Woman to lead UK Muslim prayers
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/7673845.stm
Muslim scholar Professor Amina Wadud is to give the sermon - or khutbah - at the start of a conference on Islam and feminism at Wolfson College in Oxford.
The move has provoked opposition as the tradition is that imams - always men - hold mixed services. Some believe it is against Islam for a woman to do so.
But organisers heralded it as a "leap forward" for "theological destiny".
Chairman of the Muslim Educational Centre Oxford (MECO) Dr Taj Hargey, who is organising Friday's conference, argued that the prayer service would be a step in the right direction.
"We believe Islam is a gender-equal religion," he said.
"There is a record that the Prophet Mohammed allowed a woman to lead a mixed-gender congregation, but this precedent has been ignored.
Even in Christianity Catholics still don't accept female priests
Mokhtar Badri
Muslim Association of Britain
"Women have led prayers in South Africa, Canada and the US and this is a first time here - it is a celebration."
But Mokhtar Badri, vice-president of the Muslim Association of Britain, is opposed to the sermon.
"With all respect to sister Amina, prayer is something we perform in accordance to the teachings of our Lord," he said.
"It has nothing to do with position of women in society. It is not to degrade them or because we don't think they are up to it.
"This is something divine not human. We have to do it in the way it has been ordained by God to do it.
"Women can lead prayers before other women but for this very specific point, in this situation before a congregation of men and women, a man must lead."
Protest planned
He added: "I also don't think this is a subject confined to Islam. Even in Christianity Catholics still don't accept female priests."
When Ms Wadud led a service in New York City three years ago, it had to be held in an Anglican church after mosques refused to host the event.
There are also expected to be objections to Friday's sermon at the Oxford Centre in Banbury Road, with opponents understood to be planning protests.
But Dr Hargey is undeterred.
"People thought it was a bad idea to give women the vote," he said.
"When Emmeline Pankhurst chained herself to the railings in protest there was uproar, but things move on.
"This is about theological self-empowerment - women as well as men have the right to determine their own theological destiny."
Woah...
If you desire Allah to be persistent in granting you the things you love,, be persistent in doing the things that he loves - (Imaam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)
Indeed.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
astagfirullah. Allah guide us all. ameen
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=H0QlRBVqdKY&feature=related
assalamu alaikum,
Like the brother said Divine rule comes above everything even feminist attitudes. I heard about this woman years ago, wonder how much the west is paying her to dilute the religion.
“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]
apparently shes gay, she says anytime the quran doesnt match my inteligence i take my intelligence over the quran, what do you think of the shariah law? i dont like it i prefer canada, says it all for me.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
A woman bending before men?
xSmurfy786x: Woah...
Funzo: Indeed.
Noor: astagfirullah. Allah guide us all. ameen
Omrow: Jesus H. Christ !!
Can a woman lead her husband in prayer if he doesn't know how to pray/how to say al-Fatiha?
Don't just do something! Stand there.
Allaho allim.
And by the way, where's the hadith that backs her up?
Chin up, mate! Life's too short.
First you need to back this up, and not rely on "apparently"
Chin up, mate! Life's too short.
why should i back it up? i was just quoting from the vid for anyone who hasnt watched it.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
So she has actually said this?
Chin up, mate! Life's too short.
read my last post.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
SubhanAllah I once picked up a book by this lady (not knowing at the time who she is.) It was called something like "Gender Jihaad in Islam", It talked about how she is one of the very few people who continuously struggles to submit herself to the Will of Allah through every action and event in her life, but then she started saying (I paraphrase)- I dont have a problem with hugging men or shaking their hands without gloves on when we are at an Islamic conference. And it said in that book she had already led a congretinal prayer in America.....Not surprised shes done it again, yes I really see how much she submits... :doubt:
Give us a direct answer, mate! Yes or no? It's a simple question. And you have to back it up.
Chin up, mate! Life's too short.
ok a female imam leading females in prayer i can undertsnad but why lead men. Its not as if there are no/limted number. of male imams.
