ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

I know I'm repeating what you probably read but

Those who call on them intending "tawassul" cannot be blamed. As for someone who believes that those called upon can cause effects, benefit, or harm, which they create or cause to exist as Allah does, such a person is an idolator who has left Islam

It's the person's intention, if they think the dead person has the power to grant them their dua then this is clear shirk.

but why else WOULD a person mention the dead person in their dua if they didnt think they would help their dua get answered? It would be pointless otherwise. I think it is very dangerous grounds.

bilan wrote:

but why else WOULD a person mention the dead person in their dua if they didnt think they would help their dua get answered? It would be pointless otherwise. I think it is very dangerous grounds.

People use the example of what the sahabah did here to argue otherwise.

There is a specific dua where the prophet is asked for help which he taught to the sahabahs, and they continued to use this even after his passing.

Shirk is generally an issue of "do you believe that the power for this is from a source other than God?" If the answer to that question in any field is yes, it is shirk. If it isn't, it isn't.

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

You don't seem to understand the point, and I don't know how to explain it.

Anyway, as I've said there's a difference of opinion, you should read into it yourself (not just skim) and make up your own decision. If you want to carry on believing it's dangerous grounds (without looking into further) then that's up to you

smiley?

its late, but fine ill do some reading, though i dnt think there is much to understand just cos im not agreeing! (yet)

@admin do u mean the supplication mentioned in feefs post?

I haven't read fiif's post. :oops:

I am commenting on the general principle only.

EDIT - quick look, and I have come across those ahadith, dua from ahadith before too. They settled it for me when I looked into the issue yonks ago.

The power of silence wrote:

What about it? It wasn't meant to be passive aggressive, although I think that's how it came across.

i'm not gonna lie that's how it always comes across with you... I don't know why. Lol

bilan wrote:

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

Taken from SunniPath

I know copy and pasting isn't liked, but in this case I thought it'd be beneficial as sometimes people can be so lazy that they cbb to click on a link! And I thought if I broke the article down like this, it'd be easier to read.

yh..id liked to say thats true..but i canny lie

seconded.

asking someone's that's dead for intercession? but they are DEAD? and aint saints a thing christians do?

Christian sainthood is different - the word is just adopted because the overall idea resembles.

The Islamic idea for saint is "wali" meaning "friend of God" and this can be anyone and to an extent all Muslims are "friends of God" but some are closer to God than others.

The overall idea when and the theology behind shirk is if it takes power away from God, gives another source for power, or diminishes the status of God (in an insult, a partner etc), then that is shirk.

Now that can be asking someone else for help, dead or alive, or it could be as simple as eating a chocolate bar and thinking that the energy it gives is not originally from God.

The idea behind lesser intercession (as opposed to the one that happens on judgement day) is that is that power from outside the power of God? If your belief is that God has given an individual power to help, to intercede etc, then that cannot be shirk.

As for whether that is a good thing to do, that is a different debate, and here people make differnet arguments - and it should be remembered here that since there are ahadith involved, dont go for the words of an individual over the ahadith. What can be argued is the context of the ahadith etc, but what cannot be argued is "person X makes a good sounding argument so I will ignore the hadith".

On the issue of people calling shirk, the scholars will not call shirk, but that it can "lead to" shirk "if people do not understand what they are doing". Some battle this by pronouncing prohibitions, others battle this by saying that education is the cure.

Okay not always........ :roll: