Surely they can't just call themselves a caliphate. Well they can, but it doesn't mean they are??

You wrote:

ISIS may not survive long or have any of the prerequisite qualities of a true Islamic state, but the current chaos in the middleeast may open opportunities where down the line something decent could be established.

You think something decent good come from such an extreme group?

What does sykespicot mean?

Salam

I wonder what HT have said regarding it.
Have they given their allegiance to Caliph Abraham.

The top Sunni and Shia scholars condemned the Caliphate. Clerics like Sheikh Saqib al Shami, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, and Sheikh Sayyed Mohammed al Musawi, have all dismissed the Caliphate as a Haram state. They said its not Islamic at all. Its an illegal establishment.

ISIS Caliphate also want to kill all Shias and Jews, including babies. This is not what God's Book commands. It respects life of Jews and all humans. Caliphate is evil. Therefore, it needs to be dismantled.

ISIS was a Royal Saudi hole dug for President Assad. Now they themselves will fall in it. ISIS are coming to Mecca.

Omrow

pros and cons

Antagonist View of ISIS:

1. They have zero ulama supporting them. No students of knowledge either, except known takfiris and maybe one or two guys.

This is indeed a valid criticism and in fact this is one of the attributes of the khawaarij of every era, most notable being the khawaarij during the time of the companions. However, the lack of ulema and students of knowledge cannot be the basis for the charge of kharijism itself, in so much as it may merely lead to kharijism.

2. They've turned their backs on every last one of their mentors - who aren't even ulama, and are criticized themselves, but this just shows how far gone ISIS is. The agreed upon heads of their 'SJ' world are not extreme enough for them!

This has two points.
A. turning back on mentors - This is hardly a basis for utilizing as a premise to the implication of kharijism. Im merely stating this for the record and not to identify people who have this conclusion. Turning your back on mentors does have ramifications and has a negative undertone. However, the realm of jihad itself, is quite different from the realm of academics, and thus turning your backs on mentors does not quite have the same ramifications as it would with academics. I say this on the basis that the shifting realities of tactical is much more chaotic than it would be in any other field.

B. "extreme" here is highly subjective, especially in the context of warfare. I understand that the normative view is that ISIS represents the ultra extreme (I refuse to use the term 'radical', because that actually has a positive meaning if understood in its linguistic form as well as taking into account the current geopolitical secular world order) view from the rest of the jihadi groups. There is one slight thorn in my eye with regards to this though. That is that the main area of the charge of extremism largely rests within the confines of Military tactics. Two other areas where I would concur with the charge of extremism (ghuloo) would be Najdi style takfir and one related to tactical jihad operations, that being to open the realm of jihad to all lands, including where Muslims are the minority in a predominately kuffaric state, for which Abu Qataadah and Abu Baseer rightfully addressed this as one of the extreme problems with the ISIS outlook, headed by its chief ideologue, Shanqiti.

3. They made official takfir of the Islamic Front, the largest Islamic umbrella group on the ground. Also they've made takfir of the FSA, and a part of AQ in Sham (aka JN). Crazy takfir. 80-90% of the mujahideen in Syria are murtaddeen to them.

This would definitely be a valid criticism that I would agree to an extent. I do find this aspect of ISIS as a major blunder in their thought process. I do have my own criticisms of FSA considering their more lenient support for the secularist elements of the Syrian society.

4. No other group on the ground in Syria supports them.

This maybe true, but I personally find little value to use this as a basis of criticism which would warrant the heresy of kharijism over.

5. Plenty of people of knowledge have spoken against them. Including two who flat-out called them khawarij (Abu Baseer, Abu Qatada).

This is most interesting. I am aware of Abu Baseer's criticisms of ISIS. I may actually agree with Abu Baseer more over ISIS and their strategy. This would be one valid measure of the accusation of kharijism. The readers can get a basic glimpse in the English language that does a pretty good job at executing an analysis of the dispute between the jihadi ideologue Abu Baseer at-Tartoosee versus Abul-Mundhir ash-Shanqiti (ISIS ideologue) here http://www.jihadica.com/jihadism%E2%...ting-heats-up/

Further readings can be accessed through by the links provided throughout the article, one notable one is this one
http://www.jihadica.com/al-qaida-adv...-spring-yemen/

6. They've refused to do tahaakum to the Shari'a multiple times, and they're the cause of all this bloodshed. Everyone else tried to solve it peacefully but they refused over and over.

