see below

"Med" wrote:

"Amber" wrote:

[
So med, what do u classify your ustadji as? Ahlul Bidah or not? If he is not Ahlul Bidah then it means he rides horses (or mules), lives in a mud houses etc etc. Cause if he rides cars, planes, lives in normal brick buildings then I guess he is Ahlul Bidah,then? Or in your tiny little mind he is not classified as Ahlul Bidah, or is it one rule for everyone else and a different one for your beloved ustadji?

Again who is he? I might even know him? Does he live down south? In B'ham or some dingy little town?

I advise you learn what Bid'ah is before commenting. Your post illustrates a great deal.

If you read my previous posts clearly I have asked you the same question, my post illustrate a great deal, huh? That the pot calling the kettle black.

P.S Why are you soooo ashamed :oops: of naming your molvi?

"Admin" wrote:

"Constantine" wrote:

"Med" wrote:

Ahlul Bid'ah means People of Innovation.

Thanks

Itys not as simple as that. It means someone who has introduced a new concept into religion.

A concept that alters the faith. changes values etc.

Dave, it goes deeper than that, there is good innovation which is for the betterment of religion and then there is bad innovation which is not for the betterment of religion.

"Med" wrote:

I hve nothing further to add.

If you claim to knw so much abt different types of bid'aat then why did u refer to aeroplanes and brick houses as being acts of bid'ah?

Amber, u can comment on this all u like, I have answered alhamdulillah.

[b]I know there are different bidah but it is clear that you don't. [/b]

"Amber" wrote:

P.S Why are you soooo ashamed :oops: of naming your molvi?

I do not blame him there.

You can imagine how his teacher would be treated. It would similar to how he is treated... He would not like that... even if he brings some of it on himself.

"Med" wrote:

apart from the fact that they are Ahlul Bid'ah

the word 'fact' is a very strong word to use and you must have proof to back that up, so why are you beating around the bush??? If you so strongly believe that the aforementioned scholars are ahul bidah then you must have vast amount of evidence in order to back up your statment?

So what is the basis of this 'fact'?

"Admin" wrote:

"Amber" wrote:

P.S Why are you soooo ashamed :oops: of naming your molvi?

I do not blame him there.

You can imagine how his teacher would be treated. It would similar to how he is treated... He would not like that... even if he brings some of it on himself.

exactly my point, they are people here in this forum, who follow the mentioned scholars, so if he doesn't want accusations flying around his teacher then he should respect other's as well. It can't be one rule for him and another rule for everyone else.

"Amber" wrote:

"Admin" wrote:

"Constantine" wrote:

"Med" wrote:

Ahlul Bid'ah means People of Innovation.

Thanks

Itys not as simple as that. It means someone who has introduced a new concept into religion.

A concept that alters the faith. changes values etc.

Dave, it goes deeper than that, there is good innovation which is for the betterment of religion and then there is bad innovation which is not for the betterment of religion.

Well... if it's something good then it must be in line with God's will - because the difference between people of faith and the countless masses without is that our standard for good is God - they simply sail around in an ocean with no starting port and no map.

So if a thing is good - and therefor in line with God's will - and it alters religion in some "good" way it can be one of only two things, a revelation (something that did not exist before) or a discovery (something that did exist but what unknown). You muslims believe there shall be no more revelations after Muhammad's ergo it can only be a discovery.

And discovery doesn't mean adding new things - that is a revelation - a discovery is simply a deeper or better/more precise understanding of the previous revelation(s).

So is there really such a thing as "good biddah" or is that really just a discovery?

"Amber" wrote:

Dave, it goes deeper than that, [b]there is good innovation which is for the betterment of religion [/b]and then there is bad innovation which is not for the betterment of religion.

WHO are these puny creations who think they can do innovated practices for the betterment of the divine shariah which was sent by ALLAH Most High to His Servant, Nabi Muhammad salallahu alayhi wa sallam.

For those who dont know, I refer them to the ayah Al Yawma Akmaltulaakum . . . till the end, in Surah Baqarah.

I believe that this shariah was revealed and perfected during the Hajjatul Wad'a, I dont believe contemptible humans today or in any age can innovate a practice in this religion for its betterment.

And as for the questioning, I dont wish to make further comment on Ahlul Bid'ah. I was asked and I replied who some of them are.

