Can you please tell me what was said about cousin marriages?

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

Can you please tell me what was said about cousin marriages?

they said cousin marriages should be discouraged.
they quoted a hadith where the prophet discouraged it because it could produce weak/unhealthy kids.
they quoted hazrat umar who said the same
they quoted imama ghazalli who said same
and they quoted imam shafi who said the same

so in a nutshell the shaykh said its a mirpur problem, an asian problem and its done mostly for visa/political/cultural reasons not because the two ppl want to get married.

their answer above was very strong

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

Can you please tell me what was said about cousin marriages?

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

they said cousin marriages should be discouraged.
they quoted a hadith where the prophet discouraged it because it could produce weak/unhealthy kids.
they quoted hazrat umar who said the same
they quoted imama ghazalli who said same
and they quoted imam shafi who said the same

so in a nutshell the shaykh said its a mirpuri problem, an asian problem and its done mostly for visa/political/cultural reasons not because the two ppl want to get married.

their answer above was very strong

Not what you were expecting was it POS

It's just exactly what I've been saying all this time, now a well known scholar is on my side so you can't beat me up for it anymore

We need more sensible people like him to lift the Ummah out of ignorance

lollywood wrote:

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

so in a nutshell the shaykh said its a mirpuri problem, an asian problem and its done mostly for visa/political/cultural reasons not because the two ppl want to get married.

their answer above was very strong

Not what you were expecting was it POS

It's just exactly what I've been saying all this time, now a well known scholar is on my side so you can't beat me up for it anymore

We need more sensible people like him to lift the Ummah out of ignorance

What? No one has said otherwise. :S Who's been telling you it's a religious thing?!

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

Can you please tell me what was said about cousin marriages?

they said cousin marriages should be discouraged.
they quoted a hadith where the prophet discouraged it because it could produce weak/unhealthy kids.
they quoted hazrat umar who said the same
they quoted imama ghazalli who said same
and they quoted imam shafi who said the same

so in a nutshell the shaykh said its a mirpur problem, an asian problem and its done mostly for visa/political/cultural reasons not because the two ppl want to get married.

their answer above was very strong

So just generally discouraging but not saying one-off's are bad?

Oh and I know it's really weird, but some people do want to marry their cousins!

If anyone comes across the reference for this hadith please let me know

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

What? No one has said otherwise

lollywood wrote:

Cousin marriage is sick and it should be banned in the whole world

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

2 February, 2011 - 21:26
Cousin marriages are sick? Your comments are sick! How can you talk about something which is halal and practices by the Prophet and his family like that?!

lollywood wrote:

It's just exactly what I've been saying all this time, now a well known scholar is on my side so you can't beat me up for it anymore

Not really, that was not your position.

You were more on the total outright prohibition side of the argument, as also implied by your previous username.

Discouraging/not promoting is something entirely different as it does not add a new prohibition to religion where none existed before.

lollywood wrote:

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

What? No one has said otherwise

lollywood wrote:

Cousin marriage is sick and it should be banned in the whole world

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

2 February, 2011 - 21:26
Cousin marriages are sick? Your comments are sick! How can you talk about something which is halal and practices by the Prophet and his family like that?!

Notice how your words are different from what you are suggesting they were.

You called it sick and wanted an outright ban. Not the same as what was said here, where its encouragement was discouraged as opposed to an outright ban.

You wrote:

Notice how your words are different from what you are suggesting they were.

You called it sick and wanted an outright ban. Not the same as what was said here, where its encouragement was discouraged as opposed to an outright ban.

So do you agree that most Pakistani parents encourage there children in this kind of marriage for there own benefits - those include keeping land money and wealth the family and getting a visa to England

Inshallah a total banned will be next

lollywood wrote:

You wrote:

Notice how your words are different from what you are suggesting they were.

You called it sick and wanted an outright ban. Not the same as what was said here, where its encouragement was discouraged as opposed to an outright ban.

So do you agree that most Pakistani parents encourage there children in this kind of marriage for there own benefits - those include keeping land money and wealth the family and getting a visa to England

Inshallah a total banned will be next

Tbh I dont agree with that explanation really. I mean you have brothers fighting each other for land so why would they care if their nieces come into their family or not?

Yes, it's just a cultural thing now

No, I don't agree with what you have said there.

For one, the ones in the UK are unlikely to be holding large amounts of lands.

Inshallah a total banned will be next

You can't make your own rules.