This is one of the most problematic aspects to this whole polemic, or more accurately put, fitnah. That is the issue of tahakkum. It is nearly accurate to say that there is not one group that will ever emerge until the day of judgment where the people of authority will not be charged with tahakkum bi ghayrillah. The evidence to this is every person in existence who has ever ruled in Islam, including the Messenger of Allah alayhi salatu salam, have been charged with some form of "al-Hukmu bi ghayri ma anzalallah". There is never going to be a "valid" ruler in the eyes of the people due to tawil and the implications it has on the jurisprudential aspect of ruling authorities. So the charge of "refusing to do tahakum to the shariah" is just as loose as saying anyone else refused to do tahakum to the shariah, when all of it is based on tawil to begin with.

As for the bloodshed. This is the inevitable result of conflict, all conflicts.

However, from a valid standpoint with regards to ISIS's peculiar diversions in avoiding Islamic arbitration in order to bring about justice and cohesion, one can defer to this post here
The Islamic State of Iraq and Sham

as this seems to be the basis for this charge of ISIS's lack of effort at reconciliatory efforts towards the entire movement.

7. They are not a state

Mainly, this is treated by everyone, including the kuffar in the media, as even less reputable than a rogue state. For even Iran and North Korea are known as "rogue states" but on whose authority? On the authority of the United Nations. Well, in my view, the United Nations have no authority in my eye. It is an illegal entity who has extracted power illegally, for illegal motives. However with ISIS, it is even viewed as less than that, almost towards the degree of barbarity.

Logically speaking, whoever has occupied a territory by force, and their power cannot be matched by an opposing force (meaning the opposing force cannot remove them), then the simple hardcore fact of reality remains that such a force is the power, the ruler of that territory undisputed. Their legitimacy can be questioned, but the fact remains that until they are removed from power, then they are in power.

I will remark later on the actual state apparatus of ISIS inshallah

8. Criminal Activities

This is also a major factor of this whole ordeal we have here. An example of the documentation of criminal activity is this link here. Syrian girls forced to marry ISIS fighters - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Mainly, from the issue of criminal activity, I seek to decipher three main aspects to this sub-issue
a. what is exaggeration and propaganda (to what extent and for what angle)
b. what is true
c. what were those issues that were omitted from the context

The reason for the breakdown of this issue in this fashion is quite simple. As any researcher/journalist/academic knows, there is no such thing as an "unbiased" take. There is always an objective and agenda at work in the realm of journalism that is connected with mainstream media, even if they are not mainstream. In short, everyone speaks or writes from a backdrop.

I dont think that I need to link every single report published in the media on the criminal activities of ISIS. That can be done by individual contributions you provide in tandem with your analysis and stance to such reports and the overall judgment on ISIS as an entity.

The Protagonists View:

Instead of using the mass transmission of views that can be found on twitter and for which I have received a boatload of replies on the topic, I will utilize a kaafir source, which correlates with these very views that have dominated the social sphere. Of course this kaafir source does format what has literally been going on into their version of right and wrong. This is the source
The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria Has a Consumer Protection Office - Aaron Zelin - The Atlantic

No sooner had it seized the Iraqi city of Mosul and surrounding villages, than the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) began outlining how it would govern its dawla (state). On Thursday, the Sunni militant group released a wathiqat al-madina (charter of the city) to Moslawis. Many residents of the largely Sunni city may have initially welcomed the “liberation” from Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki’s Shiite-dominated regime, which they had major grievances with, but they might have sobered up after reading the jihadists’ interpretation of sharia law. Those who steal will have their hands chopped off. Islam’s five daily prayers must be performed on time. Drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes are forbidden. Carrying weapons and non-ISIS flags is illegal. All shrines and graves will be destroyed, since they are considered polytheistic. Women must dress modestly (a euphemism for the full-body niqab).

