I think he's an alien.

Think about it:

He knows the world is about to end soon (invasion)

He has crazy knowledge about where you are (from his space ship)

He doesn't need saline in his eyes

He appears to be able to move from one point to another faster than any [i]human[/i] vehicle could move.

Case closed.

yeh i know the guy, spoke to him a few times re the trinity.. every single time i speak to him, when he finds out I've read a bit of the Bible and Qur'an.. he's gone.

interesting guy,..

a few sundays back, was takin my nephews to the park, walked past a church, an African guy stops me, and starts talking about the injustices in the world. Speaks to my nephews about Jesus and God. He asks me about Jesus.

I just looked him in the eye, and told him that I believe that Jesus was one of the greatest prophets sent by the one and only God. I am Muslim and I worship almighty Allah. What do you know about Islam?

I really wanted to talk to the guy, cos he looked like a good guy. Yeh he a bit confused with his beliefs, but it took him a lot of courage to come upto me.

But as soon as I asked him that, he said have a nice day and walked away? I kept calling him to come back, my nephews at this point were laughing to themselves..

i hope he remembers me, and looks into Islam with an open heart... he was a good guy.

lol my old drill instructor used to harass these people with bull horns.

I still remember all those stupid tunes he used to play.

DA DA DA DAAA DA DAAAAA!

"Constantine" wrote:

Constantine the Great was a complicated and interesting man - and a hero to me. He did a lot of great things for Christianity, and modern scholars in their attempts to discredit him have altered the truth.

[b]The facts are we do not know much about Constantine except from monuments, and the church.[/b] What we know from both is that he was a brilliant military leader, and a patron of the Christian rennaisance (if one can call it that in the 3rd anf 4th centuries).

[b]It is quite literally impossible to know what his or his mother's motives were, [/b]however what I see in his actions - ending the persecution of the Christians, creating concensus amongst Christian leaders (this nonsense about Nicaea being about marrying Christianity and Pagan practices is ridiculous - it was about Arianism and the Emperor spoke only twice), and securing Christianity's peaceful growth throughout the empire are very noble.

The only possible reproaches I have for the Emperor are:

1. Looking back, the marriage of the Roman Empire and Christianity paved the way for Christian persecution of later peoples, a digression from the tenets of the faith.

and

2. As a military leader and a soldier he compromised his faith many times.

He might be the most important Christian intellectual in early Christian heritage.

And its "In hoc signo vinces" By this sign you shall conquer - it relates to the battle of Milvian bridge and his adoption of Christianity. The symbol was the Chi Rho "X P" the monograph of Christ, with ALPHA and OMEGA on either side - that's not a pagan symbol, you should know that.

He didn't worship the sun, he replaced it. The idea of his Nova Roma was that it would be a Christian Empire, as compared to the pagan Western Empire. December 25th is an attempt (very succesful I might add) to eradicate the Roman gods.

As for this "the butcher" stuff, are you quoting somebody or are you trying to fabricate history?

I have no idea what your talking about:

[u]READER'S DIGEST VERSION OF MY CONTENTIONS[/u]

1 ) Constantine was NO Christian. He converted literally about an hour before his death KNOWING he was dying. That is no worthy sacrifice for God. That's just a bad joke on him.

2 ) He vicously tortured Christians during his lifetime. His mother sent many loyal men to their deaths for ridiculous pagan-inspired crusades for something totally fictitous.

3 ) We know about him from the Vatican archives, also Lactantius' "De Mortibus Persecutorum", Eusebius' "Life of Constantine", and many others who mostly contradict one another badly.

4 ) Helene's "motives" were quite clear to any true theologian historian that she venerated Plato's teachings. Plato, but mainly Aristotle, where the one's who created the Trinity myth which is based on ancient Babylonian teachings of the 3 gods in 1. They also propagated the false separate immortality of the soul and hellfire myth. Note you can not find the actual word TRINITY anywhere in the bible. Jesus never supported once that he was the same person as the Almighty named YHWH (tetragrammaton can be translated as Yahweh). He actually made it clear they were totally separate entities.

5 ) The crucifix was Helene's invention from the image you call ALPHA and OMEGA at Milvian Bridge. She based it on the Babylonian god mother Tammuz which is represented by the Roman letter T which we use [T]oday. The bible speaks of some apostate Jews worshipping the Babylonian Tammuz goddess too. It is quite clear from Greek translations of Jesus' death that the word "stauros" was used to describe his torture method. Roman's used stuaros' a lot to kill people slowly and painfully. Since it caused you to strangle yourself because your arms are over your head while hanging from a nail. Stauros means "tree" or "stake". A wooden cross piece was invented by Helene to fit her old belief system in pagan Babylonian demigods. The rest is history. Some choose to use "revisionist" history like the apostate Catholic and Protestant church.

