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good point salaf!
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
Why is it so imperitive that muslims control Jerusalem.
They have the temple mount - and guard it quite jealously.
I don't see the purpose in having administrative control as well
who sed this is imperative? :?
'guard it quite jealously'? lol no offence but we're not the one's with armed soldiers surrounding the place.
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
you're the WOMAN Aasiyah!
Maybe she's [b]"TheWoman"[/b]... :shock:
lol u guys r mad. seema ur too nice as always!
oy y r u making me laugh on this thread, its meant to b a serious topic!
[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Dust.html]Dust, X-Men[/url]
lol oh come on; how many countless organizations are centered around "taking Jerusalem?" Sure many are fringe - but I think it's stretching it a bit to pretend it's not a top religious priority to muslims, or a common call to collective action.
It's one of the biggest roadblocks to peace in the area - who controls Jerusalem. People have even been talking about making it an international city not under the control of any government or religion.
As Salaf pointed out there is a preoccupation with it that doesn't appear to be completely driven by sympathy to the plight of the Palestinians - muslims in China face similar if not worse treatment and aren't given the same attention.
Why does Jerusalem [i]need[/i] to be in muslim political control?
Christians and Jews are not allowed equal religious control over any of the "muslim" holy sites on the temple mount - conveniently placed right atop the Christian and Jewish holy places, and very liberally interpreted.
In fact it's become a real point of irritation for archaeologists who want to explore the history of the temple mount - and for geologists who are afraid the whole damn thing is ready to collapse.
Not that Waqf has been particularly helpful here - everybody knows they have been doing unsupervised digs with bulldozers.
...so yea that's guarding jealously.
Waqf is quite clear on this. - The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem goes a step further and clames the western wall is for muslims exclusively as well.
So like I said before - why is it so important for muslim control of Jerusalem (and more specifically the Temple Mount).
Thats not what I said. What I meant was that if muslims are going to give Palestine special attention it should be over the issue of Jerusalem.
The reason muslims (in Britain at least) give Palestine special attention now is because the western media gives it so much coverage and Palestinian leaders use the media to gain international sympathy for the Palestinian national cause.
It's implicit in your argument.
You said that they are giving it [i]special[/i] attention, but you disagreed with arguments for Palestinian statehood, because it isn't an islamic concept.
Thus, you admit that Palestine has added concern for muslims that go beyond what is normal for identifying with an oppressed people - your example of China is quite useful in illustrating this.
It's quite ironic that the end sum of your argument is precisely my point - there is a need (which may or may not be dominant) within your religious community to bring the Holy Land under [i]Islamic[/i] control, not secular or some other sectarian control.
While I find your entire post germain - that last paragraph really sums it up beautifully.
I am merely taking you a step further in saying indeed the reason it IS special to muslims is because ultimately the aim is to put Jerusalem back under percieved muslim control. - Some muslims feel that this can be accomplished through the Palestinian cause.
It's certainly not a sentiment unique to you, and I am simply asking why this is important.
And muslims all over the world were attuned to the events in Israel/Palestine well before the western media became concerned. - Also I was under the impression most muslims find western coverage of the area biased.
Salam
Jerusalam is a holy city to muslims.
It is going to be the most contentious part of the futrue negotiation..
Omrow
Could be. Depends what exactly the Palestinians want. To demand it be made an international city is ridiculous. To insist on East Jerusalem being a Palestinian jurisdiction is acceptable. What is presently most contentious is the Palestinian 'negotiating' technique.
[size=9]Whatever you do, know that I will always love you. Or else.[/size]
I thought the Jerusalem issue was really more of an outsider thing - like hamas and them.
The leader of Palestine for so many years was a secularist (Arafat) - his whole spiel was about Palestinian statehood.
Not religion
[size=9]Whatever you do, know that I will always love you. Or else.[/size]
He negotioated with what he had.
Demands were made of him to give up what he never had.
Not his fault there.
It was a game. A ploy. something for sharon to hide behind.
Afterall how can someone restore order if the Israeli soldiers were blowing up police stations to kill the millitants the PA arrested to question?
The PA had a right to protect these people. They were not convicted. Just suspects.
But Israel demanded an immediate death.
what is so bad about having Jerusalem an international city? you will not accept it under palestinian control. Palestinians wil not accept it under Israeli control.
The logical solution is an International city.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
What's logical about that?
[size=9]Whatever you do, know that I will always love you. Or else.[/size]
Salam
The Temple Mount is holy to both Jews and Muslims.
Both groups would not wish to give up its control.
This is the heart of the problem.
Omrow
well it wud b illogical to hand it to da jews :roll:
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
HISTORY OF JERUSALEM
[b]A Dig Into Jerusalem's Past Fuels Present-Day Debates[/b]
By Scott Wilson, Washington Post
Friday, December 2, 2005
JERUSALEM -- Down the slope from the Old City's Dung Gate, rows of thick stone walls, shards of pottery and other remains of an expansive ancient building are being exhumed from a dusty pit.
The site is on a narrow terrace at the edge of the Kidron Valley, which sheers away from the Old City walls, in a cliffside area the Bible describes as the seat of the kings of ancient Israel.
What is taking shape in the rocky earth, marked by centuries of conquest and development, is as contested as the neighborhood of Arabs and Jews encircling the excavation. But the Israeli archaeologist Eilat Mazar believes the evidence she has uncovered during months of excavation and biblical comparison points to an extraordinary discovery.
She believes she has found the palace of King David, the poet-warrior who the Bible says consolidated the ancient Jewish kingdom around the 10th century B.C. and expanded its borders to encompass the Land of Israel. Others are doubtful.
"There is sometimes a reality, a very precise reality, though maybe not all true, described in the Bible," Mazar said. "This is giving the Bible's version a chance."
Mazar's find is emerging at the nexus of history, religion and politics, volatile forces that have guided building, biblical scholarship and war in this city for millennia. Even before the findings have been assembled in a scientific paper, the discovery is prompting new thinking about when Jerusalem rose to prominence, the nature of the early Jewish kingdom, and whether the Bible can be used as a reliable map to archaeological discovery.
Only a small fraction of the structure has been exposed. But it is yielding rare clues to the early development of Jerusalem, long debated within Israel's university archaeology departments.
Some archaeologists believe Jerusalem was no more than a tiny hilltop village when it served as David's capital. The discovery of a palace or other large public building from David's time would strengthen the opposing view that he and his son, Solomon, presided over a civilization grander than the collection of rural clans some historians say made up the Jewish kingdom.
Whether David was a tribal chieftain or visionary monarch matters deeply to the Jewish historical narrative -- the story of a single people, once ruled by kings, and later dispossessed of its homeland until the modern state of Israel was created nearly 2,000 years later following the horrors of the Holocaust.
Palestinian leaders, who also claim Jerusalem as their capital, dismiss the ancient story as politically useful fiction. But given the palace's location on land Israel seized in the 1967 Middle East war, its discovery could be used to bolster the Israeli claim to the East Jerusalem neighborhood and increase Jewish settlement in the area.
The excavation, on land owned by a private organization that has been moving Jewish settlers into the Arab neighborhood, is being funded by a Jerusalem research institute that promotes policy to strengthen Israel's Jewish character and by a wealthy American Jewish investor.
Prof. Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University's Institute of Archaeology said Mazar's interpretation should be understood as the latest in a series of "messianic eruptions" designed to bolster the image of David as a ruler of an important civilization, an idea that has lost currency in recent years in part because of Finkelstein's writing against it.
"That is why you are seeing this interpretation, to counter that momentum against it," said Finkelstein, co-author of the book "The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts."
"It's an important find, and I'm not underestimating it," he said. "But from what she has found to the palace of David is a big distance."