I dont know any shara'i oriented individuals who would oppose this. Despite the flag issue which would only be understandable since it would be a challenge to their power, and like ANY ruling system, it does not allow for opposition to that power especially if that power is based on the Book and the Sunnah.

The rules highlight the harsh realities of life in ISIS territory. But what’s often overlooked is that the group also has a soft-power governing strategy that includes social services, religious lectures, and da’wa (proselytizing) to local populations, including parts of the northwestern Iraqi province of Anbar, which it seized this past winter. In its charter for Mosul, ISIS notes that Sunnis who worked in the Maliki government’s institutions and security apparatus can atone for their actions and ward off imprisonment or execution. ISIS has already allowed sahwa members (participants in Sunni “Awakening” councils that the U.S. stood up during its troop “surge” against al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), ISIS’s forerunner, a decade ago) to repent in Babil and Diyala provinces.

Allahu Akbar, there are points of this nature that I have outlined couple years ago here
The Current Geo-Political Paradigm, Uni-Polarism Vs Multi-Polarism, The Muslim Condition, and A More Viable Solution Based on the Prophetic Guidance to Social Reform | al-Mustaqeem Publications

mainly, this portion from the above link
Question 2:

"If Muslims do somehow make their own state and refuse funds from the west, they will probably be pressurized or fought until they are forced to get loans with interest.

So what really is the solution for them? They can’t get loans, so they are poor, which means no industry. They are also fought or boycotted, which again means no industry/money. What can they then do to become self sufficient, and expand?"

Everything that I am about to say is simply theoretical at best precisely because we haven’t really covered, much less mastered the initial problem and ways to adopt the solution as provided in the reply to the first question. But in the event this does take place, then the way I would see us getting out of this predicament you described would be somewhat of the following

1. The one who will be in charge must not waiver, or even care about international pressure to accept western funding. It must not even phase the one in charge. They must not bow down to international pressure.

2. The ummah or the “state” in this case does NOT need funding from any place IF they understand that the current western money system is a fiat system that is essentially created by nothing and it is based on debt. Since monies is a state system, then the Muslim state MUST vest the power to create money in government and to bring the power of enforcement to keep it “free money” and not that any institution has the power to regulate its value. The reason why the western world is in the rut that it is in with the rule of their fascist corporataucracy and plutocratic rule is because they have stripped the power to create money from government and assigned this power to private banksters. This MUST NOT be the model of the Muslim state, rather the power to create money has to be given ONLY to the state. It cannot be given to bankers. Once this is realized, then the state will have its own money with which to fund their operations, investments, and every day muamalaat of the people.

In light of this, the enemies of Islam will try to depreciate the value of our money with the devils deception of “speculators”. So the Muslim state must essentially nullify the power of speculators and must not allow for speculators to some in and do what they do with our money because this is how and why the current EU crisis came about. So to hell with the speculators. I can outline more on the topic, but Im actually compiling a work in response to someone who claimed that the salafis have not offered anything fruitful on the subject, so in light of that claim, I have decided to take up the challenge. It is long and I will not highlight these here so you will just have to wait till I come out with it inshallah.

In terms of self sufficiency and expansion, the way this takes place in today’s world is through investment in infrastructure primarily at home, and likewise abroad. If we invest in infrastructure in other countries, this is a fadhl for both them as well as the Muslims. We also expand the social structure of the society. I don’t necessarily believe in state controlled education, but we invest in all types of social programs and allowing for the people to form their own societal communities. When the state controls education, then that is when it transforms from education to indoctrination.

Now, what is the underlying basis of all of this. The basis for all of this is that the underlying asl that is emphasized in the Qur’an is that the “wealth” is CIRCULATED. There is no baraka at all when the wealth is simply tied up in the hands who have it. The only way a nation thrives economically is to keep the money rolling, exchanging. This essentially destroys “oligarchy” and oligarchical rule.