6 ) There are many Babylonian-based and Roman pagan symbols used by so-called Christians today like the goddess Aester for Easter, Roman Saturnalia for Christmas Dec. 25th, Halloween, etc. etc.

7 ) Here's one for you Protestants. Please find the phrase TEN COMMANDMENTS in your bible. Sorry not there! Another fallacy. God gave Moses 10 WORDS which evolved into another 600+ more words for the faithless Jews who never followed them correctly even today (you should see how they subvert their so-called sabbath today with electronic gadgets). So why all of the hubbub over putting a fictitous artifact of (IMO) Hollywood invention in an American government building? (also there is no word in the bible for RAPTURE. Try finding it you abortion-clinic bombing bible thumpies.)

8 ) What religion am I? The same religion of Jesus, Paul, Peter, et al. We all worship a "different" God than Catholics and Protestants. Albeit, it's the same God as the Jews but they changed things when they allowed their chosen Sanhedrin to let the Italians (Romans) execute God's son. Plus they never really obeyed the 600+ words (or commandments) given them either.

Matter of biblical history...

I could be more detailed with bibliography references and referenced footnotes "but I am just passing through on my way to Austraila" - James Garner in Support Your Local Sheriff.

Sorry for my rude glib smugness. Occupational hazard I guess...

Spooky

PS - Things you won't find mentioned BY NAME in your bible:
Trinity, immortal soul, hellfire, purgatory, prayers for the dead, and use of rosaries. Jesus had prophesied that after the death of the apostles a seed of false Christianity would be introduced into the world, and that until the “harvest” false and true Christians would exist side by side. (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43)

Spooky my uncommonly stupid friend. Crawling out of your hole to insult Constantine - and now my religion?

First i'd like to say a hearty "why don't you let the believers handle biblical interpretations and you can keep your unbelieving hands off it."

How about that?

Fabulous.

I'm just going to glaze over the Constantine nonsense - pointing out Eusebius (quod lego in latin), the Edict of Milan, and the first temple of the Holy Sepulchre (wait... what happened to that one? Refresh my memory) that Constantine was pretty clearly Christian well before the last hour before he died.

Let's skip to your diatribe against the holy trinity and various other matters "not in the bible"

The trinity isn't explicitly stated in the bible - no intelligent person would tell you it is. Trinity is our word to describe what is quite clearly written in the bible - Jesus is the Son of God, God in Heaven is God the Father, God in us is the Holy Spirit and they are all one God.

UNLIKE what the [i]Qur’an[/i] tells you the Trinity is:

“And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.” Holy Qur’an 5:116

In the name of the father - and the son - and Mary

err...

huh?

When was [i]THAT[/i] the case?

But ya know what? I'll let you handle explaining the Qur’an - I shall prefer to not divine other people's religions for them.

I'm sure you'll make some ridiculous point like "oh, oh but it doesn't explicitly say "Trinity" so obviously it's kosher!!"

That would simply betray your rouse and demonstrate you are not in fact a Christian since that is not a Christian train of thought.

But hell forget all that - it's a distraction from the main point anyway.

And the main point is...............(focus)................So what is explicitly stated in the bible? THE TRINITY'S FRIGGEN SYNONYM GODHEAD.

To illustrate this point I have provided a link to an excellent source I would like you to get well acquainted with. It's called the dictionary - and I promise you if you ever become interested in evolving into an intelligent individual, the dictionary will definitely be a great resource for you:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Godhead

1. Divinity; godhood.
2. Godhead
1. The Christian God, especially the [b][i][u]Trinity[/u][/i][/b].
2. The essential and divine nature of God, regarded abstractly.

1 John 5:7-8, "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."

Acts 17:29, "[b]Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.[/b]"

Hey! Look at that - the apostles not only telling us about the Godhead but also telling us it's not a man made idea!

Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"

Colossians 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"

Proverbs 30:4 (Old Testament ~ Before Jesus), "Who hath ascended up into the heavens, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in a mantle? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou knowest?"

