Islam is not the problem. Muslims are.

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You wrote:
Noor wrote:
ok that is bs.

if the practice isn't harming anyone and isn't illegal then where is the problem?

More, if the practices are harmful (which FGM is) then they should be challenged in those countries/places too, not allowed to peacefully exist because it was traditional.

well it aint happening here so i don't see the problem.

of course its wrong but there isn't much we can do about it. culture is a big thing, all we can do is make du'aa for them that they change there ways. i'm sure others have challenged them and are challenging them but right now, what more can anyone do?

rakibm wrote:
That's the thing!

For some reasons, muslims [ i have come accross] do not want to move away from their culture, even though they live in England! That is why I said Muslims are the Problem.

and they don't have to - unless it is unislamic (or a crime or unjust, but those are also covered under unislamic) and if the practice is unislamic, it SHOULD BE COMBATED EVERYWHERE.

Just because some traditions of some places are criminal or unjust it does not mean that there is no good to be taken from there.

Even the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam (Peace and Blessings be upon him) accepted advice from people and when Salman the Persian mentioned how it was customary to dig ditches as a form of defence, the practice was seen as a good idea and adopted.

rakibm wrote:
And "Exporting" our culture? Are you mad? The Taliban and Al - Qaeda hate Western Presence in their so called "Islamic" Countries, i don't think they would be very fond of our culture either. If they want to continue their indecent traditions, then let them do so where it is accepted.

No, injustice needs to be challenged where ever it is. Its not very humanist to leave everyone to their fate. We are supposed to help each other and spread justice and wellbeing.

(what if it was not culture but aid - would you also think providing aid to the needy would be a problem?)

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

I am repeating because you are not understanding.

And no one is even talking about the veil. The main purpose of this is the culture practised by Muslims, that other people see it as Islam. Such as Honor killings etc.

r@I

Honor Killings are unislamic, and do happen in England [mainly families of Pakistani Origin]

r@I

rakibm wrote:
Honor Killings are unislamic, and do happen in England [mainly families of Pakistani Origin]

YES AND?!!!!!!!!!!!!

rakibm wrote:
I am repeating because you are not understanding.


FLIPPPPPPPING HELL, you seem to be able to read what u want. YOU are the one who isn't understanding, thats why u feel the need to repeat ur self instead of replying to what we actually say, Eaith that or u really don't have a good argument.

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

rakibm wrote:
I am repeating because you are not understanding.

And no one is even talking about the veil. The main purpose of this is the culture practised by Muslims, that other people see it as Islam. Such as Honor killings etc.

hindus, sikhs also practice this!!!! not just muslims!

rakibm wrote:
I am repeating because you are not understanding.

You are repeating because you are not understanding. I understand your point. and I have countered it. You are simply wrong in your viewpoint.

rakibm wrote:
And no one is even talking about the veil. The main purpose of this is the culture practised by Muslims, that other people see it as Islam. Such as Honor killings etc.

No it isn't. We are talking about the export of culture and whether it should remain in one place and static or whether it can adapt to the surroundings, even move with people.

You are arguing the former and I am arguing the latter.

if there is an unjust/criminal practice/tradition, it should be combated. If not, it is free to exist where ever.

Making culture static is a stupid idea because it is whatever the people do and that will change with time, understanding, technology and a whole hoard of other things.

Do you really want honour killings to go on where ever they do? or do you want them to stop there too? I would hope the latter.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

rakibm wrote:
You live in England. Not in the lands of Arabia, so you DON'T wear the veil which is part of another countries Culture.

get a life mate n get off this forum if u got nothing better to say ...racism is nothing celver retaard!

Say's me.

And english people eat pork? Well we are in England einstein. Just how you would not expect a non - muslim woman to go to a Muslim country and willingly put on the veil?

r@I

Suhail wrote:
get a life mate n get off this forum if u got nothing better to say ...racism is nothing celver retaard!

now now, no need to be like that.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

I have got something better to say. And btw..it's called freedom of speech, which I can practise (not that you can say that for most so called "Islamic" Countries). Do you even know the definition of racism? That comment was not a racist comment. Look at the mirror before you call me a retard.

r@I

rakibm wrote:
Say's me.

And english people eat pork? Well we are in England einstein. Just how you would not expect a non - muslim woman to go to a Muslim country and willingly put on the veil?

and she shouldn't have to.

the saudi way is not always the right way.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

one more thing, get your terminology right.

you are talking about culture not muslims or islam so when you say xyz, say pakis, bengis, sikhs, hindus, english people do this/that.

why are you bringing religion into it?

look at reason why muslim women where the viel .... i think its better than the western culture of women having multiple boyfriends and showing themselves to every second guy...im sure you would agree that the viel is worn with the best intentions .

rakibm wrote:
I have got something better to say. And btw..it's called freedom of speech, which I can practise (not that you can say that for most so called "Islamic" Countries). Do you even know the definition of racism? That comment was not a racist comment. Look at the mirror before you call me a retard.

