Black Flags of Khorasan/Afghanistan

INTRODUCTION

1) Black Flags :
There are two types of flags in Islam.

The first is called Al-Liwaa and serves as the sign for the leader of the Muslim army. It is also the flag of the Islamic State. The Liwaa of the Messenger (Peace Be Upon Him) was a piece of white cloth with the words لآ اِلهَ اِلَّا اللّهُ مُحَمَّدُ رَّسُوْلُ اللّهِ written across it .

The other is termed as Ar-Raya and is used by the Muslim army. The Raya of the Messenger (Peace Be Upon Him) was a piece of black wool with the words لآ اِلهَ اِلَّا اللّهُ مُحَمَّدُ رَّسُوْلُ اللّهِ  written on it.

Therefore, the Liwaa is a white flag with black inscription and the Raya is a black flag with white inscription .

  
2) Khorasan :
Khorasan in the time of Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) included the whole of Afghanistan, Northern parts of Pakistan including Malakand Division, Central Asian States, part of Iran. Still a province in the North East of the Iran is named as Khorasan. Details

Approximate Map
PURPOSE
The basic purpose of this page is to create awareness among our Muslim youth about the army that will rise from the area of Khurasan holding Black Flags of Islam . This army will conquer many occupied lands of Muslims till it reaches to Jerusalem . Then it will pledge its allegiance to Imam al Mahdi (A.S) .

HADITHS

Narrated Anas:
The Prophet had informed the people of the martyrdom of Zaid, Ja'far and Ibn Rawaha before the news of their death reached. The Prophet said, "Zaid took the flag (as the commander of the army) and was martyred, then Ja'far took it and was martyred, and then Ibn Rawaha took it (Ar Raya) and was martyred." At that time the Prophet's eyes were shedding tears. He added, "Then the flag was taken by a Sword amongst the Swords of Allah (i.e. Khalid) and Allah made them (i.e. the Muslims) victorious."
Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) - (Al-Maghaazi) - Bukhari : Book 5 : Volume 59 : Hadith 561

Al-Barra’a Ibnu Azeb (ra) was asked about the Messenger’s (Peace Be Upon Him) Raya. He said: “It was black, had four corners and was made of wool.”

These and other ahadith clearly prove that Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) had designated a flag for his Ummah. 

The Messenger (Peace Be Upon Him) of Allah  conquered and entered Makkah with a Liwaa (white flag)

Black Flags / Black banners From East i.e Khurasan (Afghanistan)
Abu Abdullah Nuaim Ibn Hammad on a chain of transmission on the authority of Al Zuhari who said " The black flags will come from the East, led by mighty men, with long hair and beards, their surnames are taken from the names of their home towns (i.e. Khosti or from Khost etc.) and their first names are from a "Kunya"
(Asmal Masalik Lieyyam Mahdiyy Maliki Li Kull-id Dunya Biemrillah-il Malik, Qalda bin Zayd)
Hadhrat Buraidah (R.A.) says that Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said: "There will be many armies after me. You must join that army which will come from Khurasaan."
(Ibn Adi)

On the authority of Thawbaan (May Allah be pleased with him), the Messenger of Allah said:
"If you see the Black Banners coming from Khurasan go to them immediately, even if you must crawl over ice, because indeed amongst them is the Caliph, Al Mahdi."
[Narrated on authority of Ibn Majah, Al-Hakim, Ahmad]

Narrated by Abdur Rehman Al-Jarshi that I heard companion of Dear Prophet(salallaho alayhay wa sallam), Hazrat Amr Bin Marra Al-jamli(R.A) that Dear Prophet(salallaho alayhay wa sallam) said: Surely Black Flag will appear from the Khorasan until the people(under the leadership of this flag) will tie their horses with the Olive Trees between Bait-e-Lahya and Harasta. We asked are there any Olive trees between these places. He said,”If there isn’t then soon it will grow so that those people(of Khorasan) will come and tie their horses there.”
[Ref: Kitab-al-Fitan Page 215. Also at Page 108 in the book “Islam main Imam Mahdi ka Tasawer” by Maulana Professor Muhammad Yousaf Khan,Jamia Ashrafia Lahore,Pakistan.]

Harasta (Arabic: حرستا , transliteration: Ḥarastā) , also known as Harasta al-Basal, is a Syrian city administratively belonging to Rif Dimashq. Harasta has an altitude of 702 meters. It has a population of 38,184 as of 2007, making it the 43rd largest city per geographical entity in Syria.

Beit Lahia (Arabic: بيت لاهيا or بيت لاهية) is a town under Palestinian Authority of about 40,000 people in the northern Gaza Strip. It is located north of Jabalia, near Beit Hanoun and the border with Israel. Hamas, an Islamic party, took control of it during the 2005 municipal elections.

The word “Lahia” is Syriac and means “desolate” or “tiresome”. It is surrounded by sand dunes, some rise to 55m above sea level. The area is renowned for its many large Sycamore trees. The Israeli settlements of Nisanit, Elei Sinai, and Dugit that were in close proximity to Beit Lahia were evacuated during August 2005.Beit Lahia بيت لاهي Beit Lahiya Bayt Lahiya

Google Maps
Thawban said, "The Prophet said: 'Three men will be killed at the place where your treasure is.  Each of them will be the son of a Khalifah, and none of  them will get hold of the treasure.  Then black banners will come out of the east...' If you see him, go and give him your allegiance, even if you have to  crawl over ice, because he is the Khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi.'"
Ref : This hadith is reported in Sunan Ibn Majah vol 3 number 4084  in  'Kitab al-Fitan, Baab Kharuj al-Mahdi' and 'Mustadrak' al-Hakim. Hakim classified it as saheeh on the conditions set by al-Bukhari and Muslim and al-Dhahabi agreed. Ibn Kathir wrote about it in his 'al-Nihaya (al-Fitan wa al-Malahim)' that its isnaad is 'qawii' (strong). al-Albani considers some of the chains as unacceptable, but writes the hadith is correct in meaning without the addition, 'he is the Khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi.' He rates the isnaad of Ibn Majah from 'Alqama from Ibn Mas'ud as hasan which does not have the words, 'khalifa-tullah.' He then goes on to discuss why this addition is not acceptable. ('Silsilah al-Ahadeeth al-Da'eefah wa al-Maudu'a', vol 1, p. 195-198, Hadith #85)

