"terrorist" compared to William Wallace

This article is by members of the US military regarding Shamil Basayev.

This guys is meant to be one of the biggest terrorists in the world and he is admired members of the US military! Biggrin

He's even compared to William Wallace from Braveheart
Lol

Needless to say the Yanks have sinced changed their tune. :roll:

Quote:
The Russian failure is due to a number of factors, not least of which has been the courageous leadership of a handful of Chechen leaders. As the US discovered in Somalia, so the Russians have learned that conventional military prowess is no match against rebel forces, led by skilled and committed leaders. [b]This study will examine how one of the Chechen rebel leaders, Shamil Basayev, was able to bring the goliath of Russian armed forces to its knees. [/b]
Chechnya these days is a place where little boys barely old enough to talk tell strangers their name is Shamil Basayev--a guerrilla commander whom Moscow has considered a leading international terrorist since he led a mass hostage-taking in June 1995.2

[b]Though highly improbable, one wonders if Shamil Basayev ever saw the movie Braveheart. The movie portrays William Wallace, and his attempt to lead his undermanned and poorly equipped Scottish army, in their fight for independence against the more powerful England. During the past two years, Shamil Basayev and a few thousand Chechen combatants have largely defeated the much larger and better equipped Russian military. [/b]

Though final determination of Chechnya's political status has been postponed for five years, for all practical purposes the Chechens have (for the time being, at least) won their independence. This article will examine Shamil Basayev and the role he played in gaining Chechen freedom.

Full article:

I should report Major Finch.

May Allah preserve Brother Shaamil and the Brothers elsewhere in places such as Khurasaan - especially Brothers Dr. Ayman and Osamah and all those Brethren in faith worldwide whose goal is to crush the head of the Crusader Coalition - America - and may Allah rain more dark days on it like 9-11.

Why are you in favour of innocents being killed?

I understand the symbolism to strike the enemy, but why kill civillians? Are these people too cowardly to fight a military force?

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

I doubt you'll be getting a response Admin.

He seems like a real hero who has stood up for what is right and his and his peoples human rights. Rights to a life which Allah granted them and no one has the right to take that away only Allah does.
Allah has said the ones who oppress you and take away youre basic Islamic and Human rights fight them and i will be youre hands and feet which you use to fight them with.

Russia as a country and people have always strived to dominate the world hence the USSR which was a symbol to illegally occupy and opress its neighbours through brutal warfare and sufferings.

They tried it with many former 'USSR' occupied countries ranging from muslim countries such as Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgystan, Azerbaijan, Armenia and even tried occupying Afghanistan (thats where they failed).

They even illegally ocupied many christian and western countries such as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, Geogia.

Islam is the Key to paradise but without practice it won't open the gates.

But two wrongs do not make a right.

He (or those he commands) have made some unsavoury decisions which detract from the whole issue.

instead of uniting the world in support of a righteous cause, iot causes us all to splinter.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

"kas" wrote:
He seems like a real hero who has stood up for what is right and his and his peoples human rights. Rights to a life which Allah granted them and no one has the right to take that away only Allah does.
Allah has said the ones who oppress you and take away youre basic Islamic and Human rights fight them and i will be youre hands and feet which you use to fight them with.

Russia as a country and people have always strived to dominate the world hence the USSR which was a symbol to illegally occupy and opress its neighbours through brutal warfare and sufferings.

They tried it with many former 'USSR' occupied countries ranging from muslim countries such as Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgystan, Azerbaijan, Armenia and even tried occupying Afghanistan (thats where they failed).

They even illegally ocupied many christian and western countries such as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, Geogia.

Good Post.

The thing about many Muslim minorities that dot the 'Russian' landscape is that we had to endure centuries -- not years -- of continuous Russian domination and subjugation.

Thousands upon thousands were deported by Stalin, to Siberia, under his "divide and rule" plan.

Thousands of Muslims [I'm talking close to a million] were forced to convert, against their will.

Many of their beautiful Masjids were burnt to the ground, Qur'ans burnt and our Mullahs [and Mo'alims] were killed.

My friends grandparents had to learn, then teach Islam underground, as did I'm sure, thousands of their forefathers.

Despite this, Muslims throughout Central Asia and the former Soviet Union still held on to the rope of Allah swt, and still identify themselves as Muslims though they may not have been, nor are, practicing their Islam as they should be.

Read this: Russian Nightmare is coming true SmileSmileSmile

Quote:
First two bitter wars in Chechnya. Then a savage massacre in Beslan. Now Russia's nightmare is coming true: an explosion of Islamic militancy across an entire region

Nick Paton Walsh
Wednesday November 30, 2005
The Guardian

Raya holds photos of her son Vyacheslav. Photograph: Nick Paton Walsh

The film is shaky, its pixillated frames jarring as it scans across the contents of the makeshift morgue. A leg, a dark mound of pubic hair, a heavily burned head, a broad chest that must for years have seemed invulnerable. About 60 bodies are heaped without decency or clothing on the floor of the refrigerated wagon, their blank faces caught by the mobile phone's camera.

