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Ofcourse we have to work to re-establish the Khilafah, whether or not it happens in our lifetime, we don't know. And even if we do not do anything, the Khilafah will still be established by others. But it's an obligation on us to do something and if someone else doesn't do this then I won't be judged for their actions (or omissions for that matter).
The Shaykh in the lectures did contradict certain things HT say but I will InshaAllah look at more opinions/scholars and see what they also have to say.
The Shaykh did however say "...the necessity, or the compulsory provision of the establishment of Khilafah, that's needed."
He did stress the importance of staying with the Ahlal Sunnah; Jama'ah. Coz the Prophet (pbuh) said in a Hadith that the Muslim Ummah will divide into 73 sects, 72 will go to hell while one will go to heaven. The Ahlal Sunnah (majority) will go to heaven. He didn't explicitly say that HT are a sect but I felt like he was kinda implying it.
So would anyone consider HT to be a sect? (I'm not a HT member btw).
[url=http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/aqeedah/0052.htm]This[/url] is a very good (but short) article by Shaykh 'Abdul 'Aziz ibn Baaz, if you don't know who he is then click [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd-al-Aziz_ibn_Abd-Allah_ibn_Baaz]here[/url].
are you sure lol.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
you've made that point loud and clear bro, so what are you doing to re establish khilafah? how do we fulfil this obligation then? do i have to go on a march, blow myself up or write letters?
yah.
EDIT BY ADMIN
-No sectarian stuff please?
whats a wob?
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
@Noor - you're going to dismiss this anyway but nevertheless, read this (you probably have).
Can you also explain why you think HT are a sect, bearing in mind the definition of what a sect is.
noor you played right into his trap lol.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
Yeah i've read it. Following the method of the Prophet (saw)? puh leeze! Don’t get me started on that one. Far from it. They need to sort out their aqidah first :roll: the Prophet
educated people about islam, how to do wudhu, how to pray salah, the haram the halal and once all that was covered then only did He 
establish khilafah. all HTs conferences are about khilafah and nothing but. They are a funny bunch, they have been around for 50 years and have been claiming ever since that khilafah is near errr HELLO, reality slap! Where is khilafah? I don’t see khilafah.. they’re living in a dream world. They are not working for khilafah, I repeat NOT. Msbro, what are you doing to re establish khilafah and how do we go about re establishing it? i hope you’re not ignoring this question 
im being serious this time round you sure your not ht?
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
funzo: do1.
How about no?
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane, by those who couldn't hear the music...
@ Noor - I deleted a line from your post. very serious allegation that was. One not to be made lightly.
Are the HT an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood? I remember someone saying something like that. May have been Beast?
Anyway, my question is where is it defined what form the Khilafah has to take? All this imperial stuff is old and will not work. The best you will get is like an EU or something. Like giving the OiC more power.
People have said it is a communal obligation to establish a Muslim State... any got any links to proof? any ahadith or aayahs that give this obligation? I have heard this many times, but I have not had the motivation to look into it.
Is it only necessary to provide a safe haven where Muslims are allowed to practice Islam or is more needed? if it is the former, even the UK would (potentially) meet that need. No need to establish a theocratic state. Or maybe more is needed.
Oh and looking at History, the Prophet
did not try to establish a Muslim State in Makkah. When he 
was invited to Madinah, the agreement with the locals (who wanted him there to establish peace among warring factions) is what would now be considered a constitution of sorts. Before this point there was no attempt I am aware of to establish an Islamic State. When Sahaabah's went to Abyssinia as refugees, they did not try to get their own government, but took refuge with the Negus.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Brother we are not in a position to bring about new systems in which we can live under, we're currently the victims but maybe when we gain the upper hand (which we will) we should then consider new ways and systems which are approved by Islam and are most certainly benefical to us.
It will never happen
Back in BLACK
MsBro, you cant expect to take Shaykh Bin Baz seriously..
yes its irrelevant (kind of) to the issue, but i wouldnt trust his opinion.
Provide me a sunni scholar who says that we HAVE TO work to establish a khalifa
and dont HT's say sumat like, if you dont work for it in your life, then you die in a state of jahilliya? if so, do you agree with that?
The concept of an Islamic State is obviously good, but its impossible at the moment with so many other issues th Ummah is facing. and then there are the questions of how exactly do you go about doing it. practically, not speeches and rally's coz thats not working.
and yes HT have now become a group or sect of their own, the organisation has its own leaders and subleades, ideologies, methodologies, beliefs (which really only concern one issue - the islamic state)
if they werent a sect, why hav i not come across as a tableeghi HT, or a salafi HT, or a brelwi HT, Sunni HT, shiia HT, deobandi HT, etc?