Luke 3:21, 22, "Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

Mark 5:1-20, "and crying out with a loud voice, he said,
"What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me."
For he said to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"
He asked him, "What is your name?"
He said to him, "My name is Legion, for we are many." "

1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

2 Corinthians 4:6, "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

Zechariah 12 8-10, "8 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them.
9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 “[b]And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; [u]then they will look on Me [i]whom they pierced[/i][/u]. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn[/b]."

Just an eerie prophetic note I thought I’d end with.

So.... basically you won't find trinity but you will find Godhead - which if you knew anything about Christianity IS A SYNONYM. You'll find God calling Jesus his beloved Son, and you'll find this strange comment from John "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."

Gee... I guess you got me.

Obviously you are some out of control Muslim because NOBODY WOULD TELL YOU A ROSARY COMES FROM THE BIBLE, it's a trinket that Catholics use to keep their number of prayers straight.

Oh yea - and I'M A PROTESTANT.

How bloody ignorant can you get? The concept of an immortal soul stems from the [u]fact[/u] God stated there are one of two destinies for a person's soul after they die - Heaven or Hell.

For how long?

ETERNITY.

It's immortal because God has told us he doesn't plan on destroying them.

Not even going to touch Hellfire - I simply don't have time to show you biblical evidence of hell existing and being unpleasant. Purgatory IS A CATHOLIC HERESY (remember from up above Dave = Protestant) And finally you can pray for whatever you want to pray for, if there are dead people you want to pray for – Go for it slugger.

Quote:

What religion am I? The same religion of Jesus, Paul, Peter, et al. We all worship a "different" God than Catholics and Protestants. Albeit, it's the same God as the Jews but they changed things when they allowed their chosen Sanhedrin to let the Italians (Romans) execute God's son. Plus they never really obeyed the 600+ words (or commandments) given them either.

Obviously you are Muslim that has NO idea what Christianity is. You seem to think that if it isn't directly stated in the bible it's somehow heretical - these are MUSLIM concepts - not CHRISTIAN - get the difference through your thick skull.

That way next time you are pretending to be some airy Jehovah's witness-like religion you can at least put up a convincing lie.

And what is your point about Christ's warning against heresy?! Muslims say there will be only 1 out of some 72 Islamic sects that will be correct in the end.

Sorry for my smugness and glibness - I guess I just don't like you.

I'm done with you.

Est haec optimus vos operor? - Sum non evinco sic facile.

Dave

"Omrow" wrote:

Salam

"Constantine" wrote:

As far as I know the scrolls pertaining to the early Christian community are in the Vatican secret archives and nobody is allowed to see em.

I hear it's because it counters a lot of the heresies of the church.

I think they hid these ancient scrolls because they confirm Islam.

These documents are 2000 years old.

Why is the Vatican so scared ?

Omrow

Islam is only 1400 years old or do you believe jesus was a muslim? PPeople on other forums say all the prophets were muslims.

"Constantine" wrote:

lol if they confirmed something about Islam we would definitely know about it. Nobody can keep a secret that big.

However if they confirm the greek orthodox bible's account that St Andrew was given the blessing from Christ and not Peter, the Vatican would instantly be irrelevant with no authority on any matter.

They would blink out of existence.

And if there is anything people love above all else - it's power.

If you are talking about Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
He was refering to thee rock of faith, I don't think Jesus was talking about a person.

"stmark" wrote:

"Constantine" wrote:

lol if they confirmed something about Islam we would definitely know about it. Nobody can keep a secret that big.

However if they confirm the greek orthodox bible's account that St Andrew was given the blessing from Christ and not Peter, the Vatican would instantly be irrelevant with no authority on any matter.

They would blink out of existence.

And if there is anything people love above all else - it's power.

If you are talking about Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
He was refering to thee rock of faith, I don't think Jesus was talking about a person.

Yea that's my interpretation as well - Catholics believe it was literally building the Church and handing the keys to Peter - bishop of Rome.

Ergo Rome has supreme authority.

I think you are dead right about the rock of faith, I don't really understand any other interpretation.

The only head of the Christian Church should be Christ.

(I'm a Presby by the way)

did u guys ever get around to suing the presbyterians who were forceably using deprived kids as guinea pigs for drugs tests?

but thought this might be interesting.. apologies for my lack of commentary from scholars:

5:75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

and this one too..

4:171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

4:172. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah.: those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).

NewYork Presbyterian Hospital isn't sectarian and isn't connected in anyway with the Presbytary or the Presbyterian church - nor have they been since long before the NewYork bought Presbyterian in 1998.