"It looks like something from Treblinka," says Raya, whose son Vyacheslav, 30, a former Russian special forces soldier, lies among the dead. "I looked for him for a week before I found him there."

Yet the authorities say these are not the bodies of victims but of "terrorists", some of at least 92 men shot dead by special forces when they staged one of the biggest uprisings in Russia since the second Chechen war in 1999. On October 13, about 200 men in the sleepy southern spa town of Nalchik staged simultaneously eight armed attacks on police stations, the headquarters of the security and prison services.

The attacks failed spectacularly. Groups of about eight to 10 men, many from the town's educated, young middle classes, appeared hopelessly ill-trained to face Russia's souped-up special forces. One witness who watched the storming of the security services building recalls hearing them shouting frantically at each other: "How do you reload a grenade launcher?"

Officials say that the attacks began when police unearthed an arms dump meant to supply a larger uprising in early November, and the militants decided to go for broke, summoned by just a phone call from the underground Islamic groups that they had joined.

Police responded with brutal efficiency and the insurgency was over within hours. In total, officials said, 33 police and 12 civilians died, far fewer casualties than after previous attacks by Islamic militants in the region. But the violence had one undeniable consequence: Russia had lost the control and the cooperation of yet another town in the troubled north Caucasus.

In mid-2002, when I first came to the region, extremist and separatist violence was limited to the grey ruins of Chechnya, crippled by two separatist wars in the 90s. But by 2003, the violence had begun to spread to neighbouring Ingushetia, then further west to the tiny town of Beslan in September last year. By the end of this year, months of violence in Dagestan, to Chechnya's east, and the Nalchik attacks in the previously dozy republic of Kabardino-Balkaria, proved conclusively that the Kremlin had failed to keep a lid on the violent radicalisation of an entire region. Moscow may blame foreign fundamentalism for infecting its southern flank, but it is clear that Europe now has its own indigenous Islamist movement with militant teeth, what one analyst close to the Putin administration has called a "Russian Hamas". Extremists within the movement advocate establishing by force an Islamist caliphate across the north Caucasus.

Last Sunday, Russia attempted to complete the political solution it has imposed on the republic by holding parliamentary elections, a final bid to convince the outside world that the conflict is ebbing rather than intensifying. Ahead of the vote, I travelled from Nalchik in the republic of Kabardino-Balkaria through five other republics to see how and why Islamic radicalism began to captivate the north Caucasus.

The growing power of the jamaats

The bodies of the dead of Nalchik will not be returned to their relatives. Russian anti-terrorist laws forbid it, but critics say the move is designed to thwart the Muslim imperative to bury the dead within 24 hours.

Raya's son Vyacheslav had wanted to be a policeman when he left the elite Russian special forces. "He tried to join, but I did not have the money to pay the bribe needed to get a job there," she says. "Nobody needs people like him, who don't smoke, drink or pay bribes. All he wanted to do was live cleanly and honestly." She says her son joined a local "jamaat", or council, a strict Islamic group which claims to offer an alternative system of justice to the corruption of the local authorities.

Raya's membership of the jamaat and regular attendance at a mosque attracted the attention of the local police, says his mother. He was arrested twice, she says, once as he left prayer. "They beat him, once on the kidneys so badly that he could not work [as a builder] for a week. After you go through that, you are ready to do anything."

Tales of police abuse are echoed by others. Fatima Mamayeva's husband, Timur, is now on a police wanted list for suspected involvement in the uprising; earlier this year, he was arrested and heavily beaten four times. "They put a plastic bag over his head to partially suffocate him." She says police recently joked to her that she will have to take revenge as a "shakhidka", or female suicide bomber.

Another suspect is Rasul Kudayev, a former wrestling champion whom the Russian authorities cite as proof of the international connection to the militants. Kudayev was arrested in Afghanistan by US troops in 2001 and held in Guantánamo Bay. In May 2004, he returned home to Nalchik, telling his family he had been given mysterious coloured pills and subjected to extreme temperatures, irritant gels and stress positions. He told them that local police continued to harass him for months and then accused him of attacking a police checkpoint on October 13. They arrested him 10 days later. His lawyer, Irina Komissarova, says that when she saw him on October 26 he had to be carried into the room and had clearly been beaten.

One woman, Ira, had two sons who died in the arrests, Rustam, 25, and Ansur, 21. She says they were both graduates with no history of arrest. "If they are guilty, then they are guilty, but how can they be terrorists? They attacked government buildings and police."

The mobile phone film of the morgue is circulating, and fuelling their anger. "What do you think is going to happen next if we can't get the bodies?" says Rustam, hinting at further insurrection. "What would you want to do?"