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

Tbh I dont agree with that explanation really. I mean you have brothers fighting each other for land so why would they care if their nieces come into their family or not?

That shows you don't know any Mirpuri people

The thing is if the brothers are fighting over land the solution is marry our children to each other so at least the land does not go out of the family and we can fight for it another day but if it goes out of the family we won't be able to do anything

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

Yes, it's just a cultural thing now

But if religion did not allow it then it would've never been apart of our cultural as religion also has an influence on marriage

You wrote:

For one, the ones in the UK are unlikely to be holding large amounts of lands

You don't understand, the land is not in the UK its in Pakistan
if there is more then one bro the father then splits the land between the bros and if 1 bros children marry another's that = more land joint up and in the family

Inshallah a total banned will be next

You wrote:

You can't make your own rules.

The government can and Inshallah will banned it

lollywood wrote:

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

Tbh I dont agree with that explanation really. I mean you have brothers fighting each other for land so why would they care if their nieces come into their family or not?

That shows you don't know any Mirpuri people

The thing is if the brothers are fighting over land the solution is marry our children to each other so at least the land does not go out of the family and we can fight for it another day but if it goes out of the family we won't be able to do anything

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

Yes, it's just a cultural thing now

But if religion did not allow it then it would've never been apart of our cultural as religion also has an influence on marriage

There's no point going on about this, we're just repeating the conversation that has already taken place

A detailed answer on cousin marriage is in a previous revival issue:
http://www.therevival.co.uk/ruling-first-cousin-marriages-balanced-persp...

in a nutshell islamically its allowed. the prophet (pbuh) married his cousin, Hazrat Ali married his cousin too. so marrying your cousin is allowed. what is discouraged is where you marry again and again in the same blood line eg from one generation to another as this can cause health issues. This is what the prophet(pbuh) is discouraging, what hazrat umar is saying, what imam Ghazali is saying and Imam shafi amongst others.

its quite straight forward...cant understand why teh confusion amongst the youth,

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

...what imam Ghazali is saying...

Not really.

His wording seems clear that being not closely related is in his eyes a virtue to look for in a marriage partner. That is more than simply being against generational cycles of cousin marriage.

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

A detailed answer on cousin marriage is in a previous revival issue:
http://www.therevival.co.uk/ruling-first-cousin-marriages-balanced-persp...

in a nutshell islamically its allowed. the prophet (pbuh) married his cousin, Hazrat Ali married his cousin too. so marrying your cousin is allowed. what is discouraged is where you marry again and again in the same blood line eg from one generation to another as this can cause health issues. This is what the prophet(pbuh) is discouraging, what hazrat umar is saying, what imam Ghazali is saying and Imam shafi amongst others.

its quite straight forward...cant understand why teh confusion amongst the youth,

If that was in reply to me, im not confused. Just looking for a proper refernce to the *actual* Hadith. But as admin said, I read Imam Ghazali's quote and he seemed pretty against the idea so I was just wondering exactly what the shaykh said-whether it applied to one-off marriages or not

You wrote:

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

...what imam Ghazali is saying...

Not really.

His wording seems clear that being not closely related is in his eyes a virtue to look for in a marriage partner. That is more than simply being against generational cycles of cousin marriage.

to quote the article relating to imam ghazali's view:

Endogamy (Repeated cross-generational consanguineous relationships) is a cultural practice not specifically encouraged by the shari`a, and although it has been widely practiced by Muslim societies, major figures such as Imam Ghazali (citing Sayyidina Umar, no less) have cautioned against excessiveness in this - precisely because it ‘weakens the offspring.’ [Ghazali: Ihya XII]

That is saying that it is Imam Ghazali's view.

What Imam Ghazali actually says in his book on marriage (along with other stuff you will find questionable) in the section "[QUALITIES CONDUCIVE TO A HAPPY CONJUGAL LIFE]" is:

There are eight qualities which render a conjugal life happy and which must be sought in the woman in order to assure the perpetuity of the marriage: piety, good character, beauty, a small dowry, ability to bear children, virginity, [good] lineage, and she should not be a close relative.

...

[Not a Close Relative]

The eighth quality is that she should not be a close relative, as that would lessen desire. The Prophet* said, “Don't marry close relatives for then the child is born scrawny”;59 that is to say, weak; such is the weakening effect it [marrying close rela­tives] has on desire. For desire is excited by the deep emotions which result from sight and touch; emotions are strengthened by whatever is unfamiliar and new. On the other hand, what is familiar and seen continuously renders the faculties incapable of fully appreciating it [desire], being affected by it, or becoming aroused through it. These are the qualities desired in women.

and that is discouraging of more than mere endogamy.