HT's follow their on teachers and hav their own views etc, enough to distinguish themselves from the other groups, hence IMO they are a sect
a very badly guided one at that too
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
Optimism, i like that.
they say, whoever dies without giving baya to an Amir they die a death of jahiliyah. but there is no Amir? which they then say, its fardh to work for a fardh SO you have to give baya to HT :? because they are the only group working for khilafah :roll:
also said, if there is no Amir, then leave all the firaq (sectarian groups) and keep silent. that pretty much throws HTs argument apart.
the Prophet
and are HT a sect? Yes.
if people are going to brandish around words like 'sect', it is important to establish mutual definitions as to what the words mean. I refer you all to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church-sect_typology
standard A-Level Sociology of Religion, but quite interesting.
Islam doesn't fit the definition of 'Church' exactly, but it has many similarities.
That is IF you can call 'Islam' one big solid block, which I'm not sure you can.
Maybe you can call some peoples' VERSION of Islam a Church, and others' a Sect.
Also there are some Muslims who's religious practices are more similar to a 'Cult' using this set of definitions.
Don't just do something! Stand there.
Here's what I got.
[b]Khilafah: An established obligation[/b]
Allah (subhanahu wa ta’aala) says:
فَلاَ وَرَبِّكَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّى يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لاَ يَجِدُواْ فِى أَنفُسِهِمْ حَرَجاً مِّمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُواْ تَسْلِيماً
"But no, by your Lord, they will not have Eeman until they make you (O Prophet) rule between them in that which they dispute, and they find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction" (TMQ 4:65).
إِنَّآ أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَـبَ بِالْحَقِّ لِتَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ بِمَآ أَرَاكَ اللَّهُ وَلاَ تَكُنْ لِّلْخَآئِنِينَ خَصِيماً - وَاسْتَغْفِرِ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً
"Indeed, we have revealed to you the book with the truth so that you may rule between mankind by that which Allah has shown you" (TMQ 4:105).
فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَآءَهُمْ عَمَّا جَآءَكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ
"So rule between them by that which Allah has revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them in case they seduce you from just some part of that which Allah has revealed to you" (TMQ 4:49).
وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْكَـفِرُونَ
فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الظَّـلِمُونَ
الْمُقْسِطِينَ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ
"Whosoever does not rule by that which Allah has revealed, they are disbelievers (Kafiroon).....the thaalimoon (oppressors)....the fasiqoon (evil doers)" (TMQ 4. 5:44-47)
These ayaat (verses) of Qur'an, and many others, prove beyond doubt the obligation of ruling by what Allah has revealed. The first one in particular refers to the Muslims directly by stating that we have no real Imaan (belief) until we make them judge between us by Allah's revelation. This is an indication of the obligation for all Muslims to establish Allah's ruling system.
Our beloved Prophet (salAllahu alaihi wasallam) conveyed many sayings which emphasised the importance of the khilafah.
Imam Muslim narrated from Abu Hazim who said:
I was with Abu Hurairah for five years and I heard him narrate from the Prophet (salAllahu alaihi wasallam) that he said: "The Prophets used to rule Bani Israel. Whenever a prophet died another prophet succeeded him, but there will be no prophets after me; instead there will be Khulafaa' (Khalifahs) and they will number many". They asked: what then do you order us? He said: "fulfill allegiance to them one after the other. Give them their dues. Verily Allah will ask them about what he entrusted them with".
This Hadeeth is a clear statement of the fact that the form of government in Islam, after the Prophet (salAllahu alaihi wasallam) is the Khilafah, and not an Islamic Republic, Islamic Socialist Republic or Islamic Imarah. This understanding is supported by numerous other Ahadith that indicate the only system of government in Islam is the Khilafah.
Imam Muslim narrated from Abdullah bin 'Umar who said that the Prophet
said,
"One who dies without having bound himself by an oath of allegiance (to a Khaleefah) will die the death of one belonging to the days of ignorance (Jahiliyah)".
Ahmed and Ibn abi 'Asim narrated that the Prophet
said,
"Whosoever dies and he does not have over him an Imaam, he dies the death of Jahilyyah".
Thus the Prophet (salAllahu alaihi wasallam) made it compulsory that every Muslim should have over him an Imam, which is also represented by having a pledge of allegiance (bay’ah) on his or her neck. The pledge of allegiance is not given to anyone except the Khaleefah. The Ahadith inform us that those who run the affairs of Muslims are Khulafaa’a (some times called Amir ul-Mu'mineen or the Imam). Therefore, this is a command to establish or appoint them.