You’ll join hands with a Christian group and war with another. You’ll gain victoryAt that time, you will be present in a plain of great mountains with plenty of trees. In the meantime, the Christians will raise the crucifix and refer the victory to it. At this, a Muslim will become angry, and will pull the crucifix down, at which, the Christians will unite breaking all treaties with the Muslims.The Christians will demand their wanted people, to which the Muslims will answer:"By Allah! They are our brothers. We will never hand them over. This will start the war. One-third Muslims will run away. Their ‘Tawbah’ (Repentance) will never be accepted.. One-third will be killed.They will be the best 'Shaheed' (martyrs) near Allah The remaining one-third will gain victory
(6708,6709  Ibn Hibban)

At the time, when the Muslim Ummah will have abundance of wealth, gold and silver, the Muslims will be extremely belittled, weak and helpless. The enemy nations will invite each other to pounce upon them as hungry people invite one another for food. The Sahabah (R.A) asked with utter worry, "O Prophet of Allah! Would we be very few in number?" Prophet Muhammad (S) replied: "No! You’d be as great in quantity as the foam of the sea is, seen wherever the eye can reach. But you’ll be overtaken by ‘wahn’." The Sahabah (R.A) asked, "O Prophet of Allah! What is ‘wahn’?" He (S) replied: "Love of this world and fear of death!" You’ll join hands with a Christian group and war with another. You’ll gain victory.  At that time, you will be present in a plain of great mountains with plenty of trees. In the meantime, the Christians will raise the crucifix and refer the victory to it. At this, a Muslim will become angry, and will pull the crucifix down, at which, the Christians will unite breaking all treaties with the Muslims.The Christians will demand their wanted people, to which the Muslims will answer:"By Allah! They are our brothers. We will never hand them over." This will start the war. One-third Muslims will run away. Their ‘Tawbah’ (Repentance) will never be accepted. One-third will be killed. They will be the best 'Shaheed' (martyrs) near Allah. The remaining one-third will gain victory, until, under the leadership of Imam Mehdi, they will fight against Kufr  (non-believers)..
(Ibn Majah)

Reported on a chain of transmission on the authority of Kaab "The sign of the Mahdi's appearance will be war banners coming from the west, lead by a man with a disability from "Kinda"
(Nuaym son of Hammad, Al-Fitan page 205)

*Note: Genreral Richard Meyers, commander of the US Joint chiefs of staff decalared the war on Afghanistan in October 2001 on crutches.

There is a Hadith of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) about the symbols of the Judgment day that people with the Black Flag will rise up from the land of Khurasaan to fight against Kuffar Alliances in the Final War of Armageddon.
  

Geographically, Syria is a land of great diversity that includes coastline, mountainous areas, steppe, and desert.

Geographically, Syria can be divided into four regions. A narrow fertile coastal plain runs along the Mediterranean border and extends inland to a narrow range of mountains and hills. The coastal climate is moderate with hot, dry summers and mild, wet winters; the average annual rainfall is this area is between 30 and 40 inches. The mountainous region runs from north to south, parallel to the Mediterranean Sea. The interior semiarid plains region is found to the east of the mountains. Much of the southeastern part of Syria is desert region that extends to the borders of Jordan and Iraq; most of the desert is a rock and gravel plateau that receives less than four inches of rain annually and is extremely hot.

You will make a firm truce with the Christians (al-Rum) until you and they wage a campaign against an enemy that is attacking them. You will be granted victory and great spoils. Then you will alight in a plain surrounded by hills. There, someone among the Christians shall say: 'The Cross has overcome!' whereupon someone among the Muslims shall say: 'Nay, Allah has overcome!' and shall go and break the cross.
The Christians shall kill him, then the Muslims shall take up their arms and the two sides shall fall upon each other.
Allah shall grant martyrdom to that group of Muslims. After that the Christians shall say to their leader: 'We shall relieve you of the Arabs,' and they shall gather up for the great battle (al-malhama). They shall come to you under eighty flags, each flag gathering 12,000 troops." [approx. 1 million]
Narrated with sound chains from Dhu Mikhbar al-Najashi by Abu Dawud, Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Ibn Hibban, and al-Hakim who declared it sahih and al-Dhahabi concurred. See Shaykh Shu`ayb Arna'ut's documentation of this hadith in his edition of Sahih Ibn Hibban (15:101-103 #6708-6709).

Narrated Abu Hurayrah: Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Last Hour will not come until the Romans land at al-A'maq or in Dabiq [north of Aleppo( a city in northen syria).]A n army consisting of the best (soldiers) of the people on Earth at that time will come from Medina (to oppose them). When they arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans will say: Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from among us. Let us fight them. The Muslims will say: Nay, by Allah, we shall never turn aside from you and from our brethren so that you may fight them.
They will then fight and a third (part) of the army, whom Allah will never forgive, will run away. A third (part of the army), which will be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah's eyes, would be killed. The third who will never be put on trial will win and they will be the conquerors of Constantinople. (and/or Rome)
As they are busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves) after hanging their swords by the olive trees, Satan will cry: The Dajjal has taken your place among your families. They will then come out, but it will be of no avail. When they reach Syria, he will come out while they are still preparing themselves for battle, drawing up the ranks. Certainly, the time of prayer will come and then ‘Eessa (peace_be_upon_him), son of Maryam, descends and will lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah sees him, it will (disappear) just as salt dissolves in water and if he (‘Eessa) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely. Allah would kill them by his hand and he would show them their blood on his lance.
(Muslim Book No: 40 No: 6924)

*Note: This is the part of the victorious army from Afghanistan-Taliban war facing similar fate in three categories,here connecting the old victorios army's fate with the current victorious army.Hence the victoriours army never lost continuty in its entirety.