If we want to see a practical example, just look at the policies of the current European countries versus Russia. The decrepit slime-balls that make up the ruling establishment of the eurozone ALL promote “austerity”. Outside of the fact that the manhaj of austerity is based on the fact that the banks got their countries into debt through their plunder, and now the people have to pay the price by paying the banks back, and they do this through austerity. Outside of this, what austerity really means if we were to depict it is basically slow choking a human. If you were to grab a human and choke them slowly, eventually after a while the human becomes a corpse. That is exactly what austerity is. Now, Lets look at Putin’s Russia. Unlike the vermin that control the Triangle of Evil, that is the Washington establishment, Wall Street, and the City of London and the vermin who are loyal to the city of London and Paris and Brussels, Putin in the face of slight debt, he expands government spending, mostly in infrastructure projects ranging from dams, highways, oil development and enrichment, and he even began to open up the space program. All of this produces the following

1. jobs

2. wealth

3. technologies

4. advancement

5. good relations

6. And finally, when all of these things take place in the society and it benefits other societies, and the people are happy or at least satisfied with their government, the final output of all of this, is peace. Peace! When this is accomplished, who knows what nations would enter the fold of Islam without even the picking up of one sword. Of course I’m not discouraging Jihad since I wish I could end my life in such a fate, but Im speaking hypothetically here. When the entire nation of Indonesia entered Islam, on what basis they became Muslim. It was of course through our dawah, but it was the result of our actions, through mutual and beneficial trade for both entities. We didn’t cheat them.
So what we have here with the ISIS case as brought to us by the Atlantic news, is a mini or prototype version of what I have just described above. Outside of religious lectures and d'awah, they are providing social services.

The best way to get a sense of ISIS’s blueprint for state-building is to look at how it has ruled al-Raqqa governorate and other territory in neighboring Syria. The group’s first move is often to set up billboards around town that emphasize the importance of jihad, sharia, women’s purity, and other pietistic themes. It reaches out to local notables and tribal leaders as well to blunt the kind of backlash that greeted AQI and its harsh interpretation of sharia during the sahwa movement last decade.

The group also has a surprisingly sophisticated bureaucracy, which typically includes an Islamic court system and a roving police force. In the Syrian town of Manbij, for example, ISIS officials cut off the hands of four robbers. In Raqqa, they forced shops to close for selling poor products in the suq (market) as well as regular supermarkets and kebab stands—a move that was likely the work of its Consumer Protection Authority office. ISIS has also whipped individuals for insulting their neighbors, confiscated and destroyed counterfeit medicine, and on multiple occasions summarily executed and crucified individuals for apostasy. Members have burned cartons of cigarettes and destroyed shrines and graves, including the famous Uways al-Qarani shrine in Raqqa.

Considering the kuffaric nuance of the narrative, if we were to understand the language from our perspective, what exactly here is problematic? Think about it.

To be quite honest, this method only differs from the previous decade of jihad warfare and its groups in so much that in this new phase, al-Albaani's "tasfiyyah and tarbiyya" is being applied on a practical political level inspite of the fact that we all know al-Albaani was intending the academic realm of his concept. In the previous conflicts of other groups the end game was merely the removal of a regime or ruler. Nothing was set up to replace the system they overthrew with an entirely new system. Either it ran to its own destruction, or it followed in almost the same exact policies that the removed rulers have implemented. Well, except for Taaliban. Taaliban had similar methods of social reform and services. Anyways, it does not end there.

Beyond these judicial measures, ISIS also invests in public works. In April, for instance, it completed a new suq in al-Raqqa for locals to exchange goods. Additionally, the group runs an electricity office that monitors electricity-use levels, installs new power lines, and hosts workshops on how to repair old ones. The militants fix potholes, bus people between the territories they control, rehabilitate blighted medians to make roads more aesthetically pleasing, and operate a post office and zakat (almsgiving) office (which the group claims has helped farmers with their harvests). Most importantly for Syrians and Iraqis downriver, ISIS has continued operating the Tishrin dam (renaming it al-Faruq) on the Euphrates River. Through all of these offices and departments, ISIS is able to offer a semblance of stability in unstable and marginalized areas, even if many locals do not like its ideological program.

