malik, have you been living in a cave or something? of course their are racist muslims. pakistani muslims, somali and arabs have reg fights at college, even in ramdan! :shock: and i'm sure there have been white males attacked by muslims.

"laila" wrote:

if the world was devoid of white supremacy then there would be no harm in white empowering groups.

Theres always harm from any racial empowering groups, these groups can incite hatred.

"laila" wrote:

in other words the race already in power and which controls the world has no need for pressure groups

That is not true, it would be aided by pressure groups and can use this as a propaganda tool or a way to fight other pressure groups.

Most Mosques (in UK) are segregated on lines of race which suggests that there is more racism here that we might like to admit.

"latifah" wrote:

Most Mosques (in UK) are segregated on lines of race which suggests that there is more racism here that we might like to admit.

which mosques do you go to?

i've never been to a single race mosque.

sure, the owners/imams may be from different countries, but the congregation is always the local residents who are all different colours.

If you live in an area that only has people of the same race, then it may be different, but I'm sure noone's ever been turned away from a mosque because of their colour.

I live in west London where many different Muslim communities live close to each other, yet the congregations are probably close to 95% from one ethnic group in most of the Mosques. I don’t see that many Somalis in Turkish Mosques etc. It can’t be simply a matter of language, even the kids at school don’t mix with each other much.

Yaqub, you read your salaah mainly in central london - in the central mosque where people of all races and cultures are present.

If you come to the east, west, south and even the north, you'll see congregations which mostly are 99% from one ethnic group.

In fact, you can see for yourself when you come to the comedy event in East London.

our masjid is full of pakis, round the corner there is a bengali one, other areas you have masjids full of arabs and then you have somali. but there are a few which are mixed. i dont think its done on purpose, the imams of them masjids deliver the khutaba in their mother tonguge and the ones which are mixed the khutaba and classes are led in english.

I got friendly with an Egyptian brother when I was in Mecca. He said that it felt so wonderful for him praying in such a mixed group, standing with a white British guy next to him on one side, a Malaysian on the other, in front of him Yeminis and Syrians, and Nigerians behind him. He said that in his home (Alexandria), everyone always lines up and its all Egyptians, and it can feel a bit 'lonely'. But in felt really liberating because it was new to him.

I explained that I didn't really appreciate it cos I get that here. all the time

But I don't think having mosques that are 'culturally specific' is necessarily a bad thing. I'd say about 99% of mosques make anyone who chooses to attend feel welcome.

Some of my friends and I went to a Turkish mosque in north London. It is a Turkish area and everyone there was Turkish apart from our group. But after the Salah did they ignore us? Not in the least! They offered us traditional Turkish coffee and spoke with us for ages.

Its natural for groups who have migrated from another country to want a space that feels like 'home'. Its different for us cos we were (I think) all born here (or at least grew up here).

If I migrated to somewhere, I would love to be able to experience a 'British atmosphere' so I didn't get homesick. It doesn't mean I'd want to distance myself from other people.

The mosque next to my work is Bengali, because lots of Bengalis live nearby. But people from all backgrounds come for zhur, cos many different people work in the area.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist at all, but I think there is a big difference between migrant communities grouping together and the kind of black/white/greek/russian divide that occurs between different Christian churches.

I think for a person who doesnt speak the langauge of the congregation, Imam or understand the programme or have a taste for the food...it is possible to feel left out. Maybe thats why unofficially Mosques are segregated according to ethnicities.

I, for one wouldnt attend a Msoque if I didnt understand what was going on.

"MuslimSister" wrote:

I think for a person who doesnt speak the langauge of the congregation, Imam or understand the programme or have a taste for the food...it is possible to feel left out. Maybe thats why unofficially Mosques are segregated according to ethnicities.

I, for one wouldnt attend a Msoque if I didnt understand what was going on.

but if you take it to the other extreme:

if all the mosques tried to cater for everybody then they would end up helping no one at all.

I realise that in London it is easy, because there are over 300 mosques to choose from, and in smaller towns there is less choice.