[u]The classical scholars have clearly clarified the necessity of the Khilafah, despite the fact they live whilst it existed[/u].
[b]Sheikh Abd al-Rahman al-Jaziri (1299-1360 AH)[/b]
The Imams (scholars of the four schools of thought)- may Allah have mercy on them- agree that the Caliphate is an obligation, and that the Muslims must appoint a leader who would implement the injunctions of the religion, and give the oppressed justice against the oppressors. It is forbidden for Muslims to have two leaders in the world whether in agreement or discord. [Al-Fiqh Alal-Mathahib Al- Arba’a (the fiqh of the four schools of thought), volume 5, page 416]
[b]Muhammad ibn Ali Al-Shawkani (d. 1250 AH)[/b]
It is known from Islam by necessity (bi-dharoorah - i.e.: like prayer and fasting) that Islam has forbidden division amongst Muslims and the segregation of their land. [Tafseer al-Quran al-Atheem, volume 2, page 215]
[b]Imam Yahya ibn Sharaf al- Nawawi (631–676 AH)[/b]
(The scholars) consented that it is an obligation upon the Muslims to select a Khaleefah [Sharhu Sahih Muslim page 205 vol 12]
He also said:
It is forbidden to give an oath to two Imams or more, even in different parts of the world and even if they are far apart ["Mughni Al-Muhtaj", volume 4, page 132]
He also stated:
If a baya’a were taken for two Khulafa’aa one after the other, the baya’a of the first one would be valid and it should be fulfilled and honoured whereas the baya’a of the second would be invalid, and it would be forbidden to honour it. This is the right opinion which the majority of scholars follow, and they agree that it would be forbidden to appoint two Khulafa’aa at one given time, no matter how great and extended the Islamic lands become. ["Sharhu Sahih Muslim" (explanation of Sahih Muslim) chapter 12 page 231]
[b]Imam Abu Abdullah al-Qurtubi (d. 671 AH)[/b]
Imam Qurtubi said in his tafseer of the verse,
إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِى الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً
"Indeed, man is made upon this earth a Caliph" [TMQ 2:30]
This Ayah is a source in the selection of an Imaam, and a Khaleefah, he is listened to and he is obeyed, for the word is united through him, and the Ahkam (laws) of the Khaleefah are implemented through him, and there is no difference regarding the obligation of that between the Ummah, nor between the Imams
[b]Imam al-Qurtubi also said:[/b] The Khilafah is the pillar upon which other pillars rest
[b]Hujjatul Islam Imam Abu Hamid Al-Ghazzali[/b]
Imam Al-Ghazzali (450-505 AH), when writing of the potential consequences of losing the Khilafah said:
The judges will be suspeneded, the Wilayaat (provinces) will be nullified, ... the decrees of those in authority will not be executed and all the people will be on the verge of Haraam. [al Iqtisaad fil Itiqaad page 240]
[b]Imam Taqi ad-Din Ahmad Ibn Taymiyyah (661-728 AH)[/b]
It is obligatory to know that the office in charge of commanding over the people (ie: the post of the Khaleefah) is one of the greatest obligations of the Deen. In fact, there is no establishment of the Deen except by it....this is the opinion of the salaf, such as al-Fadl ibn 'Iyaad, Ahmed ibn Hanbal and others. [Siyaasah Shariyyah - chapter: 'The obligation of adherence to the leadership']
[b]Qadi Abu al-Hasan Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn Habib al-Mawardi (362-448)[/b]
Imamate is prescribed to succeed prophethoood as a means of protecting the Deen and of managing the affairs of this world. There is a consensus of opinion (amongst the scholars - Ijmaa’ al-‘Ulamaa’) that the person who discharges the responsibilities of this position must take on the contract of Imamate of the Ummah. [Al-Ahkam us-Sultaniyyah, Chapter 1, The Contract of Imamate].
[b]Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (164-241 AH)[/b]
The Fitna (mischief and tribulations) occurs when there is no Imaam established over the affairs of the people.
[b]Abu Hafs Umar al-Nasafi (d. 701)[/b]
The Muslims simply must have an Imam (Khaleefah), who will execute the rules, establish the Hudud (penal system), defend the frontiers, equip the armies, collect Zakah, punish those who rebel (against the state) and those who spy and highwaymen, establish Jum'ah and the two 'Eids, settle the dispute among the servants (of Allah), accept the testimony of witnesses in matters of legal rights, give in marriage the young and the poor who have no family, and distribute the booty.