Poverty and religion

Moscow's bid to master the predominantly Muslim Caucasus is a centuries-old and turbulent enterprise, born in tsarist times of an imperial need to "civilise" a neighbouring people. But since the fall of the proudly secular Soviet Union, corrupt local government and intense poverty have been the catalyst of an Islamic revival in the north Caucasus.

The Kremlin has often played down social decline in this tinderbox region. But in June this year, Putin's envoy to the north Caucasus, Dmitri Kozak, wrote a report for his boss that said intense local corruption, unemployment and police abuses were bolstering the role "extremist groups" and "Sharia enclaves" were playing in the region. Poverty hasn't helped; over the past three years, the United Nations Development Programme in Moscow has noted, living standards have risen across Russia but remained the same in the north Caucasus. In this climate, anger has grown, and the response from Moscow has been brutal, the practical application of Putin's famous promise to "kill the terrorists in the outhouse". All of which has made the Islamist alternative appear more attractive.

Rasul is a senior figure in the Kabardino-Balkaria jamaat. Young, well shaven and liberally doused in aftershave, Rasul is the only one of three deputies to the jamaat's head - a fugitive ideologist called Musa Mukhozhev - who is not on the run or believed to be dead.

Rasul spent three and a half years at a retreat in Saudi Arabia, where he learned Arabic. His jamaat, which forms smaller deputy councils in each village, requires that its members go to the mosque as often as possible to pray. "The jamaat is never supposed to do anything against the local government," he says. "We go to the local administration and say that we have a group of young, physically fit volunteers who are ready to help people with any problem." He says the groups, which are often led by a young man rather than a village elder, follow a contemporary take on sharia law that bans drinking and frowns upon smoking and premarital sex. Suspected criminals are called to make amends before their peers and are threatened with expulsion from the jamaat, he says. Would the group ever use violence to further its ends? "Yes. When we have to."

Rasul blames the Nalchik attacks on a months-long crackdown by police against suspected radicals. "They started arresting the youth in the villages," he says. "They were shaving crosses in their heads." He says many were tortured: a 28-year-old had a bottle inserted in his rectum and had to go to hospital to have it removed; people were battered on the kidneys; fingers were slammed in doors. A spokeswoman for the Kabardino-Balkaria police denied all accusations of torture and said such "rumours" are distributed by those interested in "destabilising the republic".

Rasul says most participants in the October 13 violence were "well connected" to local jamaats. "There is not one person who took part in that who was not beaten by the police," he claims. "If the torture continues then it [the conflict] will become more radical. If they keep beating our sisters and parking armoured personnel carriers near our houses, then the 4,800 men left in the jamaats will not listen to Musa [Mukhozhev, their leader]. They will not listen to anyone."

A lockdown now chokes Nalchik. Thousands of Russian troops, drafted in from across Russia's south, stand on street corners and sleep in school gyms, where six-year-olds now go to school next to men with AK47s. One senior Russian ministry of interior officer says: "Chechnya is now in the 10th stage [of insurgency]. They are getting cleverer and cleverer. But this place is in stage one. We have to take hardcore measures; it will die down and we can go home."

Back to Chechnya

To reach Chechnya, I have to pass through the republics of North Ossetia and Ingushetia. The former is home to Beslan, where at least 32 gunmen held a school hostage last September, killing 331, roughly half of whom were children. In 2002, the United Nations rated Ingushetia as the second worst place to live in Russia (after the remote republic of Tyva, just north of Mongolia). Since then it has also begun to resemble a conflict zone. In June last year, militants took over the capital Nazran for a night, killing up to 100 local police.

Chechnya's own capital, Grozny, is a city ground down to a dusty despair. When I arrived, prior to the elections on Sunday, it was under a deep fog. The vote marked an almost surreal attempt to impose some common ground on the warring factions among Chechen society, whose internecine violence is proving such a powerful recruiting tool for Islamic militants. The pro-Kremlin party, United Russia, won nearly two-thirds of the votes, amid widespread accusations of serious electoral fraud.

In March 2003, the Kremlin handed over control of Chechnya to a loyal group of Chechens headed by the mayor of Grozny, Akhmed Kadyrov. Installed as president in October that year, he and his son Ramzan, 28, began buying up an impressive army of former militants and mercenaries that became known as the "Kadyrovtsi" - Kadyrov's people.

The Kremlin gave these pro-Russian Chechens the task of suppressing fellow Chechen separatists and militants, thus turning Chechen against Chechen. The Kadyrovtsi, who quickly earned the Russian military's brutal reputation, have gradually become the republic's new caretakers.

There are now four main groupings among the pro-Russian Chechens, some more orderly than others. On June 4, a unit from one of the battalions carried out an operation on the border between Chechnya and Dagestan. Just after 4pm, 300 masked troops burst into the village of Borozdinovskaya and, in an uncomfortable echo of the Beslan massacre, herded its men into the school, where they were held, say witnesses, for nine hours. Eleven men were led away and have not been heard of since.

