Is "holier than though"ness pushing people from Islam?

Just following on from this post I made in another topic.

I dont like people who get all preachy.

Thats why i never do it. I prefer to lead by example and if people want to ask me a question im happy to answer it (if i can).

Not that im perfect by any means, i just dont like to think anyones above or make others believe they're below me. Its why i dont like titles either.

Who would deny that godly people are better than godless people.

I was with some freinds and debated with two Atheists last week who in the end
admitted that a clothed woman is in a better position than a naked woman.

Its common sense.

Are "godly*" people who condemn others better than those that are not as "godly*" and don't.

* Godly is defined in whatever way that that individual defines it. You may or may not agree.

The godly people dont condemn anyone, unless, of course,
the idiots ask for it.

The term 'godly' people is quite apt for this.

Because it is God's job to judge people. (and God alone's job.)

If mere humans judge other people, then they are trying to do God's work for him - and are deemed 'imposters'.

But what if a person is employed as a judge?

imo the whole preaching, holier than thou thing is exaggerated. yes, there are some who are like that but the vast majority aren't. what's the difference between preaching and giving dawah? there is nothing wrong with preaching, if done the sunnah way, after all, the prophet , sahaba preached. those who do act all superior and holy, they are far from being holy.

I was not really talking about preaching in general, but the general attitude of Muslims.

i know.

It is not alone God's job to judge people.

If that was so, He would not send down His laws and ask us to punish criminals.

If God alone judged than we would not then have criminal courts.

Therefore, God allows godly people to judge because
their judgement is in accordance with God's Law.

No matter what the rest of the world may say, we muslims judge a whore to be a bad woman.

And I think most people in the world would agree with us on this.

That is to do with the an official caliphate and being employed in such a system. The is no system like that on earth.

Plus, a judge's job is to condemn and punish the act. That doesn't mean they won't also be punished by God for it. Only if the person also repents to God, do they get forgiven.

Picture the scene. Its early morning. like really early, predawn. I go out to get the shops. On the way there I run into someone I know. and then someone guy joins us. Don't know who he is, but we talk.

And then an asian couple walk by. a guy and a girl holding hands.

The third guy gets something in his spine (I think he got a sudden bout of holier than thou disease.) and stand up straight abusing the other two. I tell him to calm down and to leave them be but oh no, he's like a raging bull that has seen red and keeps going.

(a few minutes earlier he was mentioning how he had been selling weed to some others...)

Is that what Islam is?

And then people wonder why others are pushed away.

You.

Are you saying the gentleman has to be perfect before he
can remove the banana skin from the footpath?

And then people wonder why people slip and fall.

Sometimes one isnt even 'holier than thou' but their Islamic appearance and way of life can push people away...

And I don't beleive that this is always cos of their approach...I feel that sometimes just by looking at 'religious' people, some people feel guilty because it reminds them of their own shortcomings, which they perhaps dont want to be reminded off...and this isnt the fault of the the 'religious one'...

I'm sure theer is a Hadith that mentions that if you see something wrong, it's best to confront it rather than letting it live.

True and that is not something that anything can be done about.

However, even here, the person is not pushing away from Islam but that singular "better person" and the original person also is aware of things being lacking.

I'm sure theer is a Hadith that mentions that if you see something wrong, it's best to confront it rather than letting it live.

And the qur'an tells people to use wisdom. In other words, if the confrontation makes things worse, is it really necessary? Besides, many a time it is just to make yourself feel good instead of providing/offering a solution.

Screaming at someone down the street (or anywhere really) things like "we do not allow such things here - either choose islam fully or not at all - stop insulting us all" is I am quite sure not condusive to encouraging good behaviour.

So how would YOU discuss such matters? (assuming that you do decide to erm "have-a-word")

Wisdom and tea?

As long as they are not stepping on others toes, harming/killing others, I would let them do what they want. I see more harm in preventing them, driving them underground.

