To Shake Or Not To Shake

MuslimSister —

Salaam

Today I had a job interview with a teaching agency in central London; this is supposedly the best teaching agency in London, I was impressed and overwhelmed by the professionalism in that company and was desperate to make a good impression…

The guy who was interviewing me introduced himself and extended his arm out, I stood there thinking to myself “Shall I explain to him that I can’t shake hands with a non Mahram or should I pretend I didn’t notice his hand”. I must have been thinking really slowly, (it was early morning) cos then he dropped his hand (prob assuming that I never saw his hand) and leaned over and tried to kiss my cheek. I ducked quickly so he missed my cheek…boy the whole thing was SO awkward, embarrassing and cringy. :oops: :oops:

It would’ve been easier of course, if I’d explain to him briefly that a girl can’t shake hands with a guy…but what exactly does one say?

My mosque teacher used to tell me that whenever someone tried to shake her hand, she’d give them a LONG lecture and quote many hadith which go along the line of how its better for an iron nail to go through ones hand then to shake hands with a non Mahram…..somehow I don’t think this is the best way to approach this issue. :?

According to my sister and some friends, it aint no biggie to shake hands…according to others it’s the end of the world.

I was thinking, can a simple “I’m sorry my religion doesn’t allow me to shake hands with guys I’m not related to” (with a smile) get the job done?

And another thing…eye contact? Looking at members of the opposite sex straight in the eyes whilst having long conversation with them is SO embarrassing, (and isn’t it considered wrong?)…..so with your non mahram teacher, employer and manager or doctor etc where do you look?

Lowering your gaze is considered a sign of modesty…but not looking someone straight in the eyes whilst talking to them is considered by some as insecurity and disinterest…

Sometimes it’s SO much easier only dealing with Muslims….

Interestingly, I heard of guys who are strict with not shaking hands with Muslim girls but not non Muslims…

How do you guys react in similar situations?

Wasalaam

Forum

Dave — Tue, 28 Mar 2006 - 21:44

oh man i'm sorry MS!

How did he take it? - he really should have known from your apprehension...

I think the best way to tell us is just the truth - in a simple statement like above.

Anybody that has a problem with that isn't worth working for and most reasonable people shouldn't have a problem with it.

Unless they are employing you for the position of hotel concierge or something like that where it doesn't really make sense...

How do you think your interview went?

MuslimSister — Tue, 28 Mar 2006 - 21:52

[quote="† Don Karnage"]

How do you think your interview went?[/quote]

They loved me and were more then happy for me to register with them.

Thankfully they didnt dismiss me as a weirdo-lol.

Anonymous (not verified) — Tue, 28 Mar 2006 - 21:53

Awaked situation, but can I ask you how did the interview go? And mak sure you refuse to work in Rokeby Secondary school !

MuslimSister — Tue, 28 Mar 2006 - 21:58

It went really, really well. It was the best interview I've ever had, prob cos I was really relaxed and the only reason I was relaxed was cos I was SO knackered...way too tired to feel under pressure.

After my initial blunder I stopped trying to impress them and was just honest and they said they really liked me. 😃

BTW my interview was on Chancery lane (really nice place) and I got lost on the way there and back from Stratford, I'm so terrible with directions. :?

Anonymous (not verified) — Tue, 28 Mar 2006 - 22:02

[quote="MuslimSister"]It went really, really well. It was the best interview I've ever had, prob cos I was really relaxed and the only reason I was relaxed was cos I was SO knackered...way too tired to feel under pressure.

BTW my interview was on Chancery lane (really nice place) and I got lost on the way there and back from Stratford, I'm so terrible with directions. :?[/quote]

Well Alhamdulilah that’s good news 🙂 , I’m happy for you, my brother is a lecture at NewVic btw. But never be afraid to explain your beliefs to non-muslim -this isn’t criticism of any kind.

If you cant navigate on the tube then what hope is there on the A406, A13 etc… 😢

ayesha d — Tue, 28 Mar 2006 - 22:52

salamz sorry 2 change the subject but 2day i was on the bus and this guy tried touching my leg! da worst thing is dat he's my age!! im 16 btw n i live in oxford man it was soooo embarassing,every time i moved my leg he moved his hand closer,i jus blurted out 'can u get off my leg please!!' he moved his hand lol i was so annoyed coz i fink hes a muslim n i kno wthe school he's at newayz soz about that,just a story i wanted 2 share xx 😃

You — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 00:12

next time swing your handbag, and try to bust his nose.