It's a familiar equation, one that Zerem, a senior commander in another unit, says makes the militants even more popular. "All the time we are bickering among ourselves, they get stronger and stronger," he says, pointing to a region on a map of Chechnya on the wall of his Grozny office. With his finger he draws an oval around four villages in the south: the volatile Vedeno and Nozhai-Yurt regions. In this region, Zerem says, the militant leader Doha Umarov commands 200 men out of a scattered force of about 3,000 Islamic militants.

Zerem says this year eight men have left his home village to join the Islamists. "The militants are agitating very strongly right now. They have a recruiter in every village. The government is paying no attention to the youth at the moment, and if someone is beaten, let's say by federal troops, he will join the militants to take revenge."

Dagestan

High in the hills of the mountains above the Dagestani capital of Makhachkala, about four hours' drive from Grozny, is the village of Ghimri. A ramshackle tunnel bores through the mountains for the last three miles, leading out on to what seems like a different country, the green star and crescent flags of Islam peppering the unrefined beauty of the landscape.

The local school teaches Arabic, women cover their hair, arms and legs, and in rare cases, their faces. When someone was last caught drinking two years ago, they got 40 lashes. Local criminals are asked to repent before their peers at the local mosque. Most residents claim the village adheres to some form of sharia law; whether it adheres to Russian law is open to question. In May three men shot dead a local police chief who was trying to stop them blowing up the tunnel to the village. They hid in Ghimri, the village refused to give them up and the police dared not enter.

Outside the mosque, Magomed-Ali, 17, says: "We have sharia here. Theft does not occur. People do not drink. Some smoke, but only a bit." The town has its own jamaat that works alongside (some say above) the local administration.

Habib, 27, moved here after finishing his Islamic studies in Syria in 2001. "Each person has their own path and we have ours here," he says. "You know the situation. Our youth talk about jihad. I have my children, my family and we all fulfil what we can of our Islamic obligations."

Habib expresses concern that the federal authorities might move to reassert secular control over the village. "Who wants their home destroyed?" he asks. He is right to be concerned. The town of Karamakhi , a mucky cabbage plantation a few hours drive from Ghimri, renounced Russian rule and declared itself under sharia law in 1998. By September the next year, Putin's military had removed many of the roofs from the village's houses, leaving its 5,000 residents to live among the ruins. According to Ibadullah Mukayev, now the head of the local administration, at least 50 residents were killed. "People saw how bad it was," says Mukayev, "what happened to their homes. If you go against Russia, where do you go?"

But Dagestan retains active, extremist local jamaats. Explosions and gunfights have claimed the lives of police and militants almost every second day since January. In Makhachkala, I am given a propaganda video made by local young "mujahideen" by a militant sympathiser who gives his name only as Abdul. The son of a well-known Islamic ideologist in the region, he begins the now familiar justification. He was himself tortured by the police two years ago, he says. "They picked me up off the street, and knew who I was. They beat me with telephone cables, batons. They put a gas mask on my head and beat my chest. I weighed 70 kilograms when I went in, and 47 when I came out two months later." He lists other torture methods he has heard of: objects violently inserted into the anus, women and children raped in front of male relatives. The Dagestani police deny all allegations of torture.

Like Rasul in Nalchik, Abdul is a meek young man reeking of aftershave. Yet his rhetoric becomes less gentle when he speaks of what should follow. "The reaction of any man to this is to take up arms and get revenge. The jamaat provides a focus for the soul, and our members are not the unemployed or discontented, but the educated and middle class. We have lost 40 Dagestani members of the jamaat so far this year against the police. The aim of the jamaat is to create a united Islamic caliphate in the north Caucasus and live as is written in the Koran. Will the fight be difficult? Yes. It is written that it should be."

Civilian casualties are an "unintentional consequence" of jihad, he says. As we pass a checkpoint, he winds up the window between him and the police officer outside and continues with an ominous confidence.

"No part of this jamaat is underground. We can all go where we want, rent a flat, raise a family, travel to Moscow." He mocks police incompetence: "They do not know who we are." Then he shakes my hand in parting, courteous and demure. "Assalam alaikum," he says. Peace be with you

"(*_Shazan" wrote:
"kas" wrote:
He seems like a real hero who has stood up for what is right and his and his peoples human rights. Rights to a life which Allah granted them and no one has the right to take that away only Allah does.
Allah has said the ones who oppress you and take away youre basic Islamic and Human rights fight them and i will be youre hands and feet which you use to fight them with.

Russia as a country and people have always strived to dominate the world hence the USSR which was a symbol to illegally occupy and opress its neighbours through brutal warfare and sufferings.

They tried it with many former 'USSR' occupied countries ranging from muslim countries such as Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgystan, Azerbaijan, Armenia and even tried occupying Afghanistan (thats where they failed).