Most seem to ignore that ideals have a price and it can be quite high especially if the persons do not personally buy into it heart and mind.

If they want to be good Muslims, they will be. If not, as long as they do not hurt others... leave them be.

And the da'wah here is letting them know what Islam says. Once they do know, there is no compulsion in religion.

Depends how it's delivered in my opinion.

it can either be really inspirational or it can just scare you and put you off and make you feel like there's no point doing ANYTHING if you're not doing everything.

On the other hand, Muslims that are too liberal and nice about everything can also put people off too, it takes away the drive i think if you're always like " it's ok, no one's perfect... bit at a time... lots of people don't" etc and i think in a way by giving such advice they could be sinning themselves because whilst before that person may have done it, they've then been coaxed into thinking they're not so bad afterall and they can get away with not doing anything.

I like what one of my friend does...

Lead as an example, so that people feel comfortable to follow or do.

Like, it's Jummah time and none of the ladies would fill up the first row, so she takes off her shows and sits in that empty row, followed by those who came in with her and some from the row behind. Someone's gotta dive first to show how easy and nfrightening it all is.

assalamu alaikum

I agree with what Noor said there is a fine line between giving ppl dawah and preaching or having a go at them. Nowt wrong with dawah, it's obligation on all of us to give dawah in a way that is appropriate to the level of knowledge we have, and also with the correct manners.

I also agree with Muslimsister who said sometimes ppl are put off by ppl who appear religious, because it makes them feel insecure about what they are or aren't doing spiritually. I'm not saying i'm holy and great Allah knows what i am, but i know for a fact certain friends of mine no longer wanted to hang around with me as soon as i started wearing the headscarf. Then when they saw me in a jilbab + niqab never did they go into town with me again. Didn't bother me i started going alone, and i had ample space on the bus coz no one wanted to sit near me either lol. I can see them feeling uncomfy in my presence. I really don't see why, i don't sit there talking about religion, at all. I'm the same friend i've always been to them. The insecurities lie with them, not me. I do feel upset about it but there is nothing i can do. The way i see it they were never loyal friends, because through thick and thin sincere friends are always there. If my appearance is a deciding factor of whether i can be their friend or not, then I'm better off without them.

Wedneday also gave a good example of giving dawah by example. I had a similar problem with sisters in a talk i go to. But i never had the guts to say or do anything-whuss i know. So i told the sheikh who was in charge of the talks and he made an announcement. I still helped sort the problem out right? ok i was pretty pathetic i'll try to be stronger next time lol

No, we judge the action to be bad. Maybe, the "whore" is just lost, she needs Hidaya. Allah, says in the Quran that you shouldn't push people away, and wasn't there a time when you were slightly lost? What if people pushed you away and made your life harder?

i actually agree with omrow. I don't agree with this idea that we judge the "action" and not the person. Who commmits sins and wrongdoing a individual right? Allah has given us free will to make decisions has he not? He also gave us the Quran as a form of guidance. He is testing us, at the end of this test Allah will present us with our good and bad deeds which will ultimately decide if we will enter paradise as a reward or hell for punishment.

If it were simply a case of the action being bad and not the person, Allah would not punish ppl in hell. But the very fact that hell and heaven exist, and the fact that we as muslims know we will be punished for sinning in life is proof enough that mature individuals are responsible for their actions regardless of what other factors may come into play.

To me the whore is bad because although she may have been impoverished she chose to commit zina for money. There are other impoverished ppl who would rather die than commit zina for money, they find other permissible forms of making money. Of course Allah(swt) is all merciful and He may choose to forgive such a woman, but this does not mean she is not responsible for her actions, neither does it separate her actions from her as an individual. How could it since she with her own body and mind committed the act?

It's like saying a murderer who plans and kills a victim brutally is not responsible for his actions. He is responsible. The action is bad, but even worse is the person who committed the action with the free will Allah blessed him with.