The Bible as Record
For two centuries, historians in Germany, the United States and Israel have debated the value of the Bible as an authentic record of events. Biblical archaeology emerged as a way to explore the Old Testament through discoveries on the ground. It attracted renowned scholars and adventurers to the Holy Land, but also a number of evangelical Christians and religious Jews who appeared intent on proving the Bible true.
Those who draw on the Bible, such as Mazar, argue that it should play a central role in archaeological discovery because it is the only document from that time. But in recent decades the most accepted view has been that the Bible is more myth than history, particularly its books recounting events that happened centuries earlier, like those relating to David.
The Bible's rich account of David's life has made him one of its most identifiable figures. Slayer of Goliath, a pious and treacherous king, author of psalms, David consolidated the northern kingdom of Israel and Judah around the year 1000 B.C. into a single political state under his rule. After defeating the Jebusites, he made his capital in Jerusalem, at the time a walled settlement of about a dozen acres.
Although excavations in the West Bank have produced important finds dating to that time, Jerusalem has yielded relatively little evidence of its importance, and rapid development has overwhelmed much of the city's rich buried history.
"This place was always thought of as being a lost cause," said Amihai Mazar, a renowned Hebrew University archaeologist and Eilat's second cousin, who is working closely with her. "Now we see there is a chance for new evidence."
Eilat Mazar, 49, hails from Israel's archaeological elite. Her grandfather, Benjamin Mazar, headed excavations in the 1960s and '70s of the earthen platform Jews refer to as the Temple Mount, which they believe to be the site of the first and second Jewish temples. Muslims also hold the site sacred as the Noble Sanctuary, from which they believe Muhammad ascended to heaven.
Mazar, a widowed mother of four, is an ebullient presence in sturdy shoes and slacks, her blond, wind-blown hair falling over the tops of her gold-rim glasses as she walks the perimeter of her dig. "I excavate with the Bible in one hand," she said during a recent tour of the site, fenced off and mostly covered in preparation for the rainy season. "But I do not give up even the least bit of technical excavation or research."
Her quest began with an essay she wrote for a 1997 edition of the Biblical Archaeology Review. Mazar stated that a "careful examination of the Biblical text combined with sometimes unnoticed results of modern archaeological excavations in Jerusalem enable us, I believe, to locate the site of King David's palace."
She essentially drew a map to the palace using the Bible and two nearby excavations carried out by the British archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon and the Israeli archeologist Yigal Shilo, who was once her mentor. Digging in the 1960s, Kenyon found massive stone walls near a rough-hewn, stepped structure running up the side of the valley. On the valley floor, Kenyon uncovered Phoenician capitals -- the tops of columns -- that suggested a monumental building may have stood above.
David's palace, according to the Bible, was built by workers sent to him by the Phoenician king, Hiram of Tyre. Mazar also used passages from the Books of Samuel to trace David's steps to a site adjacent to Kenyon's excavation.
But despite her detailed pitch in a journal archaeologists say is a bridge to wealthy American Jews interested in Israel's history, no one offered to fund the idea. "The lack of interest, I think, was caught up in politics," Mazar said.
Mazar joined the Shalem Center, a research institute in Jerusalem whose policy journal promotes "Ideas for a Jewish Nation." The center is now helping fund the project, which Shalem's president, Daniel Polisar, estimates will cost $1.1 million in its first phase. The center's chairman, Roger Hertog, vice chairman of Alliance Capital Management and part owner of the New Republic and the New York Sun, pledged $500,000 of his money.
In a telephone interview, Hertog said, "These were people who had done as much work as possible without actually putting a shovel to the ground." Asked if he contributed in the hopes of enhancing the Jewish claim to East Jerusalem, Hertog said that it "was not the most significant" reason.
"All of history is used politically," Hertog said. "If something wasn't found, that would have been used. If something is found, that will be used. This is one of the most contested pieces of geography in the world, and there have always been arguments about it. Whether or not this will be used -- and I'm sure it will be -- it should also be critiqued in a meaningful way."