He will get the idea...

(and youdid well)

good luck MuslimSister.

*DUST* — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 01:22

[quote="ayesha d"]salamz sorry 2 change the subject but 2day i was on the bus and this guy tried touching my leg! da worst thing is dat he's my age!! im 16 btw n i live in oxford man it was soooo embarassing,every time i moved my leg he moved his hand closer,i jus blurted out 'can u get off my leg please!!' he moved his hand lol i was so annoyed coz i fink hes a muslim n i kno wthe school he's at newayz soz about that,just a story i wanted 2 share xx :D[/quote]
:shock: pervert alert!!

u shudda slapped him. :evil:

Dave — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 01:33

[quote="ayesha d"]salamz sorry 2 change the subject but 2day i was on the bus and this guy tried touching my leg! da worst thing is dat he's my age!! im 16 btw n i live in oxford man it was soooo embarassing,every time i moved my leg he moved his hand closer,i jus blurted out 'can u get off my leg please!!' he moved his hand lol i was so annoyed coz i fink hes a muslim n i kno wthe school he's at newayz soz about that,just a story i wanted 2 share xx :D[/quote]

Wow...

That's impressively creepy - you need to get a can of mace and a fog horn.

That'l teach him.

*DUST* — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 02:29

[quote="MuslimSister"]The guy who was interviewing me introduced himself and extended his arm out, I stood there thinking to myself “Shall I explain to him that I can’t shake hands with a non Mahram or should I pretend I didn’t notice his hand”. I must have been thinking really slowly, (it was early morning) cos then he dropped his hand (prob assuming that I never saw his hand) and leaned over and tried to kiss my cheek. I ducked quickly so he missed my cheek…boy the whole thing was SO awkward, embarrassing and cringy. :oops: :oops:[/quote]aww u poor thing, i remember the first time i was in this kinda situation it was equally awkward so dont feel ur the only one its happened to. 😉

[quote="MuslimSister"]It would’ve been easier of course, if I’d explain to him briefly that a girl can’t shake hands with a guy…but what exactly does one say?
...I was thinking, can a simple “I’m sorry my religion doesn’t allow me to shake hands with guys I’m not related to” (with a smile) get the job done?[/quote]exactly right - i say summat along those lines and it works fine - as dave said, most people are very understanding.

[quote="MuslimSister"]My mosque teacher used to tell me that whenever someone tried to shake her hand, she’d give them a LONG lecture and quote many hadith which go along the line of how its better for an iron nail to go through ones hand then to shake hands with a non Mahram…..somehow I don’t think this is the best way to approach this issue. :?[/quote]lectures arent good when dealing with anyone, muslim or non-muslim. :? btw the hadith mentions a nail in one's head as opposed to hand (but i havent yet seen a reference for that particular hadith, though i've heard it a coupla times).

[quote="MuslimSister"]According to my sister and some friends, it aint no biggie to shake hands…according to others it’s the end of the world.[/quote]sorry lilsis, but i gotta say it is a big deal - that doesn't mean we have to make this apparent by over-reacting, lecturing, screaming or whatever else, but Muslim men and women are not allowed to shake hands with non-mehrams except if they are elderly.

[quote="MuslimSister"]And another thing…eye contact? Looking at members of the opposite sex straight in the eyes whilst having long conversation with them is SO embarrassing, (and isn’t it considered wrong?)…..so with your non mahram teacher, employer and manager or doctor etc where do you look?

Lowering your gaze is considered a sign of modesty…but not looking someone straight in the eyes whilst talking to them is considered by some as insecurity and disinterest…[/quote]very true, and i've often found this to be a problem as well. :? i dunno wot the solution is really. i try a mixture of lowering the gaze, and occasional eye contact, for example when you're being asked something then u look up, and look away when giving your answer. people consider it rude if you're not looking at them when they're talking to you, which is why this is such a tough one. we should ask a scholar.

[quote="MuslimSister"]Interestingly, I heard of guys who are strict with not shaking hands with Muslim girls but not non Muslims…[/quote]i think thats a lil' hypocritical, but its kinda like taking the easy way out - as u said its easier to handle with Muslims.

