mention anything like chanting. When the Prophet gathered with the sahaba (ra), the didn't do that, instead they used to discuss religious matters, and the Prophet would teach them lessons on how to understand the Quran/ other religious issues etc. So many people take this hadith to mean gathering with that purpose.

I don't want to tell people what they can/can't do. I'm just putting my personal reasons for my decision. In the end we are all accountable to Allah (swt) alone.

I thank you Noor for your sources. But for me, none of them are fully conclusive. Yes, you can interpret them to back up your point, but some can be quite as easily interpreted to back up the other side, or to remain neutral. I'm sure you're not ignoring "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion" (5:3) and I'm sure you're aware of the hadith saying that the worse practice is introducing new elements of faith, but I agree that these also doesn't really come down 100% conclusively on either side either.

So basically the two primary sources (Quran and ahadith) remain neutral/inconclusive, and the third source (consensus of scholars) is also inconclusive, because there are many disagreements. You could of course completely discount one entire branch of Islamic scholarship, and follow one approach wholeheartedly, but I wouldn't like to do this myself because I'm too scared of the consequences if I was wrong.

In matters that are unclear, I have been taught to err on the side of caution, therefore I only do something if I'm 100% sure that it is halal.

Your posts are too long for my short attention-span...

OMG i have chocolates in my bag! woohoo

what was i saying?

[b]Seraph version:[/b]

"In matters that are unclear, I have been taught to err on the side of caution, therefore I only do something if I'm 100% sure that it is halal."

"Ya'qub" wrote:

[b]Seraph version:[/b]

"In matters that are unclear, I have been taught to err on the side of caution, therefore I only do something if I'm 100% sure that it is halal."

I can dig that.

I agree with Ya'qub

"Ya'qub" wrote:

While I can understand that interpretation, can't you at least acknowledge the view that these extra forms of worship are a 'bad bi'dah', because they have caused many disagreements/arguments between Muslims, which is a fitnah?

fitnah is only caused because people reject ahadith, if people view a certain form of ibadah as a bidah, then that's their doing. those who agree with the practice shouldn't be deprived from gaining extra baraka and ajar because some people dont agree with the act. a lot of this bidah is caused due to narrowmindess (is that a word) and not wanting to look outside the box.

and of course i'm not ignoring that ayah! but i don't see how that fits in this topic and how i'm rejecting it :?

"Quran" wrote:

Remember Me, and I will Remember You

simple, that means...........Zikr!!!!!

how collective rememberance and spiritual uplifting that cleanses the spirit and heart can be a bad thing is beyond me

you should try it.

I will leave the refrences and hadith etc to Noor as shes better equipped than me

"Sirus" wrote:

"Quran" wrote:

Remember Me, and I will Remember You

simple, that means...........Zikr!!!!!

how collective rememberance and spiritual uplifting that cleanses the spirit and heart can be a bad thing is beyond me

you should try it.

Yeah.... Zikr's good.

I always feel alot better after a whole-hearted Zikr.

"Sirus" wrote:

I will leave the refrences and hadith etc to Noor as shes better equipped than me

i could do with the help, my notes are all over the place.

"Noor" wrote:

"Sirus" wrote:

I will leave the refrences and hadith etc to Noor as shes better equipped than me

i could do with the help, my notes are all over the place.

I dont really have notes, besides the random stuff in my head

I'll look for some articles inshallah later tonight

Question 1

[b]The dhikir we do why do we switch the lights off and stuff did the prophet do that??[/b]

Answer:

There are a number of benefits:
* Imâm Ghazâlî and other Awliyâ stated that for beginners it is better make dhikr aloud and in darkness so that they can be more focused to concerntrate more (tawajju) and so that they are less likely to get distracted by the surroundings.
* Another opinion is that it helps us remember the darkness of our graves and life after death which we may all spend by ourselves. This would remind us that we may have all the luxuries of the world now but after our deaths, these goods, our families and friends will all leave us alone by ourselves. Dhikr with this frame of mind helps one relent more humbly towards their Creator. Such humbleness towards Allâh (subhânahû wa ta`âlâ) will surely not go to waste.
* During the time of the Holy Prophet (sallallâhu `alayhi wa sallam) there were no lights. They usually only used candles or lanterns if even that. So it would be entirely in accordance with the Prophetic mode of dhikr to perform it in relative darkness.
* Many superior acts of worship such as Salâtut-Tahajjud (prayer before Fajr) and seeking forgiveness in Laylatul-Qadr for example are performed in the last third of the night, the time just before Fajr (dawn). When the night is at its most darkest. The Holy Prophets night journey (Mi`râj) also took place in the night. Thus there is a beneficial feature for worshipping at night and a characteristic of the night is darkness. Hence this too plays an important role in moving close to Allâh.

Note: When we arrange dhikr gatherings, it is not made in pitch darkness though. Rather, it should be arranged with dim light to prevent harm [in some countries] from snakes, wilderbeast or an enemy attacking. [In any case, it is virtually impossible to make the surroundings pitch black and the dhikr gatherings which we see arranged are always dimly lit.]

(Answered: Shaykh Sadiq Qureishi, London Idara Minhaj-ul-Quran)

"Noor" wrote:

Also, what do you mean by extra celebrations, extra worship done by the Pakistanis? Can you name a few please inshaaAllah.

You haven't answered that question? If you are taking about mawlid etc, this stuff probably takes place more in the arab world than india and pakistan! but all the mehfils in the arab world are done undercover.

"Sirus" wrote:

you should try it.

I have attended group zhikr, more than once.

"Noor" wrote:

those who agree with the practice shouldn't be deprived from gaining extra baraka and ajar because some people dont agree with the act. a lot of this bidah is caused due to narrowmindess.

I never tried to stop anyone doing it, i was just saying why I choose not to.

The word is narrow-mindedness but i know what you mean.

"Noor" wrote:

of course i'm not ignoring that ayah! but i don't see how that fits in this topic and how i'm rejecting it.

Because that verse says that the religion is completed/perfected. Something is not perfect if you either take away from it or add to it. I wasn't saying you were rejecting it, I was pointing out that the verse can be interpreted to be against your point of view.

"Noor" wrote:

Also, what do you mean by extra celebrations, extra worship done by the Pakistanis? Can you name a few please inshaaAllah.

I was just saying that in my experience Pakistanis are more into celebrating mawlid, doing group zhikr, intercession of 'saints', other 'holy days' etc. How can you say that more of this takes place in the middle-east behind closed doors, even though you've never been there? seems strange.

I try to look at the consequences if one of us is wrong. If all/any of these acts are haram, then the hadith that you posted means anyone who does them is cursed, may Allah (swt) forgive. If they are not haram, then if I choose not to do them I won't really have lost out, because there are plenty of other praiseworthy acts for me to try, which are backed up by the Qur'an and the Sunnah. In fact, I have enough trouble trying to do all those, without trying to add more to my workload.

The Prophet said 'I guarantee a house on the outskirts of Paradise to one who refrains from argument, even if he is right' (Abu Daud) so I'm going to stop arguing now, because I don't even know if I'm right or not.

May Allah (swt) guide us all, forgive our deficiencies and enter us all into Paradise, Ameen!