'A Fantastic House'
Mazar began digging in February. Within weeks, she had uncovered the remains of rooms -- including pools probably used as ritual baths -- from a Roman building dating to the time of Herod, in the 1st century B.C. Those rooms rested on bedrock in places, leaving little underneath to use in evaluating her finds.
But in other parts of the cramped site she discovered the remains of massive older walls underneath the Roman structure, running toward the rim of the Kidron Valley.
Dating the finds is always difficult. An error of even 40 years can place buildings in significantly different eras. The task is especially hard when there is no identifiable floor running between walls. Mazar has yet to find one.
A building's age is commonly fixed by what Mazar calls a "chronological sandwich," comparing material above and beneath an identifiable stratum to set the range of dates. Even without a floor, Mazar believes she has enough evidence to date the building to the 10th century B.C.
Pottery found in the one-foot layer of fill below the stone walls dates to the 12th and 11th centuries B.C. In one small room above that layer, Mazar discovered 10th-century B.C. pottery free of any material from another period. Amihai Mazar, who has excavated ancient settlements near Bethlehem, said that while scant, the sample was among the finest from that time found in Jerusalem.
"This was not just a house, but a fantastic house," Eilat Mazar said of the remains, which would have stood just outside the city walls at the time. "This would have been an intellectual step for a new king to build his palace here, a statement of his vision to expand the city."
In one room, Mazar also found a bulla, or seal, roughly dating to the 6th century B.C. It bears the words, written in ancient Hebrew, "Jehucal, son of Shelemiah, son of Shevi." The name Jehucal is found at least twice in the Book of Jeremiah. The find suggests the building was used, in one form or another, for centuries. "We're left with the assumption that this is the palace," Mazar said. "It fits so well with the history. We're not forcing it into anything."
Finkelstein, who is in charge of the excavation in northern Israel where the Bible says the battle of Armageddon took place, visited Mazar's dig a few months ago. The 56-year-old scholar, tall and voluble with a salt-and-pepper beard, has often argued with colleagues whose reliance on the Bible he finds misguided.
He believes all buildings described in the Bible were built more recently than Mazar and others believe, perhaps by a century. The interpretation would mean that Jerusalem developed into a thriving, fortified city well after David and Solomon. But Finkelstein said Mazar's find appeared to show that Jerusalem, while perhaps not important during David's time, began emerging as an important city earlier than he previously believed.
"This is the missing link we have been looking for. It represents the first step in the rise of Jerusalem to prominence in the 9th century," he said. "Why does it have to be the palace of David? Once you bring that in you sound like something of a lunatic."
Seymour Gitin, director of the W.F. Albright Institute of Archaeological Research in Jerusalem, said it was too soon to know precisely what Mazar had found. But, he said, "if this can be proven to be 10th century, it demolishes the view of the minimalists," referring to those who dismiss the unified monarchy as a petty kingdom or even as mythical.
"This find is so unusual that to really understand it she needs to keep digging," Gitin said.
With only a tenth of the building uncovered, Mazar intends to. But there is little room to expand in this place where the Bible has brought her, surrounded by Christian, Arab and Jewish houses and the Kidron Valley falling away to the south, the direction from which David arrived from Hebron three millennia ago.
[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/01/AR200512... Post[/url]
Salam
First he said: Lets kill the Jews.
Now the Prisident of Iran want all Jews to head to Europe.
I think he is looking for a fight with America.
Come on Cowboy. Make His day.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4510922.stm
Omrow
Nice guy! I know a lot of Iranian Jews who fled to Britain, they would love nothing more than to reconnect with Iran. Since the revolution it has not been possible. The few Jews who remained have had a very hard time.