Wallahi billaahi, it is these things by which the services to the people will literally wave over the criticisms people have of it like a Tsunami obliterates everything along the coast. I need not say more on this, the fawaa'id of this is beyond obvious.

That’s not to say this ideological project isn’t an integral part of ISIS’s social services. Its media outlet al-I’tisam sets up stalls to distribute DVDs of the videos it posts online. In a number of ISIS-held locales, a da’wa truck drives around broadcasting information about the group's belief system. Moreover, ISIS has established a number of religious schools for children, including ones for girls where they can memorize the Koran and receive certificates if successful, while also holding “fun days” for kids replete with ice cream and inflatable slides. For their older counterparts, ISIS has established training sessions for new imams and preachers. Schedules for prayers and Koran lessons are posted at mosques. In a more worrisome development, ISIS runs training camps for “cub scouts” and houses these recruits in the group’s facilities.

May I remind readers that this is a kaafir source from what they have verified themselves. Just reading the content by itself needs no further comment.

The militants have also developed health and welfare programs. ISIS helps run bread factories and provides fruits and vegetables to many families, passing the goods out personally. In Raqqa, ISIS has established a food kitchen to feed the needy and an Office for Orphans to help pair them with families. The Taliban may be paranoid and skeptical about vaccination campaigns, but ISIS conducts polio-vaccination campaigns to try and arrest the disease’s spread.

While the governance and social services that ISIS provides shouldn’t overshadow the repression and deadly violence it carries out, they do illustrate that the group runs a sophisticated and well-organized operation. The $425 million (almost half a billion!) that ISIS seized from Mosul’s central bank this week won’t only aid the militants on the region's battlefields. It will also help underwrite the group’s campaign to win hearts and minds. And that will make it even more difficult to dislodge the nascent proto-state from Syria and Iraq.

I personally loop the comment of "shouldn't overshadow the repression and deadly violence it carries out" with the ending kuffaric secular intent that is expressed at the end stated in bold. I personally do have a problem with ISIS's use of vaccinations as we have insurmountable data that the entire pharmaceutical vaccination industry, its main function is the destruction of the immune system. That is because the leaders of the industry belong to the military arm of western imperial states and who have a common theme shared by them all, that being population management and reduction. Its basically Eugenics, but the eugenics movement reformatted their image after WWII so it takes on themes such as "Sustainable Development" or slogans such as "Sustainable Future". One can read/research on their own with regards to the Optimum Population Trust, and other UN and foundation backed NGOs involved in this, and their links to other areas of industry to help implement these policies, one of them being the pharmaceutical industry. However that is neither here nor there as it is not the object of focus in this thread.

 

Yes that is true

"If ISIS drove south towards Saudi Arabia, I wouldnt be surprised if large and powerful groups of Saudis supported it against the Saud kingdom - currently the saudi citizens are silenced through cash infusions, but that can't silence them forever.

ISIS may not survive long or have any of the prerequisite qualities of a true Islamic state, but the current chaos in the middleeast may open opportunities where down the line something decent could be established."

The two comments are interesting, if ISIS moved south to Saudi, this could result in a overt civil war between the house of Saud and its people. As you say, people have been silenced  by cash infusions. But what the result of an overt civil war in Saudi would be? I don't know? Were will the House of Saud friends stand?  Government actions in the democratic west are not always what the people want.

As for a replacement of ISIS, if you read western history in the 20th century after the senseless slaughter of millions of common people, resulted in the common people saying enough. But it only needs a small % of people to steer a large population and that is the danger of ISIS and other extreme organisations. So hopefuly, the wanton killing of people regardless of Islamic creed, or be they Christians who have lived in that part of the world before Islam will stop soon.

I just hope that people will be disgusted and come to their senses and realise that hurting common people like yourselves is stupid. Also that out of all this chaos some lasting good will come. A little anology that i was shown. A man wrote on a £10 note, "I am a Christian," then he asked another man to write, " I am a Muslim". Then he crumpled the £10 note, jumped on it, then uncrumpled it. Then he wrote on the £10 note. "But i am still a £10 note."

We are all human beings, with feelings, families and needs, wether we are Muslim, Christian or Atheists.