Sick to see that sort of thing happen with a hospital that was founded by Presbyterians, and when it was run by them was one of the premier child pediatric programs in the country.

I'm sure a muslim would find passages from the Quran defying the divinity of Christ interesting.

I am not so intrigued.

I find passages like "[i]Take heed lest any man decieve you: for many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ, and shall decieve many. . . for false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, the very elect.[/i]" (Mark 8:5, 22) interesting.

I wouldn't imagine you would find such passages interesting would you?

edit- u guys should definatly do something about it. i mean the child abuse happening in the name of ur Church.. its not very good is it..

i find it fascinating.. how the people of the book have different understandings of Jesus a.s.

the verse u posted is definatly interesting.. its what Muslims would refer to Dajjals emerging.

But for a nation to emerge from the Bretheren of Israel, who take up more or less a quarter of the worlds population. Who worship in the Kabah which Arbraham a.s. originally built,..

I find that verse very interesting.. I also find the following verse very interesting,..

Deutronomy 18:18 - I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him.

thats from the 21st Century King James Version..

thats awfully similar to how the revelations were sent to our beloved prophet Muhammad s.a.w

"khan" wrote:

edit- u guys should definatly do something about it. i mean the child abuse happening in the name of ur Church.. its not very good is it..

No, it's not happening in our name - you really have to read my posts carefully Khan. The hospital is not in any way connected to the Presbytary or the Presby church, nor has it been for a long time.

Nor do the Presbyterians have an exclusive right to the name.

"khan" wrote:

i find it fascinating.. how the people of the book have different understandings of Jesus a.s.

That's not terribly surprising since the Quran somewhat irresponsibly lumps two very different religions together - remember the Jews do not recognize Christ to be anything

"khan" wrote:

the verse u posted is definatly interesting.. its what Muslims would refer to Dajjals emerging.

But for a nation to emerge from the Bretheren of Israel, who take up more or less a quarter of the worlds population. Who worship in the Kabah which Arbraham a.s. originally built,..

Really? See I find it interesting that the biblical passage speaks in [i]plurals[/i], to us who follow the words directly it seems to indicate both false christs (plural, antichrist) and false [i]prophets[/i] (plural, prophets) who do "great things" and fool many people - even the most pious. Kinda makes you think - at least it makes a christian think.

"khan" wrote:

I find that verse very interesting.. I also find the following verse very interesting,..

Deutronomy 18:18 - I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him.

thats from the 21st Century King James Version..

Yea that is pretty cool isn't it. And it's good to see how God always keeps his promises - afteral he [u]did[/u] raise the Jews up a prophet from among their bretheren didn't he?

Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Daniel
Job
Isaiah
Elijah
Elisha

He sent a whole bunch of prophets to the jews from among their bretheren.

"khan" wrote:

thats awfully similar to how the revelations were sent to our beloved prophet Muhammad s.a.w

lol from a muslim perspective i'm sure that is awfully similar.

I suppose that's why muslims aren't world renowned biblical scholars eh?

See I can't stress enough, khan, how important it is to have a real solid grounding in the text and context. You can't ignore important and controlling operator words like "from among their bretheren like unto thee" when God was talking to the Jews - otherwise the text is open to all kinds of strange and heretical interpretations from dubious sources - Christians understand this.

oh ok.. its a 'nothing to do with me' now.. must admit uve changed ur tune since the last time new yorks presbytarian child abuse was mentioned.. u were talking about suing em last time.

yeh it makes me think, to summerise it talks about imposters.. i.e. Dajjals.

sure he sent a whole loada prophets from their bretheren,.. im not sure about the methods.. did He(God) put words into the mouth of other prophets like our beloved prophet Muhammad s.a.w?

according to presbies is Jesus God? or the Son of God? or is it a paradox which can only be understood by those who have been touched by the spirit?

"khan" wrote:

oh ok.. its a 'nothing to do with me' now.. must admit uve changed ur tune since the last time new yorks presbytarian child abuse was mentioned.. u were talking about suing em last time.

Have I?

[url=http://therevival.proboards18.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general... Forums[/url]

Really I am not seeing much of a difference in my position.. it's bad - they aren't Presbyterians.

But i'm so glad you read my last post on the old forum!!

I was so very concerned when you said that obviously inflamatory remark earlier

Quote:

did u guys ever get around to suing the presbyterians who were forceably using deprived kids as guinea pigs for drugs tests?

that I just naturally assumed you had missed that very important last point I had made!