They even illegally ocupied many christian and western countries such as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus, Geogia.

Good Post.

The thing about many Muslim minorities that dot the 'Russian' landscape is that we had to endure centuries -- not years -- of continuous Russian domination and subjugation.

Thousands upon thousands were deported by Stalin, to Siberia, under his "divide and rule" plan.

Thousands of Muslims [I'm talking close to a million] were forced to convert, against their will.

Many of their beautiful Masjids were burnt to the ground, Qur'ans burnt and our Mullahs [and Mo'alims] were killed.

My friends grandparents had to learn, then teach Islam underground, as did I'm sure, thousands of their forefathers.

Despite this, Muslims throughout Central Asia and the former Soviet Union still held on to the rope of Allah swt, and still identify themselves as Muslims though they may not have been, nor are, practicing their Islam as they should be.

Read this: Russian Nightmare is coming true SmileSmileSmile

Salaam Shazan

Yes this is very true the muslims did endure a forceful and brutal regime for centuries. But through this struggle it has made them stronger and have united them internally. See when you have a common enemy you forget about petty differences and eliminate them so youre primary goal is to defend youre people as a whole.

See what this brother did Shamil Basayev was nothing but defending him and his people from Brutal occupation. I understand he carried out a few sieges which i think is wrong. But if you look at the desperate situation they are faced with day in day out for aslong as any of us can remember then such incidents can be justified. Aslong as no innocent person is killed, which i believe was not the case.

Shamil Basayev, his family and his people have had a long history of involvement in the Chechen resistance to Russian rule and suffered reprisals in the process. His grandfather fought for the abortive attempt to create a breakaway North Caucasus Emirate after the Russian revolution.

One mans' terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

And the Russians declared a brutal war against the Chechans massacaring many thousands of innocent civilians, children, women, men, old people. They destroyed their homes, businesses and masjids and humiliated them beyond and justifiable reason.

Many men were rounded up and massacred in mass graves, for the people to see on tv, executions and holocausts were taking place when the whole world including so called MUSLIMS and MUSLIM LEADERS did nothing not even supporting them or aiding them.

So who has the blood of Chechans on their hands what kind of Ummah have we become. We are almost 2 billion in number in over 52 nations accross the world with abbundance of wealth and military capabilities at our hands and we did nothing to help our brothers and sisters but turn on the news and agree with the Russians.

Is it then any wonder what Shamil did and is it any wonder what he will carry on doing.

The Russian occupation and massacers have led him to be the man he is.

Islam is the Key to paradise but without practice it won't open the gates.

Salam

Hows it going Shazan? Biggrin Its me Basayev.

Where have you been? Did you get banned from Mpac? I returned 3/4 weeks ago and you werent there.
Barodates left too i think Sad

Quote:
See what this brother did Shamil Basayev was nothing but defending him and his people from Brutal occupation. I understand he carried out a few sieges which i think is wrong. But if you look at the desperate situation they are faced with day in day out for aslong as any of us can remember then such incidents can be justified. Aslong as no innocent person is killed, which i believe was not the case.

I think the seige was a legitimate tactic since it was the hostage-taking seige in the first war that basically was the turning point in the war and lead to the Mujahideen defeating the child-raping scumbag Russian army.

Its a tactic that has worked before so he tried it again in Beslan but unfortunately things went wrong an some children died.

"Vedeno" wrote:
Salam

Hows it going Shazan? Biggrin Its me Basayev.

Where have you been? Did you get banned from Mpac? I returned 3/4 weeks ago and you werent there.
Barodates left too i think Sad

Walakiukm assalaam,

Alhamdulilah and you?- all is well, I was banned from MPAC and barodate left but then he was banned

Welcome to Revival forum – and come back on MD and Ummah!

Truth has come and falsehood shall perish for falsehood by its very nature is doomed to perish.

[i]bet u missed that line folks [/i]:P

Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar

"Med" wrote:
Truth has come and falsehood shall perish for falsehood by its very nature is doomed to perish.

[i]bet u missed that line folks [/i]:P

One distinguishable trait of Kuffir is mixing truth with falsehood.

Nice quote.

"(*_Shazan" wrote:
"Med" wrote:
Truth has come and falsehood shall perish for falsehood by its very nature is doomed to perish.

[i]bet u missed that line folks [/i]:P

One distinguishable trait of Kuffir is mixing truth with falsehood.

Nice quote.

very true.

Ya ALLAH Madad.
Haq Chaar Yaar

Shamil Basayev killed children intentionally. All you seem to be saying Vedeno is that it's okay because it was for a good cause - that's moral whitewashing. "Yea but it worked before" and "it was to get the Russians to stop" is classic ends justify the means Machiavelli.

Your hero killed children, because he lacked honor strength and any semblance of an ethical warrior.

