Gaza Bombarded

Published by BD Brother on 27 December, 2008 - 15:40
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Submitted by You on 8 January, 2009 - 01:41

It is mentioned in the qur'an I think. Translating off the top of my head:

"Glory be His who took his servant Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam (Peace and Blessings be upon him) through a part of the night from Masjid Haram to Masjid Aqsa"

After that there would also be ahadith chronicling the events of the mi'raj.

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"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by Joie de Vivre on 8 January, 2009 - 01:45

Thanks Admin. I stand corrected.

—
  • It can never be satisfied, the mind, never. -- Wallace Stevens
Submitted by You on 8 January, 2009 - 01:50

Joie de Vivre wrote:
"<a href=" target="0">Someone on 7cgen</a>" wrote:
If we look at it from a humanitarian point of view, the most important thing is putting an end to the loss of innocent lives, an end to the spilling of women and childrens blood. Off course we as Muslims will not be contempt at Israel ending the massacre, however, this saves lives whilst buying us time.

We Muslims will never be contempt until the liberation of Muslim land, restoration of Muslim dignity and establishment of justice in the land. We know Israel is the root of the problem, but we are not in a position to provide an immediate resolution overnight. We can only work towards it - but in the mean time we need to take every possible measure to prevent the further loss of lives in Palestine.

Here in a nutshell is Israel's problem. While facing and indeed agreeing with the world's humanitarian concerns, Israel will find that any mercy or goodwill it shows is a weakness to be exploited.

You're taking the words of an internet poster way too seriously IMO.

Why would a "lasting ceasefire" be treated any different from a "short ceasefire"? It would not be - unless the people feel that they are not getting what they bargained for. In that case the result with both will still be the same.

Hamas has previously as linked to by Beast offered a "multi-year ceasefire". To me that reads as peace. as if the sides comply with both their sides, it could go on indefinitely.

On the other hand, the new mentions of ceasefire do call the cynic out in me. Seems like the violence had no point other than to sell th ceasefire to the Israeli population close to an election.

—

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by You on 8 January, 2009 - 06:27

Rockets hit Israel 'from Lebanon'

At least three rockets fired from the direction of Lebanon have landed in the north of Israel, Israeli security forces say.

Israel's Haaretz newspaper said at least one rocket had hit the Nahariya area, north of the city of Haifa.

At least two people were slightly wounded, the newspaper reported.

The news came as Israel reported making 60 air strikes on the Gaza Strip in a single night, targeting facilities used by the Hamas group.

Northern Israel came under attack from rockets fired by Hezbollah during the brief war with Lebanon in the summer of 2006.

No group has yet claimed responsibility for the latest attack.

The BBC's Mike Sergeant in Jerusalem says this is a very dangerous moment in Israel's conflict.

The fear in the past few days has been that the violence in Gaza could spread to northern Israel and the Lebanese border area.

—

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by The Lamp on 8 January, 2009 - 11:30

Joie, mate, surely it's wrong to think that showing mercy to the civilians is a weakness? To me it's what makes you decent and different from Far Right Nazis.

—

“Before death takes away what you are given, give away whatever there is to give.”

Mawlana Jalal ud Din Rumi

Submitted by BD Brother on 8 January, 2009 - 12:55

Joie de Vivre wrote:
Omrow, I can't fault you on your desire to present a rational neutral view and in fact, kudos.

**********************************************

More generally:

"<a href=" target="0">Someone on 7cgen</a>" wrote:
If we look at it from a humanitarian point of view, the most important thing is putting an end to the loss of innocent lives, an end to the spilling of women and childrens blood. Off course we as Muslims will not be contempt at Israel ending the massacre, however, this saves lives whilst buying us time.

We Muslims will never be contempt until the liberation of Muslim land, restoration of Muslim dignity and establishment of justice in the land. We know Israel is the root of the problem, but we are not in a position to provide an immediate resolution overnight. We can only work towards it - but in the mean time we need to take every possible measure to prevent the further loss of lives in Palestine.

Here in a nutshell is Israel's problem. While facing and indeed agreeing with the world's humanitarian concerns, Israel will find that any mercy or goodwill it shows is a weakness to be exploited. Not all Palestinians will feel that way, let alone all Muslims, but Hamas does, and so do many of the people most vicious in their rhetoric on sites such as this. The poster I cited goes on to say, without a hint of irony:

Quote:
The blood of a believer is far more precious in than any of our holy sites!