Lol since when did racist = retard

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

"here is an unjust/criminal practice/tradition, it should be combated"

Combated by who? Would you not agree that it has to be combated by the community? Well that is my point! It won't be...You know why, Because of so called "Muslims" who put culture before Faith.

AND btw... Multiculturalism has failed. Not that i don't support the idea, but all the Govt has achieved is to create "Ghettoes" of ethnic minorities.

r@I

So why do Muslim Women wear the veil?

BECAUSE...the veil was already worn by MEN and WOMEN way before Islam. Mainly to protect themselves from sand/storms. Am pretty sure there isn't any sandstorms in Britain.

r@I

Sorry but your posts seem to be so all over the place that I've lost track of what you're actually talkign about :/ could u please just simply mention the main points again. tnx

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

What the hell are you talking about? read it again.

r@I

Now we have forward motion, moved forward with the discussion.

rakibm wrote:
Combated by who? Would you not agree that it has to be combated by the community? Well that is my point! It won't be...You know why, Because of so called "Muslims" who put culture before Faith.

I disagree here - every generation of people have their own chance to define their culture and do do that. The cruft should be cut out and often is. Sometimes things linger on for longer than they should, but that does not mean the culture or tradition of a community cannot change.

rakibm wrote:
AND btw... Multiculturalism has failed. Not that i don't support the idea, but all the Govt has achieved is to create "Ghettoes" of ethnic minorities.

I don't think multiculturalism has failed. Compare the state of Muslim/Non-Muslim relationship in the UK compared to many other European countries and we are far healthier.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

rakibm wrote:
So why do Muslim Women wear the veil?

BECAUSE...the veil was already worn by MEN and WOMEN way before Islam. Mainly to protect themselves from sand/storms. Am pretty sure there isn't any sandstorms in Britain.

Was that the only reason? I have no time machine. If someone chooses to wear it and it has no harm to you or to anyone else, why oppose it?

Freedom of choice should be protected where there is no harm to others.

(and freedom of choice is often protected even when there is harm to people - cigarrettes are still legal and so is alcohol. Both can harm the user and others too.)

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

rakibm wrote:
I have got something better to say. And btw..it's called freedom of speech, which I can practise (not that you can say that for most so called "Islamic" Countries). Do you even know the definition of racism? That comment was not a racist comment. Look at the mirror before you call me a retard.

freedom of speech should be exercised not abused .... same as freedom to drink doesnt mean u go out every night and get smashed and end up in the gutters coz ur obviously harming yourselves yet some idiots still choose to follow these so called values and traditions .

yet the viel on the other hand cannot harm it only protects a women from the eyes of another male for simple reasons portrayed in the western society ... guys sometimes just cant keep there eyes off girls so the viel is a way of protection and women should be allowed to wear it everywhere they go not just in an 'islamic' country

and last time i looked the UK was a multicultural country that embraced all faiths and culture yet thats more than i can say for supporters of the BNP.

Then you obviously have not been to places like Bradford. That is not healthy.

And i don't think you understand...Do you not agree things like Honor Killings have to be sorted out within the community first?

r@I

rakibm wrote:
So why do Muslim Women wear the veil?

BECAUSE...the veil was already worn by MEN and WOMEN way before Islam. Mainly to protect themselves from sand/storms. Am pretty sure there isn't any sandstorms in Britain.

protect them from idiot males who have no respect for women and have to peer at every girl that walks by like animals...its quite simple.

rakibm wrote:
Then you obviously have not been to places like Bradford. That is not healthy.

And i don't think you understand...Do you not agree things like Honor Killings have to be sorted out within the community first?

yh i do agree they should be sorted out without violence before other measures are taken .. i think ur confused and you are going on stereotypes and confusing culture with religion there two completely different things

rakibm wrote:
And i don't think you understand...Do you not agree things like Honor Killings have to be sorted out within the community first?

I agree that they are crimes. I also agree that they should be punished heavily by the police. I also agree that the community that allows this should be challenged in its ways until it drops such practices. I agree that if this is done even in places outside the UK, the mindset should be dealt with as well as the criminal/policing side of it.

I do not agree that this means cultural exchanges are always bad.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

rakibm wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? read it again.

i was just politely asking u to give me ur main points since u have started like 4 different topics in one thread. It would be even more helpful if u separeted them into different threads then people would actually know what ur talking about :/

"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi

"yet the viel on the other hand cannot harm it only protects a women from the eyes of another male for simple reasons portrayed in the western society ... guys sometimes just cant keep there eyes off girls so the viel is a way of protection and women should be allowed to wear it everywhere they go not just in an 'islamic' country"

WHAT?!

How can you say that when the veil predates ISLAM? I mean if you are talking about the Headscarf/Hijab...Fine. So why does the Woman have to cover her face?

r@I

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