But now it seems you had merely forgotten - it happens.

lol and no sick I said I wish the New York Presbytery (that's the unaffiliated church) should sue [u]for using the name[/u]. However as I just explained to you above (and i'm sure you read real careful this time) they would have no rights to.

"khan" wrote:

yeh it makes me think, to summerise it talks about imposters.. i.e. Dajjals.

sure he sent a whole loada prophets from their bretheren,.. im not sure about the methods.. did he put words into the mouth of other prophets like our beloved prophet Muhammad s.a.w?

lol see khan that's the difference - we don't like to "summarize" very important matters written in the Bible since in summation one can lose important details (like the details you accidentally left out about raising of a prophet).

Just like you mistakenly believed that passage describing how God raises up a Prophet among their bretheren like unto them was:

Quote:

awfully similar to how the revelations were sent to our beloved prophet Muhammad

Because you accidentally forgot the "like unto thee (the jews)" part.

From the Old Testament all we know is that Prophets were sent to the Jews because of their Covenant. All we are told in the years of our lord is that there will be false prophets and Christs and they will do great things and fool many - including the elect.

Such is the text.

Could that mean there will be other prophets from different nations that are not false? It doesn't say that does it?

Does it?

"khan" wrote:

according to presbies is Jesus God? or the Son of God? or is it a paradox which can only be understood by those who have been touched by the spirit?

Jesus is the Son of God, Part of God, touched by the Spirit of God, filled with the Spirit of God, a Prophet of God, the Messiah of God, the Son of Man, the Son of the Father, the Lamb, the Lion, the Judge - and we believe he is all those things.

That's what's written - it's pretty simple for us Christians, if that's what it says that's what it says.

We don't fully understand the divine mystery about how one person can be all of the above - it wasn't fully revealed to us.

We have our doctrines to explain it but they are only as valid as they are grounded in scripture - take the trinity grounded in the description of the Godhead, the oneness of the Father Son and Holy Spirit (not Mary :wink:) as i'm sure you read from my response to this "Spooky" fellow.

But what we are sure of is that we cannot embrace just one of those many titles above. We cannot say he was filled with the spirit of God - and that's it (ignoring everything else) nor can we say he was God on earth - and thats it - ignoring everything else.

He's all the above! - As the Bible tells us.

Presbyterians like any other mainstream branch of Christianity believes this.

Anyway I am very happy to talk about our Lord and Savior however I have been reserved for the weekend and will have to pick this up late Sunday or Monday.

Have a nice weekend though!

oh ok?

just before i go home, thought i'd add another few question for the Christians.. Do the Christians expect other prophets to come after Jesus a.s? or just his second coming? or is it not documented?

"khan" wrote:

oh ok?

just before i go home, thought i'd add another few question for the Christians.. Do the Christians expect other prophets to come after Jesus a.s? or just his second coming? or is it not documented?

From the passages I have read there is nothing that indicates there will be other prophets or messiahs between Jesus and the Second coming.

That's not saying it's not possible - we know there will be false ones.

Have a nice trip home.

so erm..

John 16:13 (21st Century King James Version)

However when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak from Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak; and He will show you things to come.

edit and..

John 14:16 (21st Century King James Version)

And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever"

"khan" wrote:

so erm..

John 16:13 (21st Century King James Version)

However when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak from Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak; and He will show you things to come.

edit and..

John 14:16 (21st Century King James Version)

And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever"

Wow what a weekend!

Okay,

There are two things wrong with your implied interpretation of those scriptures.

The first is that you are straying from the words of the text - Jesus said he would call for a "Spirit" - not a man. The "Spirit of Truth" specifically. Also this comforter (in the second verse) will be with them for eternity - which a man certainly cannot do.

Also bare in mind that he is talking to his disciples directly - not to the audience as it were.

The second thing that is wrong is you are looking at them outside of context.

Chapter 16 of John Verses 5-16 titled "The Work of the [u]Holy Spirit[/u]"

Quote:

The Work of the Holy Spirit
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=16&version=31

In context it's clear to any reader that Jesus is talking directly to the disciples and is promising to send the Holy Spirit (third part of the trinity) down to them so that they will know they are not without him.

Also interestingly enough if you take a look at 15 onward there is further proof of Jesus divinity and oneness with the father.