For now at least Israel will be looking to halt fighting so long as the rocket attacks do not resume. And I'm pleased to note Israel has implemented a 4 hour daily ceasefire (for its part) to let supplies through to Gaza.

Finally a question: Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Qur'an. At what point did Mohammed's ascension become associated with Jerusalem?

Do you believe that Palestine is the land that had no people and, on that basis, do you support the killing of people who are standing up for themselves, through forms of systematic torture with the various methods including the dropping of chemical weapons together with ground assaults crushing every tree that comes in the way compelled with the firing of bullets straight through babies ?

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Submitted by Joie de Vivre on 8 January, 2009 - 15:17

BD Brother wrote:
Do you believe that Palestine is the land that had no people and, on that basis...

No. I believe the argument that the land is Islamic waqf to which Jews have no right is deeply flawed. That may not be your position but it is the position of the MB and its surrogate Hamas. By targeting Israel above any other nation the MB can bask in the support of most of the ummah any time Israel fights back, and of course the ummah does not agitate to any suich degree elsewhere regardless of the scale of warfare or oppression. I appreciate far more The Lamp's question that does not presume the worst motives on Israel's part, and if may clarify, mercy is not weakness, but if it is capitalised upon by Hamas as weakness then Israel and more seriously the Palestinians are bound in conflict no matter what. Egypt recognises this - it would not be negotiating for ceasefires that undermine Hamas were that against its own interest. Circumstances have me typing this on a mobile phone, so I shall respond only to that first misconception, since it is more tangible than words to the effect that I am not without compassion.
—
  • It can never be satisfied, the mind, never. -- Wallace Stevens
Submitted by Joie de Vivre on 8 January, 2009 - 15:23

And to You, I don't imagine that post I quoted is important, but it very well encapsulates the meager equivications of Hamas and quoting it was preferable to speculation as to the existence of that stand.

—
  • It can never be satisfied, the mind, never. -- Wallace Stevens
Submitted by You on 8 January, 2009 - 15:33

k, no probs - but I do think its all worrying about a bogeyman that is powerless and will remain so.

—

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by You on 8 January, 2009 - 18:19

UN suspends Gaza aid operations

The UN has said it is suspending aid operations in Gaza because its staff have been hit by Israeli attacks.

The suspension would continue "until the Israeli authorities can guarantee our safety and security", the UN said.

The international Red Cross has also accused Israel of failing to fulfil its duty to help wounded civilians in Gaza.

Meanwhile, the US, UK and France have dropped opposition to a UN resolution urging an immediate ceasefire, and Arab nations are studying a draft.

The US, UK and France had wanted a weaker statement, the BBC's Laura Trevelyan in New York says.

But Arab foreign ministers said anything less than a binding resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire would be an inadequate response to the crisis, our correspondent says...

Read more @

—

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by Beast on 8 January, 2009 - 18:24

If Israel manages to get rid of Hamas it may end up handing Gaza to Al Qaeda. This will make Gaza the new Iraq.

Jonathan Freedland

Israeli officials deny that regime change in Gaza is either likely to happen or the goal of their mission. But that may end up being the result: intelligence reports suggest the organisation has been eviscerated, its ability to govern all but destroyed.

For Gaza could become a vacuum, rapidly descending into Somalia, a lawless badland of warlords and clans. A new force could seek to replace Hamas. Most likely it would be even more radical: al-Qaida has long been pushing at the edges of Gaza, eager to find a way in.

Perhaps Israel's leadership will see this danger and hold back, pushing for a ceasefire that would be robust and externally supervised but would ultimately, if indirectly, amount to a deal with Hamas. If that is the outcome, it will be a strange kind of victory. For Israel could have got that through diplomacy, without causing the death, mayhem and damage to its international reputation now unfolding before our eyes. If it goes further, it will have removed one danger - only to have replaced it with one far greater.

Submitted by You on 8 January, 2009 - 19:03

Q has a different ideology to Hamas.

It would be worse the same reason it was worse in Iraq - they are takfiri accept/demand/work towards the death of anyone that disagrees with them - Palestinian or Israeli in this case.

—

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by You on 8 January, 2009 - 19:09

Dare what?

the ideology would be changed to something more desparate IMO. No idea if the people will let it take hold though - they may resist it and stick by even a broken Hamas as that is pretty much indigenous.

I do not think they ("they" being either the Israelis or the Alqaeda people - but they may be forced to acknowledge each others existence) can break Hamas. They may be able to take the symbols of power, but they will not be able to turn the people away from them.