Interesting article, but is your point to support ISIS and a violent crusade against the west by the Ummah?

PURPOSE
The basic purpose of this page is to create awareness among our Muslim youth about the army that will rise from the area of Khurasan holding Black Flags of Islam . This army will conquer many occupied lands of Muslims till it reaches to Jerusalem . Then it will pledge its allegiance to Imam al Mahdi (A.S) .

 But i do find a fault with your logic, just how far back in history do you go?

Before Mohammed and Islam, Persia was a country that followed the Zoroastrianism a monotheistic faith. predates Judism.

The Countries that bordered the Mediteranean were ruled by the Romans and were mainly Christian. The Copts in Egypt is one example.

Indeed in Mecca Jews, Christians, people of other religions, or non seemed to have gotten along with each other prior to Mohammed.

So when you state."This army will conquer many occupied lands of Muslims till it reaches to Jerusalem". These were not Occupied lands, nor was Jerusalem Muslim.

Indeed, until Mohammed first Conquered Mecca, killing people that did not agree with him, Arabia was not a Muslim country. It was only after the failing Roman and Persian empires became too weak to oppose the Army of Islam did they become Islamic due to conversian either by force economic or physical.

So Islam as mounted three Crusades against the West.  First] 630-700 North Africa and Middle East. the second] against Spain and France 750-800. the third] by the Ottomans  in 1680. One could say a fourth Crusade by Islam is in progress.

The common denominator in the above as been the destruction of people and the property of people who did not agree with the invaders.

I ask all people to read your countries history, and maybe other countries, learn from it, and to keep an open mind. Asking yourself, who benefits if the common person starts to fight each other?

On the front page there is a video sermon by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf

He quotes another hadith which talks about black flags at the time of chaos in Syria - in the hadith the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam (Peace and Blessings be upon him) warns that they lead to fitna and then kufr.

I need to find the full reference for that hadith to put in here.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
On the front page there is a video sermon by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf

He quotes another hadith which talks about black flags at the time of chaos in Syria - in the hadith the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam (Peace and Blessings be upon him) warns that they lead to fitna and then kufr.

I need to find the full reference for that hadith to put in here.

first of all using this account completely forgot the details of my last username 

 

a tyrant like hamza yusuf who supported usa to attack and kill muslims in afghanistan and iraq it is not surprising for a spineless coward like him to lie as he always does 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBIfo1obvo8

second of all the army of khorasan hadith is also found in sahih muslim further proving the liar hamza yusuf is 

since he is the dog of george bush he will do all he can to make him look like a hero even if it means to lie and betray the muslims

one of the attributes of the khawarij is they are harsh on the muslims and soft on the kafirs a quality hamza yusuf is known for the very man who calls the world khawarij himself posseses one of the major attributes of the khawarij and he is number 1 at being spineless

may allah protect us from turning into one 

anyway sufi are always known for being against action or struggle all they can do is sit in there houses and do dhikr while the kafirs kill muslims and worse is its not even dhikr of sunnah but bidah and shirk like this 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0qfYrstki0 

anyway the hadith of black banners of khorasan liberatin palestine is a sahih hadith and is one of the signs of judgement day it can be found in ibn kathirs book where he gives detailed description of,

imam ahmad ibn hanbal also declared it sahih so theres no confusion on this hadith or any disputes minus deviant sufis when the imam or 4 madhab also say something especially something they are all unanimously agreed upon you follow if you dont then you are not a follower of that madhab but a follower of your whims and desires 

 

 

As i see it wrote:
Interesting article, but is your point to support ISIS and a violent crusade against the west by the Ummah?

PURPOSE
The basic purpose of this page is to create awareness among our Muslim youth about the army that will rise from the area of Khurasan holding Black Flags of Islam . This army will conquer many occupied lands of Muslims till it reaches to Jerusalem . Then it will pledge its allegiance to Imam al Mahdi (A.S) .

 But i do find a fault with your logic, just how far back in history do you go?

Before Mohammed and Islam, Persia was a country that followed the Zoroastrianism a monotheistic faith. predates Judism.

The Countries that bordered the Mediteranean were ruled by the Romans and were mainly Christian. The Copts in Egypt is one example.

Indeed in Mecca Jews, Christians, people of other religions, or non seemed to have gotten along with each other prior to Mohammed.

So when you state."This army will conquer many occupied lands of Muslims till it reaches to Jerusalem". These were not Occupied lands, nor was Jerusalem Muslim.

Indeed, until Mohammed first Conquered Mecca, killing people that did not agree with him, Arabia was not a Muslim country. It was only after the failing Roman and Persian empires became too weak to oppose the Army of Islam did they become Islamic due to conversian either by force economic or physical.

So Islam as mounted three Crusades against the West.  First] 630-700 North Africa and Middle East. the second] against Spain and France 750-800. the third] by the Ottomans  in 1680. One could say a fourth Crusade by Islam is in progress.

The common denominator in the above as been the destruction of people and the property of people who did not agree with the invaders.

I ask all people to read your countries history, and maybe other countries, learn from it, and to keep an open mind. Asking yourself, who benefits if the common person starts to fight each other?

 

first of all correct me if i am wrong you sound like a uneducated kafir

firstly i would like to mention islam existed before all those you mentioned muhammad saw revived islam not a founder, this is why we say isa as known as jesus by christians after these events happen will descend 

islam existed from the time aadam as the first human with his wife hawa came on earth

second the only people who did the crusade are the christians of west in jeruselam in which there was 9 crusades when you were finally defeated and left and after that george bush declared the 10th crusade when he attacked afghanistan in which usa and west christians were defeated again by the muslims 

second of all you need to educate yourself in islam 

After his sermon, the Messenger of God asked the people there: “O Qurayshis! What do you think I will do to you?”

The Qurayshis said, “You are a generous and good brother. You are a generous and good nephew. We think you will do good things about us.”