I think the least that every Mosque can/should do is deliver every khutbah in English - as thats the language most of us know.

"MuslimSister" wrote:

I think the least that every Mosque can/should do is deliver every khutbah in English - as thats the language most of us know.

i agree, except that seems unfair for people who've just come over here from abroad. Even signs in public buildings (hospitals/ council buildings etc) have translations in Urdu, Arabic, Polish, Spanish.....

The mosque I visited in Granada in Spain did it perfectly IMO.

Most Muslims there are of Moroccan descent but their kids have grown up with Spanish as their 1st language. First the Imam gave the khutbah in Arabic then, after the jumah salat, [b]one of his assistants ( a NATIVE Spanish speaker)[/b] related the whole khutbah to people who wanted to stay.

It was certainly an improvement to what you often get here: the [b]Imam himself[/b] reads a translation of his sermon in a very broken and disjointed manor (because English does not come naturally to them), which is EXTREMELY uninspiring and boring.

It also helped that the mosque looked like this:
[url=http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/6992551c15.jpg][img]http://img2...

and the view from it was this:
[url=http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/4e9195532f.jpg][img]http://img2...

and here's another pic I like, just to show off:
[url=http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/424c373c89.jpg][img]http://img2...

[b]EDIT BY ADMIN[/b] - changed images to thumbnails with link to larger file. Click on the images to see full size.

Nice pics but please make them smaller

subhanAllah thats beautiful. I always thought Spain was full of semi naked men and women sun bathing on the beach.

If you saw how our mosque was when i was younger you would be in shock, the racial abuse by some of the teachers was a joke. Its like something out of a comiv book during the time of namaz they preach about islam but as soon as they are teaching the race kicks in. How can you go around preaching, then chuck abuse at a kid who cant say anything in case he is beaten up, its an absolute joke but im told it has changed.

"Naz" wrote:

subhanAllah thats beautiful. I always thought Spain was full of semi naked men and women sun bathing on the beach.

lol... and why would you think that??

Assallamu Allaikum,

Malik,

Quote:

I think that if they were indeed Muslims then you were not abused for your colour or race. Maybe you insulted Islam or Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). This tends to make us mad you know.

A quote like that is a little presumptuous of you. These people were only too pleased to tell me that they were Muslim and proud. And then filled the air with all kinds on profanity, much of it aimed directly at my skin colour.

And I would never insult the prophet (peace be upon him), nor Islam they assumed that because I was white, much the same as you appear to have done, that I must be racist and additionally shouldn't be in "there" area. It is in my mind much more a serious issue that you as a Muslim would presume to know my political, racial background and way of thinking and cast your aspersions.

Wassallam,

Not at all my friend.

All I am saying is that Muslims are never racist. They can't be. Allah forbids it totally. It is haraam for a Muslims to judge people on colour of their skin or on their ethnic origins. We love all people of whatever colour or race. It is only Kaafirs who have racist among them. Just look around and you will see how much so called democratic and liberal kaafir countries still have problem with racism in their societies.

What those boys did to you was most probably a retaliation. They saw your action as a provocation. After all, you were on their turf without their consent. They assumed you were a Kaafir and a racist.
That is why they probably called you a "white racist pig", if that is what they called you. You are not telling us what actually happened, so I am left to imagine the incident.
If I went to the Land of Satan (that is America in case you didn't know) - without Satan's permission, they would likely throw me in jail and forget about me. I would not call that racism. I would be my fault to break Satanic laws while I am in his hellish territory.

malik, it is nice of you to make excuses but of course it is nonsense to suggest that only non-Muslims are racist and that Muslims never are, except of course by the principle that if a Muslim breaks a law he is considered a kafir. As well as being very familiar with tirades against kafirs and the casual use of the word whites when slagging off non-Muslim societies, we know from reports of life in Muslim lands that many Muslims are conscious of race and not politically correct about it.

Assallamu Allaikum,
Peace,
Malik,

Quote:

Not at all my friend.
All I am saying is that Muslims are never racist.