And the second verse you mentioned John 14:16 although suggestive of another messenger (since this time the word is counselor and not spirit) when taken out of context - IN context is a very different picture

John 14:15-31 titled "Jesus Promises the [u]Holy Spirit[/u]"

Quote:

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
"Come now; let us leave.

To drive my point home lets focus on the lines specifically dedicated to this counselor.

Quote:

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Now you really gotta ask yourself here - is Muhammad - or for that matter any prophet

1. A spirit
2. Unaccepted because he [u]cannot[/u] (as opposed to is not) be [u]seen[/u] or [u]known[/u]
3. Living within people

You can't get creative with the words, the text is very clear - if not by the title alone - that Jesus is sending the Holy Spirit to the disciples once he is gone.

And sure enough in Chapter 2 of Acts "The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost" we find Jesus sending the (very frightened) apostles the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"

13Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine."

Salam

"stmark" wrote:

Islam is only 1400 years old or do you believe jesus was a muslim? People on other forums say all the prophets were muslims.

Islam is not 1400 years old. It is about 140 000 years old.

All of God's Prophets taught the same thing. Alter it and call it what you will.

Omrow

Salaam all,
Ramadan Mubarak.

A Christian who has studied the Bible would be proud to admit that the prophecy made by prophet Moses for the coming of "a Prophet like me" (Deut. 18:15), undoubtedly refers to the coming of Jesus Christ, since Jesus himself had acknowledged before Jews; "Moses wrote of me." (see John 5:46). These learned Christians have no problem in admitting the fact that Jesus was "a prophet like his predecessor Moses".

NB: "paraclete," which is a Greek term for an advocate, a legal counselor in court. many also translate it as 'Spirit of truth'.

Quote:

Jesus said he would call for a "Spirit" - not a man.

In his Epistle quoted below, apostle John records that Jesus was "a Paraclete".
"My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have a Paraclete with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John. 2:1

John has also recorded in his Gospel 14:16, quoted below, that Jesus (after his departure) will [b]pray to the God[/b], and the God will give us "another Paraclete". This opens up a way for a future date male Prophet to be "a Paraclete", as well. To say: only a "Spirit" can be a Paraclete and not a male individual, would be to deny: "Jesus was a Prophet and a Paraclete".

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you into the age (to come)." John 14:16

Quote:

The "Spirit of Truth" specifically. Also this comforter (in the second verse) will be with them for eternity - which a man certainly cannot do.

Note: We often read the above verse ending as; "for ever". The fact of the matter is; "into the age" is the literal translation of the original Greek phrase; 'eis ton aiona'.

In the next verse, i.e. 14:17, John records, "another Paraclete" is the "Spirit of Truth" (not the Holy Spirit). WHAT WILL "HE" DO?
Jesus Christ did indicate that the Paraclete will do certain things in his time. Let us examine if "he", Prophet Muhammad, did those things.

16:13However when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak from Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak; and He will show you things to come.

16:14He shall glorify Me,
(The Qur'an glorifies the birth of Jesus through Virgin Mary. It confirms; Jesus was a Messiah, a Messenger of God, the Spirit from God, the Word of God and the Righteous Prophet.)

16:15 for He shall receive of Mine, and shall show it unto you.
Note: Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did declare himself a Messenger/Prophet of God like Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

14:26But the Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things
Note: The Qur'an teaches a way of life. It guides mankind, how to live a pious life socially, politically and spiritually.

14:26 and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Note: The Qur'an speaks about the teachings of Jesus and even quotes him.

15:26"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth who proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me.

Note: The Qur'an attests the miracles performed by Jesus the Messiah. It also mentions one astonishing miracle performed by Jesus that the Gospel writers have not recorded (V:110). The Qur'an acknowledges that these miracles and signs were performed with the leave of Allah, by His righteous Servant and Messiah, Jesus. The same is also attested in the Book of Acts 2:22; 3:13.

Is it possible that the numerous prophecies cited here are all individually and combined out of context misinterpretations? Is the opposite true, that such infrequently studied verses fit together consistently and clearly point to the advent of the man who changed the course of human history, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Is it reasonable to conclude that all these prophecies, appearing in different books of the Bible and spoken by various prophets at different times were all coincidence? If this is so here is another strange "coincidence"!

One of the signs of the prophet to come from Paran (Mecca) is that he will come with "ten thousands of saints" (Deuteronomy 33:2). That was the number of faithful who accompanied Prophet Muhammad to Paran (Mecca) in his victorious, bloodless return to his birthplace to destroy the remaining symbols of idolatry in the Ka'bah.