Thereupon, the Messenger of God said,

“My situation and your situation are like what Joseph (Yusuf) said to his brothers.”[79]

“I am saying to you what Yusuf said to his brothers, ‘This day let no reproach be (cast) on you: God will forgive you, and He is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy’” (Yusuf, 92).

“You can leave; you are free.”[80]

The best pardoning is to pardon when one has power; the best favor is the favor done in return for bad deeds. The best mercy is to show mercy on those who have not shown mercy on you. That was what the Messenger of God did because he was taught the following by God Almighty:

“Hold to forgiveness; command what is right; but turn away from the ignorant.”[81]

At that moment, the Qurayshis were waiting in the presence of the Messenger of God lowering their heads and opening their hands. If he had wished, he would have killed all of them in return for the oppression and tortures they had inflicted upon him or he would have enslaved them; he could have confiscated their land and exiled them.

However, the Prophet, who was sent as mercy to the realms, did not do any of them. His only aim was to conquer people’s hearts. Thanks to this exceptional attitude of his, the Prophet served his aim very well. Upon his merciful behavior, pardoning and generosity, the Qurayshi polytheists abandoned their feelings of hatred and enmity; they embraced Islam.   

History witnessed such a magnificent spiritual and ideological revolution for the first time.

http://www.questionsonislam.com/article/conquest-makkah

 

second of all my title says Black Flags of Khorasan/Afghanistan, isis are not from there they are in iraq with a  different mission good or bad allah is the judge of that, if they do good allah will reward them if bad allah will deal with them 

 

Islam was the religion revealed to the prophet (saw). God chose that name in the Qur'an.

The followers of earlier revelation were hunafaa.

On the Issue of the hadith quoted by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, I see you prefer to shoot the messenger instead of take into account the hadith he quoted. That is your prerogative, but it doesnt make the hadith not exist.

Further, ISIS are not from the Khorasan (heck, even some shia militias fighting them are from closer to the khorasan), so no twisting of words can make the hadith apply to these guys who who do not follow Islamic guidelines on grooming and are mostly spending their days spending fitna and murdering Muslims.

(your attempt to engage in meaningful debate with non Muslims is funny. I applaud the attempt though)

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
Islam was the religion revealed to the prophet (saw). God chose that name in the Qur'an.

The followers of earlier revelation were hunafaa.

On the Issue of the hadith quoted by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, I see you prefer to shoot the messenger instead of take into account the hadith he quoted. That is your prerogative, but it doesnt make the hadith not exist.

Further, ISIS are not from the Khorasan (heck, even some shia militias fighting them are from closer to the khorasan), so no twisting of words can make the hadith apply to these guys who who do not follow Islamic guidelines on grooming and are mostly spending their days spending fitna and murdering Muslims.

(your attempt to engage in meaningful debate with non Muslims is funny. I applaud the attempt though)

first of all its obvious your a sufi yet your knowlede on sufism is bad aswell, if you had any then you wouldve known your own sufi scholars (decent number of them) rejected the hadith hamz yusuf quotes

 

heres 2 fatwa showing why this hadith is weak if not fabricated and has no value

All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad  , is His slave and Messenger.

The statement which you mentioned is not a Marfoo‘ Hadeeth (traced back to) the Prophet  , but it was a statement of ‘Ali  [may Allaah be pleased with him]  and it was reported by Nu‘aym ibn Hammaad in Kitaab Al-Fitan.

We found that none of the prominent scholars assessed whether it is authentic or weak. However, some contemporary scholars criticized its chain of narrators because it contains some narrators who have been criticized, among whom was Ibn Lahee‘ah as a Hadeeth narrated by him is weak except if it was reported from him by ‘Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak or ‘Abdullaah ibn Wahb or‘Abdullaah ibn al-Muqri’ because if they reported a Hadeeth which was narrated by him, then it is authentic as clarified by the scholars. This statement was not narrated by any of them. Moreover, its chain of narrators includesRashdeen ibn Sa‘d, and the Ahaadeeth he reports are weak in the view of the scholars of Hadeeth.

Allaah Knows best.
Title: Is the book Kitab-ul-fitan by Shk Nu'aim bin Hummad authentic? Also, I read at http://www.muftisays.com/archive/topic/hanafi-fiqh/2179/, that nuaim bin hammad attacked Imam abu hanifa (RA) and fabricated stories about him. ..Question

Is the book Kitab-ul-fitan by Shk Nu'aim bin Hummad authentic?  Also, I read at http://www.muftisays.com/archive/topic/hanafi-fiqh/2179/, that nuaim bin hammad attacked Imam abu hanifa (RA) and fabricated stories about him.   If this is true, why did he attack the great imam?  Did he repent later on ? Is nuaim bin hammad a reliable scholar and can we read the above mentioned book?  Please reply at the earliest.

Answer

In the name of Allāh, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Assalāmu ῾alaykum wa Rahmatullāhi Wabarakātuh

 

Nu`aym ibn Ḥammād رحمه الله تعالي

 

His full name was Abu Abdillāh Nu`aym ibn Ḥammād ibn Mu`āwiyah al-khuzā`ī al-marwazī. He studied in Irāq and Ḥijāz and settled in Egypt. He studied hadīth under many `ulamā from amongst whom are: Abu Hamzah as-Sukkarī, Abu Bakr ibn `Ayyāsh, Ḥafṣ ibn Ghiyāth, ibn `Uyaynah, al-Faḍl ibn Mūsa, Abū Dāwūd al-Tiyālisī, Abdullāh ibn Mubārak and others رحمهم الله تعالي.

 

From amongst his students are: Muḥammad ibn Ismā`il al-Bukhārī, Yaḥyah ibn Ma`īn, Abu Ḥātim ar-Rāzī, Abu Zur`ah ad-Dimashqī and others رحمهم الله تعالي.

 

Nu`aym رحمه الله تعالي is considered to be the first person to compile a musnad.