Mods, Admin or Vedeno change the title of this thread immediately, there is a legal disclaimer at the top of the article prohibiting official endorsement of the article or attributing it to the US Military.

[EDIT] Thanks Admin

Just changed it. slightly.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

"Admin" wrote:
Just changed it. slightly.

Change it completely or debate the defense department's lawyers - this thread is outrageous, the united states millitary does not in any way shape or form condone or endorse terrorists. Considering the present political climate their warning has even more gravity.

The only one comparing Shamil to Wallace is Major Finch acting in a non-official capacity. The title can not even imply US military endorsement.

What should I change it to? I think it is pretty clear that it is one man's view. But if there can be a better title, I am open to suggestions.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Lol. Mr Karnage , dont get embarrased (sp?) about members of the US military admiring terrorists!

Quote:
Shamil Basayev killed children intentionally. All you seem to be saying Vedeno is that it's okay because it was for a good cause - that's moral whitewashing. "Yea but it worked before" and "it was to get the Russians to stop" is classic ends justify the means Machiavelli.

Your hero killed children, because he lacked honor strength and any semblance of an ethical warrior.

Gettting your facts mixed up. It was Russians who killed 40,000 children in Chechnya and then 300 more in Beslan.
If the Chechen objective was to blow the place up , they would have when the deadline ran out. The fact is they didnt.

They stayed there and basically said "we're not leaving here until you stop killing our women and children".

If Russia wants to avoid things like Beslan , then all it has to do is observe international law and Basayev would automtically do the same.
As Basayev said , you dont play football with one set of goal posts - and the ball is now in the Russian court.

Basayev has said many times (including before Beslan) that he is willing to observe international law providing the Russian scum do the same - so it is up to Russia.

Quote:
What should I change it to? I think it is pretty clear that it is one man's view. But if there can be a better title, I am open to suggestions.

How about:

US Major compares terrorist to William Wallace.

You all know that William Wallace also killed women and children right?

Not an uncommon practice back then.

[code:1]You all know that William Wallace also killed women and children right? [/code:1]

Are you saying Braveheart was historically inaccurate? Biggrin

Does that mean he didnt shout "freeeeeeeeeeedom" every five miuntes? Cray 2

"Vedeno" wrote:
[code:1]You all know that William Wallace also killed women and children right? [/code:1]

Are you saying Braveheart was historically inaccurate? Biggrin

Does that mean he didnt shout "freeeeeeeeeeedom" every five miuntes? Cray 2

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say he probably didn't even speak English.

I was supporting the English anyway. I was cheering when they killed him. Dont trust men who wear skirts. Wink

"Don Karnage" wrote:
Shamil Basayev killed children intentionally. All you seem to be saying Vedeno is that it's okay because it was for a good cause - that's moral whitewashing. "Yea but it worked before" and "it was to get the Russians to stop" is classic ends justify the means Machiavelli.

Your hero killed children, because he lacked honor strength and any semblance of an ethical warrior.

Mods, Admin or Vedeno change the title of this thread immediately, there is a legal disclaimer at the top of the article prohibiting official endorsement of the article or attributing it to the US Military.

[EDIT] Thanks Admin

yeah just like the american and british army does everyday in Afghanistan, Iraq and probably Iran too.

Who would you consider an ethical warrior then? someone who lets the opressor come in kill their people on a mass scale and humiliate them like they have done.

Don't talk about ethical warrior because you are not in his shoe and you have not seen your race almost being wiped out of existence simply for the fact that they follow Islam.

He fought the aggressor, the opressor and the west only wish they have warriors and soldiers like shamil who protect their people from such an evil regime. Without any pay, military equipment and support like the western armies have that are killing innocent civilians on a massive scale in place like Iraq now, Vietnam in the past and probable Iran tommorrow May Allah protect the innocent INSHALLAH.

Islam is the Key to paradise but without practice it won't open the gates.

"Vedeno" wrote:
Lol. Mr Karnage , dont get embarrased (sp?) about members of the US military admiring terrorists!

It's "embarrassed." And you unbelievably stupid kid it's a policy paper from the 90's that says in very large print at the top "You may not attribute this to the US military," disregarding such a warning means you are commiting libel, which is punished with very real, very heavy fines. You're welcome.

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Gettting your facts mixed up. It was Russians who killed 40,000 children in Chechnya and then 300 more in Beslan.
If the Chechen objective was to blow the place up , they would have when the deadline ran out. The fact is they didnt.

They stayed there and basically said "we're not leaving here until you stop killing our women and children".

If Russia wants to avoid things like Beslan , then all it has to do is observe international law and Basayev would automtically do the same.
As Basayev said , you dont play football with one set of goal posts - and the ball is now in the Russian court.

Basayev has said many times (including before Beslan) that he is willing to observe international law providing the Russian scum do the same - so it is up to Russia.