No not the gum drop buttons! – Gingy
gosh do you need everything to be pointed out, if you read carefully you would see that i was quoting in a colloquial way of what yusuf estes in the video said but im gussing you intepreted something else.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
When I was at Umrah I was in the middle of Tawaf when the adhaan was called. Everyone stopped where they were and stood for salat. I was waiting, even though there was only about 2 feet space to sujood infront of me.
Then, JUST before the iqamat was called, two women stood RIGHT infront of me! What could I do? I had no space to move left, right or backwards. So I was forced to pray where I was. When time for Rukoot came, I closed my eyes, and then time for Sujood... I went down on one knee and turned my head round to point towards the sky. It was certainly better than trying to concentrate on my prayer with a woman's butt in my face.
Some people are so silly...Why couldn't they try to go the women's section...There was 15 minutes from the time of the adhaan to the start of prayer...I'm sure they could have made it.
But TBH it is easy to concentrate on Salah when the Ka'bah is a few metres in front of you...Anywhere else is more difficult.
In general, women only need to be 'separate' in that they are behind the men. There doesn't need to be a physical barrier (although I understand why it is preferred in some circumstances). I used to pray Jumah in a university sports hall, and the women were separated by a badminton net!
I HATE it that many mosques in Britain do not have prayer facilities for women. I know that they can pray at home, but what about in the centre of towns where people work and don't live?
In Syria there are almost always large spaces for women, and they are only 'hidden' with a curtain (if at all). In the Ummayad mosque (the biggest one in Damascus, where it is said that 'Isa (as) will return) there is no barrier, other than a rope to mark the women's space. There is no fitnah, people go to the mosque to PRAY, and sex is the last thing on their minds.
Don't just do something! Stand there.
Whilst we may have grievances against Amina Wudud leading prayer as a female imam (which I do not condone), we may be overlooking what is more crucial and much more pressing: her rejection of the book of Allah aza waj'al (she has stated that she denies or rejects parts of the Qur'an).
May Allah shine sweet faith upon you this day and times beyond. May your heart be enriched with peace, and may your home be blessed always. Ameen.
Shaykh al-Qaradawi has given some interesting reading on this. (views not necessarily shared?) In particular,
Dr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi's answer on women acting as imams in prayer
May Allah shine sweet faith upon you this day and times beyond. May your heart be enriched with peace, and may your home be blessed always. Ameen.
Well, unfortunately I'm in the college library and I'm not allowed to go on YouTube. So I can't see Yusuf Estes say that she believes in this. But if you're going to accuse someone of rejecting the Quran, then either they have to SAY it themselves or they need to write it down, and your statement has to be backed up. I'm not defending her but, how'd you like it if I said that you believe in, I don't know, empowering the Taliban, without even backing it up?
Chin up, mate! Life's too short.
i didnt accuse her of anythinglike i said i just stated what she said and as you said you couldnt view the video, the same problem might apply to other people aswell.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
But it seems to me you're saying that she actually said this. If she actually said this on the video, then fair enough. You're right, you have a point, but hearsay won't do.
Chin up, mate! Life's too short.
I agree with your sentiments and reservations on relying on 2nd hand information or believing in heresay, but there is some basis in what Funzo is saying:
Wadud has been recorded as favouring same-sex marriages (I suppose thats where the accusations/taunts of homosexuality derive from).
Tarek Fateh reported from a long speech she gave:
May Allah shine sweet faith upon you this day and times beyond. May your heart be enriched with peace, and may your home be blessed always. Ameen.
If you read the first bit of my comment you would realise i said apparently inferring what the guy in the video said, why did i do this? because some people like you couldnt watch the video for what ever reason, let me clarify my original post was just quoting what the guy in the video said!
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
Look, I don't mean to have a go at you! That's fine!
We just can't be 100% sure unless they themselves say that they reject bits of the Quran.
It's just that one of the things that annoys me is when people say that Tariq Ramadan rejects the Quran to fit into the West. Which is a load of rubbish, he just says that we should interpret the Quran and Sunnah whilst considering the modern implication and sitaution. Which is common sense! He even says that alcohol, adultery, interest and homosexual acts aren't gonna become halal.