Regarding my teachers, I do not need to disclose who He is. Reason being that if and/or when people decide to abuse Him, they will be destroying themselves, hence for their own good I dont wish to disclose it.

Certain people who held positions of authority here referred to Hadrat Thanwi in a bad manner, referred to Mullah Muhammad Umar Sahib in a bad manner. I do not wish to be the means for further abuse upon the ulama.

Btw, I havent abused the ulama of Ahlul Bid'ah. I mentioned that ours is a theological difference, not personal nor should it be abusive.

"Med" wrote:

WHO are these puny creations who think they can do innovated practices for the betterment of the divine shariah which was sent by ALLAH Most High to His Servant, Nabi Muhammad salallahu alayhi wa sallam.

erm... It was the sahaba who first used the term of Bid'ah hasanah.

That was for establishing a congregation for Tarawih prayer.

Previously it was only read in solitary.

So who are the puny idiots who defy the sahabah?

Dave,

Hazrat Abdur Rehman bin Hazrat Abdullah Qari narrates: "During Ramadan I set out with Hazrat Umar (RA) towards the mosque and saw that the people were scattered; some were saying their prayers individually and some were reading with a group. Hazrat Umar (RA) said: "In my view it would be good if they all are assemble behind one Qari." And thus everyone was assembled behind Hazrat Abi bin Ka'ab (RA) and again the next night I sit out with him and people were saying their prayers behind their Qari and Hazrat Umar (RA) said: "What a good innovation (bid'at) this is, and the prayer they sleep through (i.e. Tahajjud, voluntary prayer) is better than the prayer they establish (Taravee prayer). Thereby this meHazrat Anas (RA) the latter part of the night whereas people used to worship when the night was young (i.e. Tahajjud prayer is better than Taravee).

Ref: Bukhari, as-Sahih, 2/707, # 1906
Malik, al-Mu’atta, 1/114, # 650

As I quoted the hadith above, you can see that he introduced a new thing which would unify the Muslim Ummah, basically I guess you can use the term discovery, but a better suited word is either innovation or introduction. Just to clarify to you that, an innovation cannot alter the basic Islamic laws set down by Allah Almighty and the Holy Prophet (SAW).

Med,

Hadith No1: Hazrat A'raj (RA) narrates that: "I asked Ibne Umar (RA) in regards to the prayer of Chasht when he (RA) was sitting while leaning against the apartment of the Holy Prophet's (SAW) apartment and he (RA) said: "It is innovation (bid'at) and it is a very good innovation (bid'at)."

Ref: Ibne Abi Shaiba, al-Musannaf, 2/172, # 7775
Asqalani, Fath-ul-Bari, 3/52, # 1121

Hadith No 2: "It has been narrated by Mujahid that Arwa bin Zubair and I entered the mosque and saw that Hazrat Abdullah bin Umar (RA) was sitting near the apartment of Hazrat Ayesha (RA) and people were saying the prayer of Chasht (voluntary prayer after Fajr). We asked him in regards to the prayer, and he (RA) replied: "It is a (good) innovation (bid'at)."

Ref: Bukhari, as-Sahih, 2/630, # 1685
Muslim, as-Sahih, 2/917, # 1255

Hadith No 3: Hazrat Jareer bin Hazrat Abdullah (RA) narrates that Holy Prophet (SAW) said: "A person who lays down the foundation for a good thing then he will receive reward for his own act and reward for those who follow him in acting upon the good thing without any reduction in their reward. And whoever starts a bad thing and then he will get punishment for his own act and for those that follow him and without any reduction in the punishment of the followers.

Ref: Muslim, as-Sahih, 2/704, # 1017
Nisai, as-Sunan, 5/75, # 2554

Hadith No 4: Hazrat Jareer bin Hazrat Abdullah (RA) narrates that the Holy Prophet (SAW) said: "Whoever starts a good thing and other people have acted upon it then that person will get his own reward and the reward of those that have followed him. The reward of the followers will not be decreased. One who has started a bad thing and then others follow him then he will be punished for his action and the punishments for those who have acted upon it. There will be no decrease in the punishment of the followers.