 

His aḥadīth are narrated in all the six famous books of ḥadīth besides Nasa`i. Imām Bukhārī رحمه الله تعالي narrates from him a narration or two in his celebrated al-Jāmi’ as-Ṣaḥīh and also a few متابعات. Imām Muslim رحمه الله تعالي narrates from him via al-Ḥasan al-Ḥalwāni رحمه الله تعالي in the introduction of his ṣaḥīḥ.

 

فتح الباري - ابن حجر - (1 / 667) دار مصر

خ م د ت ق - نعيم بن حماد الخزاعي المروزي نزيل مصر مشهور من الحفاظ الكبار لقيه البخاري ولكنه لم يخرج عنه في الصحيح سوى موضع أو موضعين وعلق له أشياء أخر وروى له مسلم في المقدمة موضعا واحدا وأصحاب السنن إلا النسائي

 

 

Mawlānā Shabbīr Ahmad `Uthmānī رحمه الله تعالي mentions: those scholars who have used harsh words against Imām Abū Ḥanīfah رحمه الله تعالي , we should only think good regarding them as a believer is jealous (ghayyūr) and sincere in his intentions. When he is informed of something which seems to be contradicting the sunnah and destroying dīn (even though in reality it is not so) then his jealousy for dīn overtakes him causing him to get angry for the pleasure of Allāh Ta`ālā. Thus, resulting in him using harsh words in defence of the dīn. An example of this is Imām Muslim رحمه الله تعالي using strong words against Imām Bukhārī رحمه الله تعالي in his muqaddimah. Most commentators have preferred the view of Imām Bukhārī رحمه الله تعالي but they did not criticise Imām Muslim رحمه الله تعالي for using harsh words. (Shaykh Abdul Fattāḥ رحمه الله تعالي mentions in his footnote on the above that the correct view is that Imām Muslim رحمه الله تعالي intended to refute `Alī ibn Madīnī رحمه الله تعالي) (al-Intiqā’ fi faḍailil aimmatil fuqahā’ 272 with reference to Fatḥul Mulhim 1/73)

 

Dūlābi and Abul Fatḥ al-Azdī رحمهما الله تعالي narrates that Nu`aym رحمه الله تعالي used to fabricate narrations to strengthen the sunnah and he also used to fabricate incidents defaming Imām AbūḤanīfah رحمه الله تعالي all of which are false. 

 

Ibn `Adī رحمه الله تعالي comments that this cannot be accepted from Dūlābī رحمه الله تعالي as Dūlābī was from the ahlur ra’y whilst Nu`aym رحمه الله تعالي was oppose to them. Ibn Ḥajar رحمه الله تعالي reviews this statement of Ibn `Adī and says that Ibn `Adī was mistaken in criticising Dūlābi. The fact of the matter is that both Dūlābī and Abul Fatḥ al-Azdī رحمهما الله تعالي are narrating from unknown scholars. Dūlābī narrates with the words “others say” whilst Abul Fatḥ uses the words “they say”. Therefore, we cannot accept their statements against Nu`aym as his (Nu`aym’s) `adālah(authenticity) has been established even though he has some awhām (mistakes).

 

Since Nu`aym رحمه الله تعالي is a narrator of Bukhārī, therefore Ibn Hajar رحمه الله تعالي tries to defend him. Mawlānā Abdur Rashīd Nu’mānī رحمه الله تعالي says that it is possible that Ibn Ḥajar رحمه الله تعاليwas unaware what Nu`aym رحمه الله تعالي said regarding Imām Abū Ḥanīfah therefore he tries to defend him. Furthermore, the criticism against Nu`aym رحمه الله تعالي will not fall away with the excuse of Ḥafiẓ رحمه الله تعالي. Dūlābī and Abul Fatḥ al-Azdī رحمهما الله تعالي are both great Imām’s of al-jarḥ wat ta’dīl (authentication and criticism). They are quoting their shuyūkh. They will not quote somebody unknown in their criticism.  (al-Imām Ibn Mājah wa kitābuhus Sunan 98)

 

He was imprisoned in the year 223a.h. or 224a.h. due to the issue regarding the Noble Qurān being created or not and passed away in prison. Some scholars have recorded his demise in the year 228a.h. whilst other mentioned 229a.h.

سير أعلام النبلاء - (10 / 610)

قال أحمد بن محمد بن سهل الخالدي: سمعت أبا بكر الطرسوسي يقول: أخذ نعيم بن حماد في أيام المحنة سنة ثلاث أو أربع وعشرينومئتين، وألقوه في السجن، ومات في سنة تسع وعشرين ومئتين، وأوصى أن يدفن في قيوده

 

Although outwardly it seemed that he had a very bad death but he holds very lofty stages in the sight of Allah Ta’ala. Nabi صلي الله عليه وسلم said:

سنن الترمذي - (4 / 471) مصطفى البابي الحلبي

 2174 - حدثنا القاسم بن دينار الكوفي حدثنا عبد الرحمن بن مصعب أبو يزيد حدثنا إسرائيل عن محمد بن جحادة عن عطية عن أبي سعيد الخدري : أن النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم قال إن من أعظم الجهاد كلمة عدل عند سلطان جائر

 قال أبو عيسى وفي الباب عن ابي أمامة وهذا حديث حسن غريب من هذا الوجه

 

The best jihād is proclaiming the truth in front of an oppressive ruler. (Tirmidhi 2174)

 

Regarding his book al-fitan, Allāmah adh-Dhahabī رحمه الله تعالى has comments by saying:

 

سير أعلام النبلاء - (10 / 609) مؤسسة الرسالة

وقد صنف كتاب " الفتن " فأتى فيه بعجائب ومناكير.