No, you are deliberately attempting to distort the facts with an alternate reality. Basayev killed children. Generously offering to observe international law after the fact isn't magnanimity, it's barbarism. You don't have a moral ground to stand on if you are saying killing children is situationally acceptable. "It's okay when the chechens do it, but not the Russians" at the end of the day all that matters to you are that chechens are Muslim children and Russians are not.

This makes you dispicable.

I'm so sick of these useless internet jihads and their mental backscratching about "legitimate targets" and "retributive offensives" to defend terrorism. They're all the same shriveled useless braindead socially awkward teenager playing out childish fantasies about Jihads they'll never join. It's like they revel in their social uselessness.

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What should I change it to? I think it is pretty clear that it is one man's view. But if there can be a better title, I am open to suggestions.

How about:

US Major compares terrorist to William Wallace.

[/quote]

What part of "not official policy" do you not understand? Any mention of rank or affiliation to the US armed forces is prohibited as libel.

"kas" wrote:

yeah just like the american and british army does everyday in Afghanistan, Iraq and probably Iran too.

Who would you consider an ethical warrior then? someone who lets the opressor come in kill their people on a mass scale and humiliate them like they have done.

Don't talk about ethical warrior because you are not in his shoe and you have not seen your race almost being wiped out of existence simply for the fact that they follow Islam.

He fought the aggressor, the opressor and the west only wish they have warriors and soldiers like shamil who protect their people from such an evil regime. Without any pay, military equipment and support like the western armies have that are killing innocent civilians on a massive scale in place like Iraq now, Vietnam in the past and probable Iran tommorrow May Allah protect the innocent INSHALLAH.

Where are all these fruitcakes coming from?

They are actually defending Beslan and Shamil... I seriously can't believe this, I mean here I am saying "the Chechens have a right to fight off the Russians" "the russians are child killing psychopaths in Chechnya" and I'm admiring chechen leaders like Maskhadov, but decry ONE truly rotten individual who runs off and does the exact same things the Russians do and the whackjobs work themselves out of the woodwork to defend him?!

Where do these people come from!?

I'd like to introduce you to some of the aggressors and oppressors Shamil fought so valiently at Beslan:

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lol I love this guy he end's his defense of the purpetrator of BESLAN with "may allah protect the innocent" is that some kinda joke or something? - What was it God's day off or something?

That's your hero kas and vedeno. Not that Vedeno is all that bothered by child butchering since "the Russians did it too" and in the end non-muslim children aren't worth anything to him.

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It's "embarrassed." And you unbelievably stupid kid it's a policy paper from the 90's that says in very large print at the top "You may not attribute this to the US military," disregarding such a warning means you are commiting libel, which is punished with very real, very heavy fines. You're welcome.

Guess i better remove the article from all the other forums ive posted it in over the last couple of years, hey? :roll:

Stop making a mountain out of a molehill. The Yank army has got more important things to do than such internet forums for the reprinting of articles - all those nations and people they invade and kill arent gonna die themselves you know!

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No, you are deliberately attempting to distort the facts with an alternate reality. Basayev killed children. Generously offering to observe international law after the fact isn't magnanimity, it's barbarism.

I suggest you dont talk about a topic you seem to nothing about. At least stop making stupid assumptions.
Basayev made the offer to observe international law BEFORE Beslan. About eight onths earlier- not his first offer either.

This shows he wanted to end the slow genocide of his people through "civilised" means. When the offer was rejected he tried a more brutal method.

The ball always was and always will be in Russias court. Obey international law.

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You don't have a moral ground to stand on if you are saying killing children is situationally acceptable. "It's okay when the chechens do it, but not the Russians" at the end of the day all that matters to you are that chechens are Muslim children and Russians are not.

Bit of an idiot aint ya? Where have i said the children dying at Beslan was acceptable? Stop being a fool and try reading post before replying to it. It helps all of us.

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This makes you dispicable.

Not too bright are ya? Try opening a book now and again.

i have to agree with Dave on this one, and no, it didn't take the gory pictures for me to be convinced. i stick with my previous comment - two wrongs don't make a right, no matter how hard that is to accept, it still stands. kas and vedeno: yes, innocent muslims are being killed in chechnya, iraq and elsewhere, but killing non-muslim civilians doesn't bring back our dead. there are clear rules of jihad - women, children and the elderly must not be harmed. you cannot morally justify this.

"Don Karnage" wrote:
lol I love this guy he end's his defense of the purpetrator of BESLAN with "may allah protect the innocent" is that some kinda joke or something? - What was it God's day off or something?
ok i saw that before you edited it but what i was going to say in reply still makes sense: that was uncalled for. kas has only written 1 post on this thread, you're making some assumptions about where he stands on the topic. and you believe in God, yet that comment sounds like something an atheist would say. :?

