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I posted your correction so you could see it.
Awwwwww, How sweeet of you!
Do I rest my case?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Yes you can rest your case now we have established democracy, british national identity and hinduism are kufr and not Islamic and they need to be totally re-engineered if they were to be Islamic along with the labels.
So if someone has reengineered them, call them Islam! Don't call yourself British Muslim, call yourself Muslim - don't call yourself Hindu Muslim, call yourself Muslim...
What I have quoted you saying is exactly what you were using to throw slurs and calling people HinduMuslim.
Islam is our religion - there is no British Islam. As for people - they can be described in many ways and have many different identities that overlap.
I don't expecially like the term British Muslim and when I wake up I don't think "I am british" and when I act throughout the day, that thought is rarely on my mind.
However if I was abroad in a foriegn country, the fact that I am british would be a differentiator, something to recognise.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Finally i understand your point of view!
whenever i think about British culture in particular, i don't think it is the same as my culture so i don wonder how that makes me fit in and be "British". I think you are right British nationality is different to like "being" British. However i think u used the word identity for that, but i still think i have a British identity but things like the difference in culture mean im not totally British,if u get what i mean?
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
If one can modify the definition of British so it has the same content of Islam, one can do the same for Hinduism and Devil Worshippers etc
Thus they should have no problems and it is not a slur for them calling themselves HinduMuslims or DevilWorshippingMuslims etc
British Islam is the version which apparently moderates follow - it excludes all the nasty bits like Caliphate, Jihad, Homosexuality being a sin, opposition to Israel etc
Being Male is part of your identity, as is your name - you don't particularly think them every minute of the day - however they are part of you and there is no denying that.
The question is, do we fit into the above definition of being British or do we fit into the definition of Muslim - both identities cover the same set of concepts with different answers...
Unless you mean "I am from Britain" or "I was born in Britain" and mean by it that your identity is British, then in my view that is a kufr identity - I would state my identity to be Islam and I am a Muslim with all that it entails - history, culture, authority, beliefs and homeland.
I had said nationality is a different concept to identity - you are given nationality according to where you are born by governments, reflected in passports etc so it is no problem. You can have a pakistani or british nationality but cannot have an Islamic nationality as there is no Islamic state.
Regarding identity, that is described above - it comprises a set of concepts relating to homeland, culture, political authority/laws and history - Islam addresses all of these categories with its own views as do most nation states - thus ones identity as a Muslim comes into conflict with alternative answers to these categories, eg do we believe in supremacy and have supreme loyalty to national laws or the laws of God? Do we think the British history is our history or the history of Islam? Do we think only the British Isles are our homeland or dar al-Islam? etc
I probably should not continue this discussion as it is circular, but I am a sucker in trying to get the last word in.
So I totally disagree with your list and that is not the British identity.
Except that they are meant to be slurs. Unlike 'Ed, I don't give a crap what I am called, but for you to pretend that the slurs do not have double meanings is disingenuous at best.
This disingenuous nature of the post(s) seems to me to go further than that - you choose different criteria to call people moderates (thinking voting is halaal) and then use a totally different definition (think homosexuality is not sinful) - one that is not acceptable - to show how the moderates are compromising faith. This makes it a false comparison that is only suitable for scoring points.
Islam is a moderate religion and the prophet
asked for us to be moderate. Do not confuse that with not thinking that homosexuality (or any other form of sexual relations outside of marriage) is a sin. When you knock the word moderate, you are knocking far more than you realise.
and in situations where Islam does not make a specific view, it co-opts the underlying view of what is already part of the identity. Its not an either or. It is about removing what is haraam and replacing it with what is halaal.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Which is what the British govt underestimated! Thus its having to do a u-turn and re-tinker with its British Islam to come up with v.2 that the "moderates" will embrace and if sufficient pressure is applied, will be able to do "new ijtihads" to make acceptable. No amount of DIY ijtihads will make the Muslim masses believe homosexuality is halal - thus even the moderates cannot do what the govt would have liked them to do. But given it's not a major sticking point for govt, they can always compromise on that point. However with ideas like Caliphate that challenge their and the US's hegemony in the Muslim world, moderates have already dumped the traditional and classical understanding of pretty much all the classical jurists! Disgraceful!
They don't have a problem in relation to Israel and opposition to it on moral grounds and sending sticky plasters - they do have a problem against those who argue the govt is illegitimate and needs replacing militarily, ie the Islamic hukm of jihad! Moderates are already compromising on this and attacking those who call for a military solution via jihad - look at the posts on this site for example.
I never said this was british identity - this is british islam and what the government has work in progress until it gets a version of islam to its liking. Those who go along with it will be its stooges...