*DUST* — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 02:35

[quote="† Don Karnage"]you need to get a can of mace and a fog horn.

That'l teach him.[/quote]
lol it sure would teach him but it would probably also cause the bus driver to veer off and have a car accident.

Dave — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 02:37

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="† Don Karnage"]you need to get a can of mace and a fog horn.

That'l teach him.[/quote]
lol it sure would teach him but it would probably also cause the bus driver to veer off and have a car accident.[/quote]

Yah! Hey good thinkin I didn't even notice that.

Talk about a lesson he'll never forget right eh?

Bet he'll think twice of even THINKING about your leg.

*DUST* — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 03:14

[quote="† Don Karnage"][quote="*DUST*"][quote="† Don Karnage"]you need to get a can of mace and a fog horn.

That'l teach him.[/quote]
lol it sure would teach him but it would probably also cause the bus driver to veer off and have a car accident.[/quote]

Yah! Hey good thinkin I didn't even notice that.

Talk about a lesson he'll never forget right eh?

Bet he'll think twice of even THINKING about your leg.[/quote]
lol. but then again some guys may well be deafened by the fog horn but not learn their lesson. i say slap him up. then he'll think twice about coming anywhere near u. :twisted:

Anonymous (not verified) — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 04:14

I don’t want to alarm anyone, but this pervert may go onto to abuse or rape someone if he isn’t stopped earlier, the wise thing to do would have been to report him, but must be difficult when the bus is half full with passengers. If I was in this position I would have changed my seat

MuslimSister — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 16:42

The exception to this rule...

The Hanafis have stated that it is unlawful [to shake hands] with a young woman, but permissible with an elderly woman who is not sexually attractive. There is a narration from the Hanafis that stipulates that the man also not be sexually attractive. This is their wording. It says in al-Durr al-Mukhtar that "what is permissible to look at is also permissible to touch, except with an unrelated woman; it is impermissible to touch her face and hands, even if there is no fear of desire. This is because [touching] is more grave, and based on this, the unlawfulness of [touching] in-laws is established. This applies to young women. However, regarding an elderly woman who is not sexually attractive, there is no problem with shaking or touching her hand as long as there is no fear of desire."

Ibn Abidin commented further, quoting from Imam Kuhustani from Imam Kermani, that there is a narration that says that the man must also not be sexually attractive. In al-Dhakhira, it says, "If she is elderly and not sexually attractive, then there is no problem with shaking or touching her hand. Moreover, if he is elderly and is secure of his and her reaction, then there is nothing wrong with shaking her hand. If he is not secure of his reaction, or hers, then he should avoid it [shaking hands]. Muhammad permitted the man to touch her provided she was elderly and did not stipulate that the man be of the type who does not have sex [for reasons of age, infirmity, or lack of desire]. Moreover, if the woman is doing the touching, and they are both elderly, and not of those who have sex, then shaking hands is permissible."

Read more on...[url=http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=6292&CATE=3600]SunniPath…]

MuslimSister — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 16:44

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="MuslimSister"]The guy who was interviewing me introduced himself and extended his arm out, I stood there thinking to myself “Shall I explain to him that I can’t shake hands with a non Mahram or should I pretend I didn’t notice his hand”. I must have been thinking really slowly, (it was early morning) cos then he dropped his hand (prob assuming that I never saw his hand) and leaned over and tried to kiss my cheek. I ducked quickly so he missed my cheek…boy the whole thing was SO awkward, embarrassing and cringy. :oops: :oops:[/quote]aww u poor thing, i remember the first time i was in this kinda situation it was equally awkward so dont feel ur the only one its happened to. 😉

.[/quote]

We used to have family friends that were French when I was a very young child ...I remember when they used to come to our house mum would ALWAYS say Salaam to them from a very far distance 😃

equanimity — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 17:33

[quote="MuslimSister"]Interestingly, I heard of guys who are strict with not shaking hands with Muslim girls but not non Muslims…[/quote]i think thats a lil' hypocritical, but its kinda like taking the easy way out - as u said its easier to handle with Muslims.[/quote]