What is frustrating, let alone his inhumanity, as with all politics is that somewhere in what he's saying is a reasoned logic some will believe, that Israel is directly an offshoot of European persecution, that Palestinians are persecuted by Israel, and that the Jews of Israel in fact belong in Europe. But it is a terrific distortion. To understand why you would have to look at Jewish communities in the Middle East going back a few decades before Israel was founded.
[size=9]Whatever you do, know that I will always love you. Or else.[/size]
Salam
When Israel and Iran became close friends, they will rule the world.
Omrow
Do you diffirentiate between Jews and Zionists?
(I do)
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
Short answer is yes. Longer answer is yes but...
Zionism is a belief that Israel is a Jewish imperative. Since there is a Jewish Israel today and historical circumstances have changed as they do, that belief is now consistent with and indistinguishable from the belief that Israel should act as a sovereign state, rather than being opposed outright, notwithstanding smallprint. It is not necessary to be Jewish in order to be a Zionist and it is not necessary to be Zionist to be Jewish, but it is inappropriate to form generalised beliefs about either group of people. So for instance, I am a Jewish Zionist and not anti-anything that isn't inherently nasty. I would like to see a Palestinian state side-by-side with Israel. Am I a Palestinianist? That is the caveat to distinguishing the groups, that you also be capable of distinguishing further like a decent human being, and that the term is not just a convenient way of villifying Jews, or Israelis. The term 'zionist' has been very muddied in these conspiracy theories and classic antisemitism, and I hope the purpose of making the distinction isn't to make nice with the other Jews, on prejudicial terms.
[size=9]Whatever you do, know that I will always love you. Or else.[/size]
i h8 zionists not jews. but there are many chritians that r zionists.
the conflict is no longer israil and palastine it's turned into Islam and Judaisum.
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
No it hasn't. Some Muslims make it Islam vs. but not many people are up for it unless they are left without a choice.
[size=9]Whatever you do, know that I will always love you. Or else.[/size]
what do u mean "left without choice"?
What you put in the hearts of others; is what goes back into your own heart…
I mean if Muslims bought into an Armageddon or fascist line of thinking and launched a jihad for Islam the only acceptable choice would be to trounce the jihad. Given any other prospect people would rather enjoy peace.
[size=9]Whatever you do, know that I will always love you. Or else.[/size]
indeedy
The Lover is ever drunk with love;
He is free, he is mad,
He dances with ecstasy and delight.
Caught by our own thoughts,
We worry about every little thing,
But once we get drunk on that love,
Whatever will be, will be.
ɐɥɐɥ
[b]Iranian president denies Holocaust and taunts Europe[/b]
Telegraph 09/12/2005
President Mahmoud Amadinejad of Iran provoked fresh anger yesterday when he denied that the Holocaust took place and mockingly called for a Jewish state to be set up in Europe.
His comments came weeks after he declared that Israel should be "wiped off the map", drawing widespread international condemnation.
But the Iranian president seemed undeterred when he returned to the subject of Israel and Jews in comments yesterday in the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia.
Mr Amadinejad argued that Israelis had "no roots" in the Middle East.
He said: "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces and they insist on it to the extent that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail.
"Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?
"If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -like in Germany, Austria or other countries - to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe.
"You offer part of Europe and we will support it."
The Israeli foreign ministry was swift to denounce Iran. Mark Regev, the ministry's spokesman, said: "This is not the first time, unfortunately, that the Iranian president has expressed the most outrageous ideas concerning Jews and Israel.
"He is not just Israel's problem. He is a worry for the entire international community."
In Washington, a White House spokesman said: "It just further underscores our concerns about the regime in Iran. It's all the more reason why it's so important that the regime does not have the ability to develop nuclear weapons."
Mr Amadinejad's militancy since unexpectedly winning the presidential election in June has put him on a collision course with the West, particularly over his country's controversial nuclear programme.
Iran says that it seeks to develop a fully fledged nuclear industry to generate electricity. However, the West suspects that it is using the programme to build atomic weapons.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/09/wiran09....
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