[b]Imam Al-Haythami (d. 807 AH)[/b]
It is known that the Sahabah (ra) consented that selecting the Imaam after the end of the era of Prophethood was an obligation (Wajib). Indeed they made it (more) important than the (other) obligations whilst they were busy with it over the burial of the Prophet. [Sawaa'iq ul-haraqah:17]
[b]Imam Sa'd al-Din Mas'ud bin Umar al-Taftazani (d. 791 AH), wrote:[/b]
There is consensus that appointing a Khaleefah is obligatory. The difference of opinion is on whether the appointment must be by Allah or by his servants, and whether the basis (for appointment) is textual evidence or rational proof. The adoption is that it is obligatory upon the servants by textual evidence because of the saying of the Messenger, "Whoever dies not having known the Imam of his time, dies the death of the days of ignorance." Also, the ummah agreed that this was the most important duty following the death of the Messenger, so important in fact that they considered it more important than the matter of his burial, and so also has it been after the death of each Imam.
Before the Prophet (pbuh) established the Islamic State, how many people knew how to do wudhu, pray, ect. and compare that to the number of people today. The brothers I know are very active Alhamdulillah, they organise many things such as circles, talks, video nights which are also non-khilafah related. I'm sure they do other work in the background which we're unaware of.
NO-ONE except Allah (swt) knows when the khilafah will be re-established. We shouldn't expect immediate results, be patient and Allah (swt) will give it to us when we're ready.
If they're not working for khilafah, what are they doing then?
I'm actively looking for answers which will remove the doubts I currently have, then I'll find out what I need to do.
How many times do I have to say... no.
No-one is saying to establish an Islamic State here in the UK. It's over in the Muslim lands we should be more concerned about.
Are you saying this after looking at the Qur'an and Sunnah or after looking at the state Muslims are in? Unfortunately some Muslims have no hope and feel helpless... this shouldn't be the case. I suggest you listen to the talks posted below.
You may not have come across a Sunni HT member but I have, infact all of them are Sunni's. They're not some secret organisation where their beliefs differ from ours. They're Muslims like us who just realise that re-establishing the khilafah is an obligation.
The reason why you don't see a Tableeghi HT is because they believe Muslims have gone away from their deen, so inorder to re-establish the khilafah, everyone has to be practising. Which aint gonna happen coz you will always get non-practising Muslims. There was even Munafiq's at the time of the Prophet (pbuh).
Which shows the importance of re-establishing a khilafah, and appointing an Amir.
Or ask yourself this question. Is it possible to work for khilafah alone or collectively?
Can you get me the exact hadith, and also which hadith it's from. I've heard it before and understand it to be in a different context than you do.
If you look at the definition of what a sect is you'll find that they are not a sect. If you didn't know, they're a political group.
I won't talk about this topic anymore but I suggest people to seek knowledge about it then come to your own conclusion. It's a shame I couldn't find the full talk for Shaykh Hamza Yusuf so if anyone finds it, let me know. The last talk is very long but beneficial.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI4-LsPimjk[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkVUQtK-FNk[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltcxJb29lqc[/url]
i tried staying away from this topic but it looks like Muslim Bro is being dragged in to the dragons den and i need to rescue him lol
iT LOOKS LIKE ht HAVE GOT A RECRUITING SERGEANT HERE lol
they are good at brainwashing
i was almost brainwashed- fortunately i had good scholars around me to guide me
Muslim Bro ask scholars from ur mosque/organisation/jamaah eg or any qualified scholar TODAY: ask shaykh riyad ul haq, Ahmad Ali, Hamza Yusuf, Dr Zakir Naik, Dr Tahir ul Qadri, Dr Abdul Hakim Murad, Shaykh Yaqubi or head of any group/jamaat/sect today.
NO ONE agrees with Ht's methodologies. Everyone agrees that in a Muslim country we must rule by shariah but HT misguide ppl on many aspects.
All your quotes above prove ONE thing: we must rule by Islam in a muslim country. Thats all. Nothing proves there is only 1 rule for the whole muslim world or u cant have nation states etc.......
I could understand it if HT focused on Muslim lands to implement shariah there...but in non muslims lands what does banging on about khilafah for the last 50 years acheive?
Ed, you say "Nothing proves there is only 1 rule for the whole muslim world or u cant have nation states etc....... "
But I don't see how you can exactly argue with:
I certainly don't expect to sign up for HT any time soon, lol. But I really dislike so many Muslims being against and labelling HT as a 'sect'. If you say that, you have bought into the right-wing media's image of them. It is standard divide-and-suppress tactics, and its working like a charm.