 

“He was authored a book named “al-fitan” and has mentioned a lot of strange and unauthentic narrations”. (As-Siyar 10/609 Muassasatur Risālah)

 

تهذيب التهذيب 10/409 دار الكتب العلميه

سير اعلام النبلاء 10/595 مؤسسة الرسالة

 

And Allāh Ta῾āla Knows Best 
Wassalāmu ῾alaykum

 

Mufti  Ishaq Moosa
Checked and Approved by:

 

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Dārul Iftā, Madrasah In῾āmiyyah

 

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now it is quite obvious you have no respect of imam abu hanifa rh as if you did you wouldnt accept hadith from a  guy who made lies against imam abu hanifa rh 

 

You wrote:
Islam was the religion revealed to the prophet (saw). God chose that name in the Qur'an.

The followers of earlier revelation were hunafaa.

On the Issue of the hadith quoted by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, I see you prefer to shoot the messenger instead of take into account the hadith he quoted. That is your prerogative, but it doesnt make the hadith not exist.

Further, ISIS are not from the Khorasan (heck, even some shia militias fighting them are from closer to the khorasan), so no twisting of words can make the hadith apply to these guys who who do not follow Islamic guidelines on grooming and are mostly spending their days spending fitna and murdering Muslims.

(your attempt to engage in meaningful debate with non Muslims is funny. I applaud the attempt though)

 

now to your claim of isis, this hadith has no link to isis, isis are in iraq and syria, and they have made a big mess over in syria after killing nusrat for no reason and destroying there mission 

but anyway i dont want to get into the isis debate but what i can say about isis is they ar enot a calipha as they failed to even create a shura council to begin with and just declared it and gave no people the chance to vote, so they are not a khilafah, as for whether theyre good or bad allah knows best if the bad attributed to them is true allah will judge them

but atleast they are not sellouts and spineless like hamza yusuf who for his whims and desires will even use a fabricated hadith from a guy who narrates from someone who falsely attacked imam abu hanifa rh with lies and false stories 

 

As someone posting about strength of chains I guess you know but deliberately overlook the fact that weak and fabricated are not the same thing and cannot be treated the same (though I do understnad how deliberate confusion between the two can be useful for some political ends).

...will even use a fabricated hadith...

Once again the deliberate obfuscation between weak and fabricated chains of narration.

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf confirmed that its isnad was considered weak, but he also stated that the events described in the hadith seem to fit what is happening now in Iraq and Syria.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
As someone posting about strength of chains I guess you know but deliberately overlook the fact that weak and fabricated are not the same thing and cannot be treated the same (though I do understnad how deliberate confusion between the two can be useful for some political ends).

...will even use a fabricated hadith...

Once again the deliberate obfuscation between weak and fabricated chains of narration.

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf confirmed that its isnad was considered weak, but he also stated that the events described in the hadith seem to fit what is happening now in Iraq and Syria.

44877: Our attitude concerning da’eef (weak) ahaadeeth which speak of good deeds

What is the attitude of the scholars concerning a hadeeth whose isnaad is da’eef (weak), but whose text encourages a righteous deed or a du’aa’? Please respond.

Praise be to Allaah.  

The scholars differed concerning acting upon weak ahaadeeth which encourage righteous deeds. Some of them were of the view that it is permissible to act upon them, subject to certain conditions, and others were of the view that it is not permissible to act upon them. 

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) summed up the conditions for it to be permissible to act upon a saheeh hadeeth, which are as follows: 

1 – It should not be very weak, and one should not act upon a hadeeth which was narrated only by one of the liars or those who are accused of lying, or whose mistakes are serious. 

2 – It should mention a good deed for which there is a basis in sharee’ah. 

3 – When acting upon it one should not believe that the action is well-founded, rather he should do it on the basis of erring on the side of caution. 

Acting upon a weak hadeeth does not mean that we believe it is mustahabb to do an act of worship simply because a da’eef hadeeth has been narrated concerning it. None of the scholars has said such a thing – as we shall see from the words of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, below – rather what it means is that if it is proven that a certain act of worship is mustahabb because there is sound (saheeh) shar’i evidence – as in the case of qiyaam al-layl (supererogatory prayers at night), for example – then we find a da’eef hadeeth which speaks of the virtue of qiyaam al-layl, then there is nothing wrong with acting upon this weak hadeeth in that case. What is meant by acting upon it is narrating it in order to encourage people to do this act of worship, in the hope that the one who does it will earn the reward mentioned in the da’eef hadeeth, because acting on the weak hadeeth in this case will not lead to doing something that is forbidden in sharee’ah, such as saying that an act of worship is mustahabb that is not proven in sharee’ah. Rather, if he earns this reward all well and good, otherwise no harm is done.  

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 1/250: 

It is not permissible in Islam to rely on weak ahaadeeth that are neither saheeh nor hasan, but Ahmad ibn Hanbal and other scholars regarded it is permissible to narrate reports concerning righteous deeds which are not known to be proven, so long as they are not known to be lies, on the basis that if an action is known to be prescribed in Islam from shar’i evidence, and there is a hadeeth which is not known to be a lie, it is possible that the reward referred to in that weak hadeeth may be true. None of the imams said that it is permissible to regard something as obligatory or mustahabb on the basis of a weak hadeeth; whoever says that is going against scholarly consensus. It is permissible to narrate reports that are not known to be lies in order to encourage and warn people, but only with regard to matters where it is known that Allaah has encouraged or warned against them on the basis of other evidence the status of whose narrators is not unknown. End quote. 

Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi said that it is not permissible to act on the basis of a weak hadeeth at all, whether with regard to virtuous deeds or otherwise… See Tadreeb al-Raawi, 1/252. 

This is the view favoured by al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him). See the introduction to Saheeh al-Targheeb wa’l-Tarheeb, 1/47-67. 

The saheeh proven reports from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) offer us sufficient evidence that we have no need to act on the basis of weak hadeeths. 

The Muslim must strive to find out which ahaadeeth are sound (saheeh) and which are weak (da’eef), and be content to act on the basis of the sound reports. 

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

 

let us put hamza yusuf hadith to the test

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) summed up the conditions for it to be permissible to act upon a saheeh hadeeth, which are as follows: 

1 – It should not be very weak, and one should not act upon a hadeeth which was narrated only by one of the liars or those who are accused of lying, or whose mistakes are serious. 