Chin up, mate! Life's too short.
Courage >> please read my last post re. Amina Wadud's views
May Allah shine sweet faith upon you this day and times beyond. May your heart be enriched with peace, and may your home be blessed always. Ameen.
Has anyone else heard of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford? Or Taj Hargey for that matter?
Whilst I applaud his passion for encouraging some movement in the muslim community, he just seems like an egotistic liberal, academic who has been spending too much time with his Oxford chums. This is what you call watering-down for the masses.
Liberal Taj Hargey dares to challenge prohibitionist Islam
A woman leading Muslim prayers? Why not, says the head of an education centre in Oxford. Much that is 'forbidden' is not outlawed by the Koran. Amina Wadud is to break with tradition by leading Oxford Muslims in prayer.
The Times
October 11, 2008
British Muslim history will be made in an Oxford hall next Friday. For the first time in Britain, a woman Muslim scholar will publicly lead men and women in prayers, and deliver the khutba, or sermon.
Taj Hargey, the chairman of the group sponsoring the event at the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford (Meco), fully expects controversy. “This is going to be a major step forward in women’s rights,” he said in an interview at Wolfson College, Oxford, of which he is a member.
“But it will provoke discontent from conservatives — from the Wahhabis and their fellow travellers. The literalists interpret certain Hadith, sayings of the Prophet, as meaning that women can’t lead a community. But for us, the golden rule of Islam is that whatever is not specifically prohibited is permitted.”
He is right to expect a storm: three years ago, when Amina Wadud, the American Muslim professor due to speak on Friday, led a mixed prayer service in New York, she faced criticism and death threats. Next week, the topic of Wadud’s sermon will be justice, and it is justice that Meco seeks in promoting the event.
“Since the criterion for leading prayers is knowledge of the Koran, there’s no reason Amina Wadud shouldn’t do it,” Hargey said. “Her Koranic knowledge is superior to that of most men.”
From Inayat Bunglawalla, of the Muslim Council of Britain, the response to the forthcoming prayer service is a terse “No comment”. And he questions how representative Hargey is. “We have no dealings with Taj Hargey,” Bunglawalla said. “His organisation has no affiliation with mainstream groups in this country.”
In the eight years since starting Meco, Hargey has grown used to being cast as a marginal figure. Born in South Africa in 1961, he cut his teeth on the anti-apartheid struggle of the 1980s, and it shows. He is selfconsciously combative, with a heightened sensitivity to discrimination, whether racial or gender-related. A historian by training, he is an energetic contributor to the letters pages of newspapers, and is dismissive of Muslim scholars and leaders who don’t support Meco’s tactics or platform.
“Another coward,” he said, of one who declined his invitation to attend Meco’s forthcoming seminar on Islam and feminism. “A sissy.”
Meco recently held a public debate, arguing, daringly for British Muslims, that Islamic theology as well as British foreign policy was to blame for British “extremism”. If this echoes right-wing rhetoric, Hargey is quick to say that he detests the thinking of the Right but that in the interests of free speech it must be heard.
When a furore erupted after the Oxford Union invited British National Party leaders to speak at a debate, Hargey picketed in favour of their right to speak. “We have to rock the boat,” he said. “It needs rocking. When Rome is burning, do you just sit around and fiddle?”
In the wake of 9/11, progressive and moderate Muslim movements have been criticised — and, in some cases, have even been self-critical — for passively allowing conservatives and extremists to hijack Islamic discourse.
Nobody could accuse Hargey of quietism. While he sits at the opposite end of the ideological spectrum from Islamist extremists, he shares both their showmen’s flair and a contempt for the Muslim establishment. He is critical of Saudi Arabia — “primitive barbarians” — and has called for an internationalisation of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, “which should not be part of a tribal outfit, or a family business, as they are under the Saudis”.