[size=9]I NEVER WORE IT BECAUSE OF THE TALIBAN, MOTHER. I LIKE THE [b]MODESTY[/b] AND [b]PROTECTION[/b] IT AFFORDS ME FROM THE EYES OF MEN.[/size] [url=, X-Men[/url]

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They are actually defending Beslan and Shamil... I seriously can't believe this, I mean here I am saying "the Chechens have a right to fight off the Russians" "the russians are child killing psychopaths in Chechnya" and I'm admiring chechen leaders like Maskhadov, but decry ONE truly rotten individual who runs off and does the exact same things the Russians do and the whackjobs work themselves out of the woodwork to defend him?!

As ive said to you before , try reading a post before replying , FOR GODS SAKE!

No-one that i know defends Beslan (i do explain what happened though and why)- Shamil himself basaically said that he regretted what happened.

People WILL defend Shamil coz he's the one Chechen that has lead the nation to victory before. The guys a hero in Chechnya for his past military achievements.
His anger at the death of Chechn children made him overstep the mark in Beslan - and he has like a man offered to pay the price and go on trial for what happened when the war is over.
Thats as much as he can do at the moment.

So to sum up , we dont defend Beslan , we do defend Shamil. We accept he made mistakes. We acknowledge and applaud his decision to pay the price for his mistakes. We support all his military operations against soldiers.

One or two mistakes wont make us hate him - regardless of how much you rant and rave.

Have a nice day Mr Karnage.

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i have to agree with Dave on this one, and no, it didn't take the gory pictures for me to be convinced. i stick with my previous comment - two wrongs don't make a right, no matter how hard that is to accept, it still stands. kas and vedeno: yes, innocent muslims are being killed in chechnya, iraq and elsewhere, but killing non-muslim civilians doesn't bring back our dead. there are clear rules of jihad - women, children and the elderly must not be harmed. you cannot morally justify this.

Please read my post Sis.

We dont defend Beslan though i do EXPLAIN what happened.

Shamil made a mistake and he will stand trial for it. Apart from that we continue to support him.

He's very very important to the resistance.

Salam.

"Vedeno" wrote:

Guess i better remove the article from all the other forums ive posted it in over the last couple of years, hey? :roll:

Stop making a mountain out of a molehill. The Yank army has got more important things to do than such internet forums for the reprinting of articles - all those nations and people they invade and kill arent gonna die themselves you know!

Where do they grow people this stupid? I'm not your friend, I don't like you - and I'm a big enough vindictive jerk to report you and the forum to the Pentagon if you don't comply. Their legal department doesn't screw around, Admin (as well as those at MPAC if you were dumb enough to pull this idiotic move) will be compelled to give them your IP, you'll be tried in a British court and fined.

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I suggest you dont talk about a topic you seem to nothing about. At least stop making stupid assumptions.
Basayev made the offer to observe international law BEFORE Beslan. About eight onths earlier- not his first offer either.

This shows he wanted to end the slow genocide of his people through "civilised" means. When the offer was rejected he tried a more brutal method.

The ball always was and always will be in Russias court. Obey international law.

I suggest you grow a brainstem - at least work out your spelling BEFORE you post.

Why does it make a difference if he promised to obey international law before he killed children? He still killed children. You are saying we should give him a pat on the back for taking one out of the Russians book, I'm saying he should be hung right along side them. Why? Because of the CRIME, not the individuals purpetrating it.

At the end of the day you can't cram into your little fascist brain that Muslim children's lives aren't worth any more or any less than non-Muslim children's lives. I don't give Muslim child killers a by because they're doing it for God, the fact you do is dispicable and barbaric.

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Bit of an idiot aint ya? Where have i said the children dying at Beslan was acceptable? Stop being a fool and try reading post before replying to it. It helps all of us.

So far you have made every idiotic excuse manageable defending Beslan, my personal favorite was Beslan was a-okay because "It worked last time." Now you're backing off because I posted pictures of the faceless victims whos murders you were just defending.

Aww... poor little vedeno has a case of situational morality.

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Not too bright are ya? Try opening a book now and again.

lol you've gotta have something better than that. Your heros are terrorists - baby killing terrorists. I mean how much worse an insult can that get? It's not like you're even one yourself! You are so useless, so completely inept you can't even pull off shooting children - you just have to admire from afar.

I can't even imagine how much you must hate yourself.

"*DUST*" wrote:
ok i saw that before you edited it but what i was going to say in reply still makes sense: that was uncalled for. kas has only written 1 post on this thread, you're making some assumptions about where he stands on the topic. and you believe in God, yet that comment sounds like something an atheist would say. :?

It's not aetheism it's indignation, I'm accusing him of calling upon God for show, not out of some respect for innocent children.

If Kas would like to clarify his support for Shamil Basayev's record I invite him to do so, until I see something that resembles condemnation of a man who intentionally killed children and in light of his posts on this thread I'm not going to stop attacking.

I'm not a nice guy about children's issues - all of you know that.

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