2 – It should mention a good deed for which there is a basis in sharee’ah. 

3 – When acting upon it one should not believe that the action is well-founded, rather he should do it on the basis of erring on the side of caution. 

 

1) the hadith hamza yusuf quotes has fails this criteria as it is narrated by a liar, so not only the chain is weak but the narrator is not only weak but a confirmed liar 

2) the hadith is a prophecy for future however sahih hadith exists of this matter which says somethin else which further weakens that hadith

3) again this hadith doesnt fit in here as sahih hadith exists so we cant act upon it anyway 

 

so by the verdict of imam ibn hajar whom sufis also respect the hadith weak and isnt jsut weak but as the imam says has a liar so it is unreliable in all ways 

 

 

You wrote:
As someone posting about strength of chains I guess you know but deliberately overlook the fact that weak and fabricated are not the same thing and cannot be treated the same (though I do understnad how deliberate confusion between the two can be useful for some political ends).

...will even use a fabricated hadith...

Once again the deliberate obfuscation between weak and fabricated chains of narration.

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf confirmed that its isnad was considered weak, but he also stated that the events described in the hadith seem to fit what is happening now in Iraq and Syria.

 

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) summed up the conditions for it to be permissible to act upon a saheeh hadeeth, which are as follows: 

1 – It should not be very weak, and one should not act upon a hadeeth which was narrated only by one of the liars or those who are accused of lying, or whose mistakes are serious. 

as i mentioned the hadith has a liar a major liar infact in it so it is invalid in all forms 

second of all a advise from me is not to trust scholars who walk shoulder to shoulder with open enemies of islam 

may allah protect us from turning spineless like hamza yusuf 

look for yourself brother this man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKOGVU5UfS0 who once used to warn to stay away from the enemies is now one of them clearly shows he is no longer the man he once was

 

I will take his word over yours any day of the week. He is one of the few really big scholars we have left IMO.

I have deliberately chosen not to respond to your accusations against him because you come here on a cyclical basis once orntwice a year and are always the same with the same accusations, same agenda.

Considering your passion for such topics you should have completed a course and obtained a sanad by now.

You seem smart and passionate enough for it and sitting and learning from teachers from any group that you follow would enlighten you and maybe even make you enlighten others.

Put your smarts and passions to some use before they are taken away.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
I will take his word over yours any day of the week. He is one of the few really big scholars we have left IMO.

I have deliberately chosen not to respond to your accusations against him because you come here on a cyclical basis once orntwice a year and are always the same with the same accusations, same agenda.


And you always failed to answer them

Anyway those who dont have a y answer to things usually make comments like these so they can save themselves from getting exposed in front of their fans. The idiots adam saleh sheikh akbar use the same technique

Quote:
Considering your passion for such topics you should have completed a course and obtained a sanad by now.

You seem smart and passionate enough for it and sitting and learning from teachers from any group that you follow would enlighten you and maybe even make you enlighten others.

Put your smarts and passions to some use before they are taken away.


Use your talent to find a scholar who is not a coward and learn from them. Second ive learnt many things from many scholars and one thing i have learnt is when you see tbese modern scholars differ with classical scholars follow the classical scholars. I find it funny in the past you had a problem with zakir naik on his view on madhab yet today your tyrant scholar is going against the way of the 4 imams and you follow him blindly which shows the 2 face double standards you sufis are. Pick and choose

 

What ibposted was not combative.

I know I can be overly harsh and negative, so I thought I'd try a different approach.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
What ibposted was not combative.

I know I can be overly harsh and negative, so I thought I'd try a different approach.

a sufi being overly harsh if you had any spine you wouldve stood up against the wrong now but your not man enough for that 

besides your tahirul qadri who sufis consider superior to hamza yusuf considers this hadith sahih 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rroyBrs9TfA

im sure you ahve many tahirul qadri fans here who accept his view of this hadith over hamza yusuf and by the way both of these men are sellouts  

 

Scholars in holding scholarly opinions shocker.

I see that you are here to insult.

What do the scholars you follow say about a non scholar debating scholarly opinions?

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
Scholars in holding scholarly opinions shocker.

I see that you are here to insult.

What do the scholars you follow say about a non scholar debating scholarly opinions?

They say check the view of he classical scholars and follow them if you see scholars of today differ. Again we are referring to good scholars differing, here we have good scholars differing with the scholars of george bush so this doesnt even apply especially with hamza yusuf who is not even a muhadith so his view of weak sahih of hadith has no value

If its scholarly opinion of good scholars differing matter os different but good scholars differing with george bush right hand man is a different matter

 

Good scholar V bad scholar is a debate between scholars

On this larger topic I am surprised at your stance.

We both agree that there is a hadith about black flags from the Khorasan. We both agree it does not apply to ISIS.

We both are aware of another hadith with a weaker sanad about a group with black flags causing fitna in Syria and that it may or may not be talking about groups like ISIS.

and then we have your unscholarly attack on scholars and groups just for kicks. Because you cannot help it. If this is your passion, there is a path you can follow where your attacks could eventually become legitimate. This involves actually studying with scholars through a scholar course - any scholars of your choice at an institute of your choice.

If the study re-inforces your views, then you have the knowledge to back them up. If they don't, then you leave the process enlightened.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
Good scholar V bad scholar is a debate between scholars

On this larger topic I am surprised at your stance.

We both agree that there is a hadith about black flags from the Khorasan. We both agree it does not apply to ISIS.

We both are aware of another hadith with a weaker sanad about a group with black flags causing fitna in Syria and that it may or may not be talking about groups like ISIS. 

and i have shown you when a weak hadith can be accepted and when it cant, the scholars have given us the criteria it must match, the hadith clearly fails this so it cant be accepted  

isis as i said no comment on them, but i dont support them,  theres too much doubts on them, they are a mess in all form 

as for good vs bad scholars first part is aqeedah, second is there attitutude towards muslim and there relationship with kafir, lastly there view on jihad, with hamza yusuf he fails all these categories, from wrong aqeedah to unity with kafirs 

You wrote:
and then we have your unscholarly attack on scholars and groups just for kicks. Because you cannot help it. If this is your passion, there is a path you can follow where your attacks could eventually become legitimate. This involves actually studying with scholars through a scholar course - any scholars of your choice at an institute of your choice.