If someone disagrees with HT or their methods, then thats fine. But there will never be any semblance of unity in the Muslim community if everyone goes around labelling ach other as 'sects' or the 'dragons den' etc. You should try discussing in a civilised way and trying to rip their arguments to shreds, instead of saying 'Ohh...their evil, don't trust them' (I know thats nt what anyone said, but similar things were implied).
You also say 'I could understand it if HT focused on Muslim lands to implement shariah there...but in non muslims lands what does banging on about khilafah for the last 50 years acheive?'
They are banned in many Muslim countries because the secular/oppressive governments/dictatorships there are scared of them. HT don't call for a Caliphate in Britain - they want the British government to stop supporting corrupt regimes in Muslim-majority countries.
Don't just do something! Stand there.
I have spent lat 10 years of my life discussing , debating, researching HT at uni, forums, websites, HT members, scholasr etc....
my conclusion is this:
REASONS WHY I HATE H.T:
1. To establish Khilafah is Fard- Ain- Its not! Its Fardh Kifayah- especially in non muslim lands. Its a responsibility on the Ummah, especially the qualified ppl like ulema, politicians etc its like salat ul janazah, if some ppl perform it then the burden is raised for everyone.
2. If we die today then we die with death of jahiliyah. That is saying muslim Bro, if ur dad, mum, grandad, bro/sis die they will die as KAFIRS according to HT, cos that is what death of jahiliyah is!!! This is jahiliyah in itself. The hadith menas if THERE IS ALREADY A RULER, AND KHILAFAH (ie shariah law) EXISTS AND YOU DONT GIVE BAYAH TO THE KHALIFH, then u die death of jahiliyah. Today there is no Islamic state or khalif so we cant give bayah!!!!!
3. the misguidance of no nation states. this is ridiculous. so if ulema implement shariah in pakistan- HT wont recognise it. If taliban implements shariah in afghanistan? if muslims implement shariah in Palestine HT will say NO, ITS NATION STATE , NOT ISLAMIC STATE!!! its all misguidance....
the hadith of killing a second caliph is IF YOU HAVE AN ISLAMIC STATE AND A CHOSEN KHALIF AND THEN *ANOTHER KHALIF IS APPOINTED...KILL HIM, AS IT SONLY 1 LEADER FOR AN ISLAMIC STATE***
4. another big misguidance is when they say you cant obey the law of the land. of course u can as long as it doesnt contradict shariah. if u think u cant follow shariah in UK then it is wajid for u to do hijrah!
5. also: voting is haram! no crebile scholar hAS THIS VIEW APART FROM ht. iN A NON MUSLIM COUNTRY I SVITAL, CRUCIAL . its your voice. its your way of lobbying your mps/political leaders. HT also say taking part in political process in non muslim lands is haram- obviously they live in cloud cuckoo land
i can write a book on HT...but that would be a waste of sheer effort lol
See... That's much better because you've actually got specific arguments!
There's only 5 points not 10...but we get the idea.
Don't just do something! Stand there.
Maybe... but i'd buy it.
And im sure loads of people would buy it.
And then you could use the proceeds to fund the revival.
Back in BLACK
God bless Muslimbro. They really have brainwashed you haven't they? Not to worry, been there done that InshaaAllah we'll (theRevival) will bring you back to the [color=yellow][b]LIGHT![/b][/color] We know what you're going through!
InshaaAllah will reply to the posts when i get home (yes i'm in college! :shock: )
no where in those narrations does it say that there must be ONE state does it? all it says is that when a person gives bayah to a leader, he/she cannot give bayah again to another leader because it will cause fitnah! in history, there have been more than one islamic state even at the time of the Prophet (saw)!
No its not.
Literal meaning of khalifah is "one who replaces someone else who left or died". Islamic meaning is "political, military, and administrative leader of the Muslims".
Khalifah is a title, not a method of ruling.
Look at the Khulafaa Rashida - Hadhrat Abu Bakr Assiddeeq (ra) was chosen/elected by popular opinion. Hadhrat Umar (ra) was nominated. Hadhrat Uthmaan (ra) and Hadhrat Ali (ra) were selected by peers who part of a committee of 6 potentials.
(Can't remember about Hadhrat Imam Hassan (ra), so I will leave that off)
There was not one single process of choosing a ruler.
Look behind the big words to what they actually mean to get a truer picture.
Depending on how you define khilafah, it could be an empire, Islamic Republic, Imarah and much more.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
spot on Admin.
You know I said the brother would give me the evidence.
Tthe post 'Khilafah: An established obligation' is exactly that, when I said here's what I got, I didn't mean I got it myself, it was given to me. And as you said you wanted to see it, I posted what you asked for.
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