Such is the weak effect on desire? Children are born with defects cuz of the lack of desire) is that what it's saying)

So of you marry a cousin you rarely-never see, it would be different??

:S

no, two different reasons.

1. It can have effect on desire
2. Children can be defective.

There is no needed correlation between the two.

You wrote:

That is saying that it is Imam Ghazali's view.

What Imam Ghazali actually says in his book on marriage (along with other stuff you will find questionable) in the section "[QUALITIES CONDUCIVE TO A HAPPY CONJUGAL LIFE]" is:

There are eight qualities which render a conjugal life happy and which must be sought in the woman in order to assure the perpetuity of the marriage: piety, good character, beauty, a small dowry, ability to bear children, virginity, [good] lineage, and she should not be a close relative.

...

[Not a Close Relative]

The eighth quality is that she should not be a close relative, as that would lessen desire. The Prophet* said, “Don't marry close relatives for then the child is born scrawny”;59 that is to say, weak; such is the weakening effect it [marrying close rela­tives] has on desire. For desire is excited by the deep emotions which result from sight and touch; emotions are strengthened by whatever is unfamiliar and new. On the other hand, what is familiar and seen continuously renders the faculties incapable of fully appreciating it [desire], being affected by it, or becoming aroused through it. These are the qualities desired in women.

and that is discouraging of more than mere endogamy.

if imam ghazali is saying you shouldnt marry your cousin cos you can lose desire etc etc i dont buy it. The prophet (pbuh) married his cousin, hazrat Ali did- so marrying cousins should not be under question its endogamy that should be debated as that is what the prophet(pbuh) is hinting when he said it can make your kids/weak or disabled etc.
So imam ghazalis argument is weak- but who am I to argue against Hujaat ul Islam...but it doesnt make sense to me.

You wrote:

no, two different reasons.

1. It can have effect on desire
2. Children can be defective.

There is no needed correlation between the two.

can you not be attracted to your cousin? yes you can. does marrying your cousin weaken your sexual desire towards your wife- no... unless you were forced to marry her and werent attracted to her in the first place. lol

@ed Would you 'encourage' your kids to marry their cousins?
Or would u stay neutral & just accept if it 'happened by itself'?
Or discourage it?
Do u mind lettin me know ur reasons?
jzkAllah

You wrote:

no, two different reasons.

1. It can have effect on desire
2. Children can be defective.

There is no needed correlation between the two.

Ok, cuz it sounded like they were linked...which would make no sense at all.

Although I also sort of agree with Ed's point on attraction and not necessarily being put off - people are attracted to (well they marry them so they must...later on, if not straight away) those who they've literally grown up with and it does seem to work out for some!

Ya'qub wrote:

@ed Would you 'encourage' your kids to marry their cousins?
Or would u stay neutral & just accept if it 'happened by itself'?
Or discourage it?
Do u mind lettin me know ur reasons?
jzkAllah

if my kids WANTED to marry a cosuin, i wouldn't object. with our families we have a history of cousin marriages, so that would be the MAIN REASON why i wouldn't prefer my sons to marry a first cousin- due to health reasons eg high risk of disbaled kids

TheRevivalEditor wrote:

can you not be attracted to your cousin? yes you can. does marrying your cousin weaken your sexual desire towards your wife- no... unless you were forced to marry her and werent attracted to her in the first place. lol

NO, you can't be attracted to your cousin sister

Cousin brother or sister (plural cousin brothers, cousin sisters )
1.(India, Pakistan)
A male or female first cousin.

Ya Allah help us - how can we marry someone who we call brother and sister?

Because the people we can and cannot marry are defined by the qur'an and you.

(you will also note that often enough, people will even refer to total strangers as "brother" and "sister". They wont actually be brothers and sisters.)

You wrote:

(you will also note that often enough, people will even refer to total strangers as "brother" and "sister". They wont actually be brothers and sisters.)

The difference there is that you don't share your direct ancestors with strangers like you do with your cousin brothers and sisters

We are all the children of Adam (as).

We are all related, and this can be proven via genetics too (even if they may not hold an opinion on us being the children of Prophet Adam (as)).

Are terms "cousin brother" and "cousin sister" even used among native english speakers? It feels almost like a "translation", where the normal referring to them would simply be as "cousin".

EDIT Wikipedia suggests that the phrase is a Indian/Pakistani invention.