That is total nonsense racism is is a state of mind, a learned behaviour, there is not a "religious" cop out for that belief. You cannot possibly say that no Muslims are racist per say, you could say that Muslims should not be racist.

Quote:

What those boys did to you was most probably a retaliation. They saw your action as a provocation.

What those "boys" did was blatant race fuelled aggression by being on "their" turf as you put it which by the way was a public street in Birmingham is no justification for the the abuse that was flung at me. Incidentally I was there to visit a brother (in Islam).

Quote:

After all, you were on their turf without their consent. They assumed you were a Kaafir and a racist.

Their turf? It was a public street I hadn't broken into their homes, I didn't realise that I needed permission to walk along a street.

Quote:

That is why they probably called you a "white racist pig", if that is what they called you. You are not telling us what actually happened, so I am left to imagine the incident.

They used much more disgusting language than that the "f" word quite a lot the "b" word a little less. As I mentioned I had walked about 50 yards from my car to the house that I was visiting and actually as I normally do made no comments or even made eye contact with them. The tirade started before I had even reached them.
I fear that you suppose so much that your judgement is clouded by your ignorance. It is impossible to defend on the grounds of religion the mindless rantings of some that profess religious sanctity but damage there faith with mindless actions.

Wassallam

"malik" wrote:

All I am saying is that Muslims are never racist. They can't be. Allah forbids it totally.

Just because Allah (swt) has forbidden something doesnt mean that Muslims will always obeys the rules. We humans (Muslims and non Muslims) unlike God are fallible.

"Confo" wrote:

What those "boys" did was blatant race fuelled aggression by being on "their" turf as you put it which by the way was a public street in Birmingham is no justification for the the abuse that was flung at me. Incidentally I was there to visit a brother (in Islam).

I can understaind that you do not recognise the concept of turf. I can assure you it is quite a real conept and it is heavely practised in our world.

If you step, without consent, on the territory owned by a gang, then you are asking for trouble. Here, I can tell you that same goes for armies. If they invade the turf of other people, then according to international law, they are going to have to suffer abuse and resistence and all manner of retaliatory feedback. You would never declare that racism would you? No one would. That is because they provoked someone else's sensibilities.

Racism is evil and it has nothing to do with Muslims. Only Kaafirs are racist. No Muslim can ever be racist towards anyone. Allah has totally forbidden all forms of racism. Therefore, All Muslims are racism-free.

"malik" wrote:

I can understaind that you do not recognise the concept of turf. I can assure you it is quite a real conept and it is heavely practised in our world.

If you step, without consent, on the territory owned by a gang, then you are asking for trouble.

So Malik,

1. Could me and the guy from next door stand on the corner of our street in Smethwick and claim everything within a ten metre radius as "our territory"?

2. What rights would we be able to enforce within "our territory"?

3. Could we stop people from coming into "our territory"?

4. If someone stepped into "our territory" what measures could we take to defend "our territory"?

5. What authority, if any, would West Midlands Police have in "our territory"?

Brother me and you both know how gangs basically work.
What they do is they claim an area in which they will rule as a gang. For the outsiders they clearly mark this territory as their turf. This is so that anyone who is not their member knows the boundries and, therefore, cannot claim ignorance if he steps inside this area. Other gangs would have to respect this territory. They have their own turf clearly defined. If someone enters the turf by mistake, then they either have to pay a toll, or, suffer a bit of grief, as our bro confo did, or, if entry was deliberate, pay a far heavier penalty.

"malik" wrote:

Brother me and you both know how gangs basically work.
What they do is they claim an area in which they will rule as a gang. For the outsiders they clearly mark this territory as their turf. This is so that anyone who is not their member knows the boundries and, therefore, cannot claim ignorance if he steps inside this area. Other gangs would have to respect this territory. They have their own turf clearly defined. If someone enters the turf by mistake, then they either have to pay a toll, or, suffer a bit of grief, as our bro confo did, or, if entry was deliberate, pay a far heavier penalty.

Why would anyone respect teritorial boundaries as defined by criminal gangs?