Ref: Tirmidhi, as-Sunan, 5/43, # 2675
Asqalani, Fath-ul-Bari, 13/302

Hadith No 5: Hazrat Abdullah bin Mas'ud (RA) narrates that: "Any act which is seen as good by a momin (true believer) is seen as good in the court of Allah Almighty and any act which is seen as bad a momin (true believer) then that is bad according to Allah Almighty as well."

Ref: Tabrani, Moujam al-Kabir, 9/112, # 8583
Ahmad bin Hambal, al-Musnad, 1/379, # 3600

Hadith No 6: Hazrat Bilal bin Harris (RA) narrates that the Holy Prophet (SAW) said: "After my demise, whoever revives my Sunnah which has been dormant then he will get the reward of all those that act upon it in the future, despite this there will be no reduction in the reward of those who act upon it. Whoever innovates an act of deviation which is disliked by Allah Almighty and His Prophet (SAW) then he will get the punishment of those who follow it without any reduction in the punishment of the followers.

Ref: Tirmidhi, as-Sunan, 5/45, # 2677
Ibne Maja, as-Sunan, 1/86, # 209-210

From the above ahadith you can explicitly see that good innovation is acceptable in Islam and people who introduce these are rewarded by Allah Almighty and likewise with the followers of good innovation. So you can clearly see that there can be good innovators and bad innovators, so if Med said that the scholars are ahlul bidah meaning that they have introduced good innovation then no one should find his comment offensive but if he meant that the scholars are ahlul bidah meaning that they are introducing innovations to misguide the Muslim Ummah then frankly people have a right to be offended, because the scholars mentioned are highly respectable and renowned scholars and a passing comment is just not right and way out of order.

I contest that view regarding Sahabah Karaam.

Their actions are sunnah, their words, their deeds are upon our heads.

Sahabah Karaam are a pure Jama'ah and their very practices are a sunnah of the shariah and cannot be considered bid'ah.

So the practice in regards to taraweeh. There are three things:

1. 20 raka'at
2. Completion of Quran
3. Reading in Jama'ah
4. Reading in a masjid.

These are the four sunnahs of Taraweeh Salah. It will be noted that ALL 4 of this sunnan were not conveyed to us by Holy Prophet salallahu alayhi wa sallam, they were established by Sayyidina Umar radhiyallahu anh.

But by us, the actions of Sahabah Karaam alayhim ridhwaan are sunnah and are an integral part of islaam and of deen.

If I uttered anything, knowingly or unknowingly, in regards to the Sahabah Karaam then I seek ALLAH's forgiveness and repent for such comments.

May ALLAH elevate the Sahabah Karaam, reward them with the most beatiful of rewards. May He ta'ala make each and everyone of us true followers of Sahabah Karaam, and grant us a true and sincere love for the Sahabah.

ameen, thumma ameeen.

Their own words are that they are bid'ah!

They are also sunnah. That is because the bid'ah was hasanah. As defined by the Sahabah.

Amber, very good and authoritative post.

Ya know guys... you don't have to make all these grand declarations and snarky remarks to each other to prove you're all very pious people.

A simple "I disagree" or "I disagree for X reason works just well"

Lemme demonstrate:

Desi Arnaz: God is a napoleon
Dave: I disagree, God is supposed to be eternal and eternal things do not perish - napoleons perish when you eat them, ergo God is probably not a donut

as compared to:

Desi Arnaz: God is a napoleon
Dave: OHHHHHH FIE UPON THEE! ALL PRESENT BARE WITNESS THAT I HATH NOT UTTERED THESE WOEFUL AND PITIFUL WORDS. VERILY I AM MERELY A SERVANT OF THE LORD A HUMBLE MAN OF NO PARTICULAR BIRTH WHOS ENTIRE BEING IS OWED TO THE LORD GOD ADONAI EL - SHADDAI, ELOHIM G-D! THOU ART TRULY A WRETCHED AND PITIFUL CREATURE, UNWORTHY OF COMMENT AND LONG BEREFT OF PIETY. MAY GOD SAVE YOU FROM YOUR WOEFUL AND HORRIBLE OPINION OR MAY HE SMITE THEE IN THE STREET FOR HAVING UTTERED SUCH A HORRIBLE THING.

as compared to:

Desi Arnaz: God is a napoleon
Dave: HAHHAHAHHAHHA oooooooooooooooh man, Choo gaw some splainin to do hahahhahaha looks like we found the village idiot! Why don't you and your crazy little ideas just go back to whatever whackjob bakery produced you freak!