—

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by wednesday* (not verified) on 8 January, 2009 - 19:25

Make the left wing a dead-end and all should fall into the correct place.

Submitted by BD Brother on 8 January, 2009 - 21:48

BD Brother wrote:
Joie de Vivre wrote:
Omrow, I can't fault you on your desire to present a rational neutral view and in fact, kudos.

**********************************************

More generally:

"<a href=" target="0">Someone on 7cgen</a>" wrote:
If we look at it from a humanitarian point of view, the most important thing is putting an end to the loss of innocent lives, an end to the spilling of women and childrens blood. Off course we as Muslims will not be contempt at Israel ending the massacre, however, this saves lives whilst buying us time.

We Muslims will never be contempt until the liberation of Muslim land, restoration of Muslim dignity and establishment of justice in the land. We know Israel is the root of the problem, but we are not in a position to provide an immediate resolution overnight. We can only work towards it - but in the mean time we need to take every possible measure to prevent the further loss of lives in Palestine.

Here in a nutshell is Israel's problem. While facing and indeed agreeing with the world's humanitarian concerns, Israel will find that any mercy or goodwill it shows is a weakness to be exploited. Not all Palestinians will feel that way, let alone all Muslims, but Hamas does, and so do many of the people most vicious in their rhetoric on sites such as this. The poster I cited goes on to say, without a hint of irony:

Quote:
The blood of a believer is far more precious in than any of our holy sites!

For now at least Israel will be looking to halt fighting so long as the rocket attacks do not resume. And I'm pleased to note Israel has implemented a 4 hour daily ceasefire (for its part) to let supplies through to Gaza.

Finally a question: Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Qur'an. At what point did Mohammed's ascension become associated with Jerusalem?

Do you believe that Palestine is the land that had no people and, on that basis, do you support the killing of people who are standing up for themselves, through forms of systematic torture with the various methods including the dropping of chemical weapons together with ground assaults crushing every tree that comes in the way compelled with the firing of bullets straight through babies ?

Would you care to give me a direct response ?

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Submitted by Joie de Vivre on 8 January, 2009 - 22:22

That's a strange request. I responded.

—
  • It can never be satisfied, the mind, never. -- Wallace Stevens
Submitted by Joie de Vivre on 8 January, 2009 - 22:43

The answer to your question was no, and then if you like you can read the paragraph that followed.

—
  • It can never be satisfied, the mind, never. -- Wallace Stevens
Submitted by Joie de Vivre on 8 January, 2009 - 23:09

BD Brother wrote:
why are the israelis commiting such horrors then, and do you oppose them as any sane human being would ?

No loading the questions then. The Israelis are at war to prevent Hamas firing rockets into Israel. They contend that Hamas is deliberately putting civilians at risk. Despite a heavy heart I do not oppose Israel doing this. Israel is not going after civilians, and since I firmly believe this, in fact I can purport to know it, we may disagree.
—
  • It can never be satisfied, the mind, never. -- Wallace Stevens
Submitted by BD Brother on 8 January, 2009 - 23:50

Joie de Vivre wrote:
BD Brother wrote:
why are the israelis commiting such horrors then, and do you oppose them as any sane human being would ?

No loading the questions then. The Israelis are at war to prevent Hamas firing rockets into Israel. They contend that Hamas is deliberately putting civilians at risk. Despite a heavy heart I do not oppose Israel doing this. Israel is not going after civilians, and since I firmly believe this, in fact I can purport to know it, we may disagree.

So you condone the shooting of metal bullets through babies. This makes you no better than the evil emperor nimrod, indeed, the curse of God was on him.

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Submitted by Joie de Vivre on 8 January, 2009 - 23:54

BD Brother wrote:
So you condone the shooting of metal bullets through babies. This makes you no better than the evil emperor nimrod, indeed, the curse of God was on him.

I can't be bothered responding to unadulterated vitriol. You can look those words up when you're done looking up Nimrod. It isn't as if you are reading my answers in good faith, the most basic of requirements for a discussion on such a sensitive matter.

It also isn't as if I am coming here with a weight of evidence regarding Hamas, solely because it isn't necessary. Nobody has to try hard to establish exactly what is genuinely going on.

—
  • It can never be satisfied, the mind, never. -- Wallace Stevens
Submitted by valorous_warrior on 9 January, 2009 - 00:04

Jew de Vile wrote:
BD Brother wrote:
why are the israelis commiting such horrors then, and do you oppose them as any sane human being would ?