Last year, after a Buckinghamshire schoolgirl mounted a legal challenge against her school, which forbade her from wearing a niqab, the veil revealing only the eyes, Meco offered to contribute toward the school’s defence. The case was thrown out, but the dramatic offer made news, and solidified Hargey’s position as an “equal opportunity critic” of both the right wing and Muslim conservatives.
He maintains that the concept of “hijab” has been misused by conservatives, and that it merely refers to the notion of modesty, not to covering hair. The Koranic verse that talks about covering up meant “cover your bosoms, not your head”, he said. “We can’t confuse the bosom with the head.”
He wants Meco — a self-funded organisation with about 200 supporters — to give Muslims “an alternative to Saudi theology”, which, he feels, dominates far too much of the British Muslim establishment.
“Why should the most prestigious mosque in the country be run by a Saudi diplomat, someone who answers to a foreign king?” he asked, referring to the Regent’s Park Mosque. “He’s not a stakeholder in British society.”
His organisation aims to be nonsectarian, welcoming Shias, Sufis, “anyone who calls themselves a Muslim”, and inviting Christian leaders to give Friday sermons occasionally. At the heart of its mission is encouraging “theological self-empowerment”. Where many madrassas focus on rote learning or blind devotion to received interpretations of Islamic traditions, Meco’s classes teach the Koran in sequence, stressing themes rather than literalist interpretations.
Hargey’s main goal, he said, is to develop a voice for British Islam, one unencumbered by the cultural baggage of South Asia or the Middle East. “The idea is to become indigenous to this landscape,” he said. “We need an Islam that is rooted in and relevant to 21st-century Britain.”
Mosque sermons need to be delivered in English, he said, not Urdu or Bengali. “In Oxford, six days a week, Muslims wear jeans or suits,” he says. “And then when they come to mosque, they suddenly put on a shalwar kameez. Do they think God only speaks to them in Pakistani dress? God doesn’t want you in that bloody dress; all he wants is a clean dress.”
Hargey will be at prayers next Friday, in a suit and tie, ready to help to make history.
May Allah shine sweet faith upon you this day and times beyond. May your heart be enriched with peace, and may your home be blessed always. Ameen.
Cool beans
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
I think this guy is well meaning, but he obviously doesn't understand that Hijab is compulsory ("Cover everything but the face and hands) and there are clear and modern reasons for it. Plus the women actually love it! Islam being relevent to the 21st Century doesn't require you to mould Islam so it's dictated by the West. The reason why men and women don't pray together is because full concentration is needed, and it's a natural man's reaction to concentrate on other things while a woman is in front of him. Plus if someone wants to wear the full veil or hijab, why not let them wear it? Him calling Saudis "primitive barbarians" isn't helpful, he should at least acknowledge the rank and file citizens. But apart from the I agree that Imams need to speak English, be in touch with Islam and 21st Century Britain and be accountable to the British public. Which is exactly what the Revival has been arguing!
Chin up, mate! Life's too short.
I think Liberalism is, on the whole, a good thing. Why do Muslims have the freedom to worship in Britain? Because of Liberalism.
Isn't the idea (fundamentally) we are all free to do anything we like as long as it doesn't inhibit others. As Muslims, we can choose to live a life that forbids drinking alcohol or sleeping with strangers, just as people are free to choose to do those if they like.
I don't see how it contradicts with anything in Islam anyway: Punishment and Reward is in the Herafter. Allah (swt) gives us all the freedom to believe in Him or not.
I think there is a story that Umar (ra), when he was Caliph, heard some strange noise coming from behind a wall (of someone's house/garden/property). He looked over the wall and saw a man doing something haram (I don't think the story says what exactly it was). Umar (ra) told the man that it was forbidden and he shouldn't do it, and the man replied that what Umar (ra) himself was doing was wrong, because he shouldn't be spying. Umar (ra) agreed with him, and let the man continue doing whatever he pleased. All actions will be Judged by Allah (swt), so I really don't see what people have against Liberalism.
There are many things that people see 'tied in' with it, such as homosexuality, drugs and other haram things. But as Muslims, we arejust as free NOT to do these things.
Don't just do something! Stand there.
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