You are entitled to believe of them what you like - but you bring the comparisons on yourselves as much as you may dislike them. If you want to re-engineer democracy and say it is halal then do the same with hinduism, communism and devil worship - what's the problem? Doesn't communism look after the poor? Aren't hindus pious and don't they worship one god? Don't devil worshippers have a religion?
Maybe you can cite what different criteria I have used - modernists think voting is halal and modernists reconcile democracy with Islam - the term moderates and extremists are loaded political terms which are used by the govt and modernists as well as secularists are increasingly being encouraged to join the dark side (aka govt!)
Maybe you can cite the hadith where Islam is moderate - including the Arabic - I am most suspect of such claims.
Terms used by the prophet(saw) have changed over the centuries as anyone who studies Islam well knows - and contemporary terminology of moderates/extremists has not been used by the Prophet(Saw) - extremists are seen as the ones who do jihad - the Prophet(Saw) did jihad - is he and Islam extremist as well? Extremism is seen as cutting hands or stoning people to death or marrying girls below 10 or having many wives or puting tribes to death - done by the Prophet(saw).
I don't believe a case exists where Islam does not have a specific view - views are generated by addressing specific realitites with specific ahkaam or addressing realitites through general texts and evidences - as the verses say, "We have ommitted nothing from the book" it comes down to one's understanding of the revelation to make such assertions.
Even if I was to accept your premise, I would address the new realities according to the direction provided by the Islamic creed, by ensuring every assertion is derived from the creed, and not by importing foreign ideologies lock stock into Islam.
Modernists appear to be dumping their Islamic heritage, jurisprudence and values by their bedazzlement of all things western and an inability to think beyond them. (In business companies who do that tend to be labelled "copycat" and never innovate or lead markets - they tend to be the products on discount regularly at supermarkets!) Despite people pointing out the flaws, intellectual and practical, of western systems and the oppression and tyranny they produce.
Road tax - how much should it be?
What about Public transport - should there be such a thing and if so, how well funded?
What about health? Schools - should people have to pay for them individually or should they be provided by the state?
General health and safety - does it need legislation and if so, to what degree?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Road tax - haram - the taxes are legislated by Allah and implemented by the Prophet(saw) such as zakat, kharaj, ushr, jizya etc Taxes cannot be arbitrarily imposed as this amounts to zulm.
Education is a mandatory role of the state as evidenced by the Prophet(saw) sending companions to teach new regions Islam. State funded provision can run in parallel with private provision.
Health and safety is obligatory as evidenced by the Prophet(saw) checking commodities of traders and sales tactics including watering down goods. Umar even appointed market inspectors.
Transport without hinderance is a right of the people as evidenced by penal laws prohibiting highway robbery and protection of trade routes at the time of the Prophet(saw) and the Khulafah Rashidah. Whether this is provided by the private sector or state participates, this decision is left to the discretion of the Caliph.
Welfare is mandatory on the state (health, benefits etc) as there is a general obligation to remove harm in the traditions of the Prophet(saw).
So you don't pay your road tax?
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
I have bolded out the contradictions in your post.
Other statements you have made are also unfunded. "welfare is mandatory" but will it all be out of zakaah? if not, where does the money come from? Same for education, were does the money for the state funded provision come from? Same with policing, where does the money come from? you mention what is allowed but then don't fund it.
If taxes are haraam, where does the money come from?
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
thought of the day:
Thank you Lord for the hot water we take for granted when they are people who don't even have running water, please help me stop wasting it.
(after the pressure of the boiler went down and me and dad had no idea how to fix it, making wudu with cold water at 3am is quite awakening..)
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
Interesting how you have moved away from your original point which appeared to be that lots of things in Islam are not legislated!
Maybe you can explain why they are contradictions - you might not know the meaning of the term but it refers to directly conflicting ideas which you have not highlighted!
Zakat, Kharaj, Ushr, Jizya, al-Anfal, Fai, Natural Resources, Penalties/Fines, Illicit Funds etc
Taxes are not haram - arbitrary taxes are haram - read my post above a little more carefully!
Thought of the day:
"The value of silence"
We do we always feel the need to fill the silences with pointless natter. I personally dont find them awkward to want to break the silence.
Sometimes people just need to shut up and sit still for a while in silence.
aaww
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Thought for the day...
....so the judge who overturned Obama's ban on oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico has a lot of money tied up in the oil industry. Nope, nothing bent there at all...
Don't just do something! Stand there.
Thought of the day - let them use their own oil.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
this topic should not be on page 21 of tracker.
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
why were YOU on page 21 of tracker? loser.
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
I remember you bringing back topics way down the line.......
losers 'R us, don't you know?
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Thats why we all love Feef
well...page 1 was guetting WAY boring, i was looking for some "new" so...PAGE TWENTY ONE!
Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
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