If anyone walks into such "territories" they are themselves doing no wrong. It is the gang members who are in the wrong.

This raises another point. Why would Muslims, who are according to you not racist, belong to criminal gangs? Why would Muslims go around enforcing vigilante laws?

Malik, is there anything racist about calling a whole country, and everyone from that country, 'the Great Satan' ?

"Ya'qub" wrote:

Malik, is there anything racist about calling a whole country, and everyone from that country, 'the Great Satan' ?

No. We as Muslims do not hate Satan because of his colour of his skin, or because of hs orgins. We dont like him because he continues to guide people like George Bush.
I do not hate any American brother or sister, even if he or she is not a Muslim. I admire them actually. They are more honest people than Wahabis. Its only their US government that is based on satanic ways that is disliked. You may know that America is not considered Satanic only by Muslims. If you look at polls they reveal that most European also hate the 'the Great Satan'.
The leader of the Satanic nation is labelled "World's No 1 Terrorist". You might have seen this at anti-war rallies. This is not racism. It is being honest about kaafirs' racists policies.

malik,

A suggestion: be specific. If you describe the offending policies as kafir policies you cause problems in your case. Whereas you could refer to "Bush's racist policies" or even "America's racist policies", especially having said you admire the average American, and that would be specific, even if it may not be correct. It is if you are not specific that you give offense and seem unconcerned with honesty - like if a Muslim upsets me and I go ranting about Muslims, the problem is that I have generalised the subject of my frustration, and I could make a lot of enemies that way, and so could you. Just to massage that example a little: would it make any difference if in the middle of my racist tirade I threw in a line about actually quite respecting Muslims because at least you know where you stand with them, or somesuch? Or would that actually be damning proof of racism?

The problem is you imply a false dichotomy, and you also did this earlier in the thread. That dichotomy is the same as underlies all racism and discrimination: we who are always right, and the rest of them. Yet you argue that Muslims are incapable of racism.

So as a generalised slur it is certainly very similar to racism, and you would look like an idiot, like someone who says "I got no problem with the towelheads" or a similar contradictory statement. This is something really clear to all who read the thread, I contend, but I'm not convinced you are doing it on purpose and I hope my pointing it out is helpful to you.

As you respect blunt honesty: if you don't mean to go about giving offense and stirring up trouble between Muslims and non-Muslims, I appeal to you seriously and in good faith to consider if maybe you have an arrogant view of others, or if it may seem so, and adjust your language and perhaps even your opinions accordingly. I hope you will see sense in my suggestions.

Assallamu Allaikum,

Malik,

I can only assume that your defense of such moronic behaviour stems from your lack impartiality.

Quote:

I can understaind that you do not recognise the concept of turf. I can assure you it is quite a real conept and it is heavely practised in our world.

You are so presumptuous it beguiles and frustrates me. I am a "Youth worker" in inner city Birmingham and have been for 12 years I have worked in Handsworth, Ladywood, Lozells, Bordesley Green, Small Heath and Aston. I understand far better than you that "turf" exists. These guys were sitting on what I assume was one of the walls of their families homes. I thought that this world "belonged" to Allah (swt) how do they as Muslims then have the right to claim a public path as theirs? It was not about me being on their "turf" so much as the fact that I was white. Why do you find that so hard to understand.

Quote:

Racism is evil and it has nothing to do with Muslims. Only Kaafirs are racist. No Muslim can ever be racist towards anyone. Allah has totally forbidden all forms of racism. Therefore, All Muslims are racism-free.

You really do miss the point ANYONE regardless of their religion can be racist. Muslims are not void of imperfections if you ASSUME that then you are ignoring what the Qur'an warns us against, in terms of our imperfections.
Allah has also forbidden us from drinking alcohol, having pre-marital sex, beating women and having affairs, are you saying that that doesn't happen either?

My brother you shouldn't defend the indefensible.

Beast you live in Smethwick? So do I. Small world.

Wassallam.

"Confo" wrote:

Beast you live in Smethwick? So do I. Small world.

Cape Hill representing