On another note i don't think it's a holier than you attitude that is pushing muslims away from practicing. Although for some individuals this may play a part unltimately Islam presents many rules which govern our life on this earth, and this can be very difficult to follow. Living in the west especially we are confronted with all the pleasures the wordly life has to offer, and practicing Islam or any mainstream religion would mean having to sacrifice some of the more unfruitful and impermissible acitivities we may otherwise take part in. I.e for youngsters entering uni many want to hang out with mates, go clubbing, have girlfriends and boyfriends, be able to dress provocatively if they wish. But if these ppl wished to practice islam these acitivites would have to be given up. With peer pressure and even a human desire to do these things it seems easier to forget about religion and enjoy the pleasures this world has to offer.

bottom line it is easier to not practice any form of religion, if religion must be practiced lets leave off practicing until we reach old age. This is the attitude i'm getting from ppl around me.

Yes. Maybe she is lost.

But then again maybe she is just a plain old whore set in her ways that she loves. Also, let me remind you of what will happen to an unrepentent prostitute. It is not her cardinal sins which will go to Hell. It is the whore herself who will be thrown in the Fire.

In the Koran, God also asks us to judge and condemn people as well.

Or did you just happen to miss that part?

As for my actions.

I would blame nobody but myself if I committed a sin.

No one forces me to do anything I do not want to do.

I would not present stupid excuses.

I was created a free man by my Creator.

Its only hypocrites who blame somebody else for the wrong they CHOSE to do.

God says that they will conntinue do this on the Day on Judgement as well.

They will blame other people for their sins.

Thats just a lazy excuse which will not save them from the Fire of Hell.

Satanic people lead astray only those who actually WANT to be pushed in that direction.

You ALWAYS have the choice to say NO.

Righteous path is clear from the Sinful path. Thats is the Koran, by the way.

God has not made matters complex. My Lord has made obvious everything that is of importance.

That is why you would not escape Hell by blaming Satan, or his evil followers.

If you did evil, then it is YOU who will be thrown in Hell.

Those who encouraged you will not escape either. God is the very Just.

Scapegoating does not work before God.

Only honesty works.

My point was that, while ultimately Allah (swt) WILL judge everyone as an individual and reward/punish that person (instead of rewarding/punishingthe actions themselves), it is not the ROLE of people to judge other people.

That is to say, WE can only judge actions and present to people our opinion that what they are doing is wrong; advise them to change their ways etc, whereas only ALLAH (swt) has the authority to judge PEOPLE as well as their actions.

Hope this makes sense, I think we all pretty much agree and any difference is more to do with terminology than differences in belief.

May Allah (swt) guide us all, and He is the best of Judges!

Not sure how you can say hanging out with mates should be given up, unless you specifically mean non-Muslim mates, in which case I still disagree.

I'm with Yaqub here.

Hajjar no one is saying that the prostitute isn't responsible, but we should not PUSH her away and think of her as filth. That's haram. Remember that Hadith about the prostitute that was forgiven purely because she saved a dog?
Always put yourself in that persons shoes, only then will people see and feel real Islam from us.

Also, you're making islam sound both boring and a drag. People want to have fun. If they wanted boredom they would start collecting stamps.

@ Hajjar - if your treatment of those people pushes them further from Islam, is it then a good or a bad thing?

One reason why people (sometimes incorrectly) avoid religious looking people is because an awful lot are judgemental and look down at others. Would you want to be around people judging you, looking down at you? I wouldn't.

Of course not everyone is like that, but once bitten twice shy.

It's like the other day, I was outside, met someone I knew, and he asked me if I had a job. I told him I was looking and immediately his neck stiffened, his back straightened with mock shock and outrage. He did not need to add "How dare you not have a job". I also did not need to add a "!£$% you!" as I walked off in silence.

(and yes, I have seen that same stiffening of the neck, straightening of the spine when the people have seen behaviour they considered morally reprehensible and "I will not stand for it in this community!". It is disgusting and not right.)

Hajjar spoke common sense.

Why are you guys rounding on her.