Go choke on a pastry. Freak.

As fun as it is to go pirhana style on everybody that makes a... peculiar... comment in our eyes we should really hang back - it does more damage to us and the forum than good.

"Amber" wrote:

As I quoted the hadith above, you can see that he introduced a new thing which would unify the Muslim Ummah, basically I guess you can use the term discovery, but a better suited word is either innovation or introduction. Just to clarify to you that, an innovation cannot alter the basic Islamic laws set down by Allah Almighty and the Holy Prophet (SAW).

Gotcha! Thanks Amber

"Med" wrote:

WHO are these puny creations who think they can do innovated practices for the betterment of the divine shariah

And as for the questioning, I dont wish to make further comment on Ahlul Bid'ah. I was asked and I replied who some of them are.

Btw, I havent abused the ulama of Ahlul Bid'ah. I mentioned that ours is a theological difference, not personal nor should it be abusive.

These 3 statements are contradicting each other. And what exactly have you mentioned about the theological difference? And you are the one that is being abusive, or maybe as lilsis said you do need glasses!!!

well said... I gave the chance to lock the topic after the initial question had been asked.

Now I will have to wait til anarchy.

thanks for the advice I will keep that in mind next time I become too emotional

"Admin" wrote:

Their own words are that they are bid'ah!

They are also sunnah. That is because the bid'ah was hasanah. As defined by the Sahabah.

Amber, very good and authoritative post.

brother bid'ah is a word, like any other. It has different meanings and different contexts and in some it may be used in one way, in another it may mean something else.

The point here is not bid'ah hasan or bid'ah sayyi'a or bid'ah dalala etc.

I believe that there is a group who are engaged in Bid'ah and here my Bid'ah refers to the innovated practices which some would term bid'ah dalala. Now you say they referred to the actual act as bid'ah, I cannot comment on the ahadeeth mentioned, it is not in my remit nor am I qualified to do so.

But as already stated, we al agree using example taken that Sayyidina Umar was heavily involved in the taraweeh salah. One group label it bid'ah hasana, we call it a sunnah. No1 here is denying that things happen in religion, the point is whether that is deemed a bid'ah or not.

A person reads 100 times daily Surah Mulk. It is his ''practice'' to reead it after fajr salah. Linguistically this is a new act in religion, it has no basis in religion to read Surah Mulk 100 times, but this isnt bid'ah. I find difficulty in explaining this issue.

Basically the Ahlul Bid'ah are not Ahlul Bid'ah because they have innovated good new practices, but because they engage in misguided innovated practices which have confused the masses and led to great fitnah on the earth.

such as calling everything bid'ah?

Forget what I said...

Just answer Hayder's q.

How is Hamza Yusuf Ahlul Bid'ah?

The acts you say you dislike are more about selling out than bid'ah...

"Med" wrote:

Basically the Ahlul Bid'ah are not Ahlul Bid'ah because they have innovated good new practices, but because they engage in misguided innovated practices which have confused the masses and led to great fitnah on the earth.

So why can't you clearly state what exactly misguided innovated practises these scholars are engaged in?

"HOLY SMOKES"

4 pages of ahle'bidah....

hasnt med answered his question long time ago?

to long to read....

"naj" wrote:

"HOLY SMOKES"

4 pages of ahle'bidah....

hasnt med answered his question long time ago?

to long to read....

lol

he hasn't answered the part as to what practises the scholars are engaged in which in his opinion are bidah-e-dalala

"naj" wrote:

"HOLY SMOKES"

4 pages of ahle'bidah....

hasnt med answered his question long time ago?

to long to read....

Just read the first page - everything else is obiter dictum or redundancy

Another chance to tell me to go get my keys...

"Admin" wrote:

Another chance to tell me to go get my keys...

you what?

"Amber" wrote:

"naj" wrote:

"HOLY SMOKES"

4 pages of ahle'bidah....

hasnt med answered his question long time ago?

to long to read....

lol

he hasn't answered the part as to what practises the scholars are engaged in which in his opinion are bidah-e-dalala

i think his point his that even though some practises may really be classed as bidat hasanah ie mawlid....because of the way these practises are carried out by some they have become known as bad innovations.
i think everyones gettin of de hook.