No loading the questions then. The Israelis are at war to prevent Hamas firing rockets into Israel. They contend that Hamas is deliberately putting civilians at risk. Despite a heavy heart I do not oppose Israel doing this. Israel is not going after civilians, and since I firmly believe this, in fact I can purport to know it, we may disagree.

No no and no .... we are not ignorant enough to fall for the 'israelis at war to prevent hamas firing rockets into israel'...because we all know israeli broke the pecae terms...the blockade ( an act of war) by starving the people out, then they attacked hamas (proven by creditable sources) whilst the whole world was focusing on usa election....then hamas fired rockets (which by the way are never accurate and cause minimal damage)....thus israel got there wish to use that as a pretext to invade gaza, further enchancing there chances of getting israeli support to win the elelction and topple hamas .... the world is not so ignorant to fall for israeli propaganda

israeli soldeirs have bombed schools, mosques and family homes ...they then have targeted paramedic crews (shown by al-jazeera filmed by spainish news crew) ...and now attacked un aid workers killing a palestinian driver...the civillian death toll is 700+ including 219 children ...all this in less than 2 weeks ... that is targeting civillians as blatent as can be

there are many jews who are telling the truth and oppose the actions of israeli military ...they have my upmost respect....you are an sinister pernicious individaul after knowing this, and seeing the civillian carnage and suffering, and posting on this forum for many years..you try and justify and support the terrorist actions of israel whilst the whole world condemns it...rot in hell

—

Unity of muslims
Power to Hamas
Free palestine
Peace in Gaza

Submitted by You on 9 January, 2009 - 00:08

...the civillian death toll is 700+ including 219 children ...all this in less than 2 weeks ... that is targeting civillians as blatent as can be

I am sure they could rack up a higher body count if they really did target civilians.

The argument is NOT that they are targeting civilians, rather that many are dying - and that the action is both wrong and counter productive.

They could have just as easily lived by the previous ceasefire if they wanted - all they had to do was allow more goods through.

—

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Submitted by Joie de Vivre on 9 January, 2009 - 00:16

valorous_warrior wrote:
Jew de Vile... you are an sinister pernicious individaul after knowing this, and seeing the civillian carnage and suffering, and posting on this forum for many years..you try and justify and support the terrorist actions of israel whilst the whole world condemns it...rot in hell

Thank you very much.

First, I'm not being personal. Since your post boils down to a personal accusation, I shall have to speak for myself:

I'm giving you my opinions, not even going so far as to say a great deal beyond answering questions - one reason is that a lot of the time I'm commenting from a phone, which doesn't lend itself to heavy linking, quoting or other formatting. Another reason is some people are inflamed enough already, and so I try to keep my answers straightforward. Another reason is that there is little point - you know what Hamas does. If that isn't enough to bring you to an impartial assessment, even if you do take sides, and an honest appraisal of what "your side" believes, nothing I can say will do that for you. Another reason is that not everything I can throw at Hamas is an answer to the anger shown by some on this forum, I do have a heavy heart about the whole thing, and I shrink from overly emotive arguing.

There are discussions where what is not said, you acknowledge you have not heard, and there are discussions where what is not said is a blank canvas on which you can paint all kinds of things like "sinister" and "pernicious".

The final reason I don't push the boat out is, despite what some might think, I really do my best not to patronise and manipulate this forum.

—
  • It can never be satisfied, the mind, never. -- Wallace Stevens
Submitted by valorous_warrior on 9 January, 2009 - 00:11

You wrote:

...the civillian death toll is 700+ including 219 children ...all this in less than 2 weeks ... that is targeting civillians as blatent as can be

I am sure they could rack up a higher body count if they really did target civilians.

The argument is NOT that they are targeting civilians, rather that many are dying - and that the action is both wrong and counter productive.

They could have just as easily lived by the previous ceasefire if they wanted - all they had to do was allow more goods through.

well yeh true, i wouldnt say target civillians as its not their objective of the war ..but its clear they have a general disregard for any civillian life in gaza

—

Unity of muslims
Power to Hamas
Free palestine
Peace in Gaza

Submitted by You on 9 January, 2009 - 00:14

Joie de Vivre][quote=valorous_warrior wrote:
Jew de Vile...

Where is this from?

@ Valorious - manners don't cost a thing and such language is not acceptable.

—

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

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