I would not shake hands with a girl be it non-muslim or muslim

however in a job interview situation i have shaked hands with non-muslim women , because its professionalism , however if she tried to kiss my cheeks i guess ill have to explain to her how its against our religion and customs and if they dont accept that , then thats their problem

ayesha d — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 18:25

thanx 4 the replies,u ppl r all jokaz lol! i was jus really angry but shocked at the same time! the boy is my age!! which 16 year old boy does that?? perv man!! take care xx

MuslimSisLilSis — Wed, 29 Mar 2006 - 19:07

[quote="nAS786"]

however in a job interview situation i have shaked hands with non-muslim women , because its professionalism , however if she tried to kiss my cheeks i guess ill have to explain to her how its against our religion and customs and if they dont accept that , then thats their problem[/quote]

:roll:

shaking hands with women ur not related to is ALSO forbidden

if YOU have an issue with this then thats YOUR problem

MuslimSister — Thu, 30 Mar 2006 - 21:48

I've found that when meeting people for the first time, sometimes its easier to make sure you have something in your hands such as your phone or your keys or purse...

Dave — Sun, 2 Apr 2006 - 22:51

[quote="(*_Khamzat"]I don’t want to alarm anyone, but this pervert may go onto to abuse or rape someone if he isn’t stopped earlier, the wise thing to do would have been to report him, but must be difficult when the bus is half full with passengers. If I was in this position I would have changed my seat[/quote]

This is right. Reporting him is the best course of action - he'll just keep doing it otherwise.

Anonymous (not verified) — Mon, 3 Apr 2006 - 08:03

[quote="† Don Karnage"]

This is right. Reporting him is the best course of action - he'll just keep doing it otherwise.[/quote]

This documentary I watched in year 8 (when I was 12, name of the program escapes me) showed case studies of "infamous" serial killers, focused on their upbringing/childhood. And what amazes me is that from earlier age they all tortured and killed animals (and also they had violent and abusive parents), would it be to simplistic or ambiguous to judge sex offenders have similar behavioural pattern (for example indecently touching someone)?

One bad habit leads to another!

iRazor — Mon, 3 Apr 2006 - 16:36

Ayesha, if you know what school he goes etc, find out wher he lives, and have someone go talk to his parents, or get him stabbed, either one works just fine.

*DUST* — Mon, 3 Apr 2006 - 16:38

[quote="razor"]or get him stabbed[/quote]
OY!! razor things like that shouldnt be said even in jest! :?

iRazor — Mon, 3 Apr 2006 - 16:42

[quote="*DUST*"][quote="razor"]or get him stabbed[/quote]
OY!! razor things like that shouldnt be said even in jest! :?[/quote]

Come on it was a joke, lol, now laugh, ha ha ha, there you go, feel better? No?, sorry cant help you then....

Dawud — Mon, 3 Apr 2006 - 18:30

At least he was gracious enough to say "[i]Get[/i] him stabbed" instead of do it yourself.

Still Ayesha what advice I can give you is what advice my brothers gave my sisters, if you get into trouble and you nee to fight, use both hands similtaneously and try to scratch their eyes out, or at least scratch them deeply on the face.

Personally I always found having a biro handy and being proficient in the quick stab technique (hands and thighs are good areas to stab) was useful when anticipating trouble.

Reminds me of maths when my mate J picked up a sharp pencil and went to my friend H lets have a first blood match, then got his arm caught before H could react and ended up stabbing [u]himself [/u]in the hand so blood came out. 😂

iRazor — Mon, 3 Apr 2006 - 18:35

[quote="Dawud"]At least he was gracious enough to say "[i]Get[/i] him stabbed" instead of do it yourself.

Still Ayesha what advice I can give you is what advice my brothers gave my sisters, if you get into trouble and you nee to fight, use both hands similtaneously and try to scratch their eyes out, or at least scratch them deeply on the face.

Personally I always found having a biro handy and being proficient in the quick stab technique (hands and thighs are good areas to stab) was useful when anticipating trouble.

Reminds me of maths when my mate J picked up a sharp pencil and went to my friend H lets have a first blood match, then got his arm caught before H could react and ended up stabbing [u]himself [/u]in the hand so blood came out. :lol:[/quote]

WOW, i was actually jokin Dude, but you, your more an more of a nutjob day by day lol, PS did u get my msg bout the glasses case?