If the study re-inforces your views, then you have the knowledge to back them up. If they don't, then you leave the process enlightened.

 

as for how or who i have studied under that you need to ask me and i wouldve told you, but for hamza yusuf we know many scholars and students of knowledge,  such as yasir qadhi, bilal philips, yusuf estes, abu musab and many others 

and advise to you, if you want to blind follow, blind follow madhabs not scholars of today especially the sellouts 

 

@ muhammadalfatih

[ first of all correct me if i am wrong you sound like a uneducated kafir ]

First of all thank you if by calling me an uneducated kafir. If by that you say that i am not a Muslim, again that is correct. I am a Christian who believes in both the teaching and examples set by Jesus. Who i believe was God living on earth as a Man to show mankind the true face of God. A God who his caring, compassionate and merciful. Not the oppressive demanding spiteful God portrayed in many Religions. Unfortunately Mankind does have a habit of creating a God to suit their own beliefs.

Regarding be uneducated, i disagree, whilst accepting that my knowledge of Islam falls short of both yourself and You. I have read your debate with much interest and welcome the fact that fellow Muslims can openly debate both the Quran and Hadith's. As for myself i have read the Quran and some of the Hadiths, but all they have done is strengthen my belief in Jesus and his teachings.

I will not go into why or wherefore as no doubt you have seen or read debates Christianity v Islam, Quran/Hadith v The Bible. Both show tolerance & intolerance, truthfulness & deceitfulness, compassion and the total disregard of other people.

Of the Bible itself  there his two halves and both should be read and understood differently. Of the Old Testament, i take from it only the ten commandments which is a good a set of rules to live by as any. The first five books are a set of Laws set down by men, who have said "God told us to do this or that and then forced these opinions on others". When you read from Joshua to the Chronicles, rather then being the word of God, as some people say, it is a summary of the history Jewish peoples and how they gained their land. But what is suprising is the honesty of it all as it describes in detail all that was good and bad in the way they did it. An example to us all, just how two sided mankind can be. The rest of the Old Testament is various Prophets trying to act as the conscience of Israel. As i said before I take the ten commandments as rules to live by, but i also re-read Ecclesiastes, which explains to me, that very little is new and that mankind is still making the same mistakes. The other section i re-read is proverbs for the fact that many of the proverbs cancel each other out. Which is useful when you here people quoting this or that fact from the Bible/Quran/Hadith as these people usually quote the section that proves their point or to disprove the others augment.

It is only in the reading of the New Testament do find the true side of God and Humanity. It shows the Life and teaching of Jesus. The Oneness of Mankind and that all are equal before God. In it he sums up is teachings in a] The Lords Prayer, b] His sermon on the Mount c] In his summing up of the Law of the Old Testament. Love your God with all your Mind, Body and Soul and to treat your fellowmen as you would have them treat you. Cuts through all the countless words both written and spoken, leaving a simple legacy and a way for mankind to get along.

Sorry if i went on a bit there, but i just meant to explain my beliefs and why i say what i say.

@ muhammadalfatih

[firstly i would like to mention Islam existed before all those you mentioned muhammad saw revived islam not a founder, this is why we say isa as known as jesus by christians after these events happen will descend ]

@ muhammadalfatih

[ islam existed from the time aadam as the first human with his wife hawa came on earth ]

Yes i have read that in Islam all people, inc Old Testament Prophets, inc Jesus, who accepted the will of God are followers of Islam. But as a Christian who believes in Jesus and the will of God it does not make me a Muslim. This brings me back to;

@ muhammedalfatih

[second the only people who did the crusade are the christians of west in jeruselam in which there was 9 crusades when you were finally defeated and left and after that george bush declared the 10th crusade when he attacked afghanistan in which usa and west christians were defeated again by the muslims]

We will forget the term Crusade, But the Muslims did invade and conquer the Christian Countries that border the Mediterranean and convert these people to Islam by either physical force or economic force through the use of taxation if they wished to follow their own religion. Those who did not pay the tax, or convert, had the choice leave or be killed. The same choice's that was given to the residents of Mecca. The same Muslims did invade Spain and the residents of Spain was again given the same choices.

The Crusades, yes as you say the west did try to retake Jerusalem back from the Muslims. in 1099 onwards to gain access to Christian sites, In this they succeeded, but these Crusades could be called a crusade to retake the Christian lands occupied the the Muslims since 690. Not forgetting that the Muslims did succeed in conquering all of North Africa, Spain and the southern part of France, before being defeated by Charles Martell in 737, leading to the reconquest of Spain by 1400.

One could also say that the Ottomans [Muslims] tried again in 1680 ending in the Battle of Vienna and the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

As for George Bush and the Invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, I seem to remember, but to no avail, mass demonstrations against it in many European Cities. Alongside this we have had mass demonstrations in support of Gaza. But as yet i have not seen similar demonstrations against ISIS, who have killed more Muslims then the Israeli have done in Gaza, from the Muslim population in the EU?

 

As i see it wrote:
@ muhammadalfatih

[ first of all correct me if i am wrong you sound like a uneducated kafir ]

First of all thank you if by calling me an uneducated kafir. If by that you say that i am not a Muslim, again that is correct. I am a Christian who believes in both the teaching and examples set by Jesus. Who i believe was God living on earth as a Man to show mankind the true face of God. A God who his caring, compassionate and merciful. Not the oppressive demanding spiteful God portrayed in many Religions. Unfortunately Mankind does have a habit of creating a God to suit their own beliefs.

Regarding be uneducated, i disagree, whilst accepting that my knowledge of Islam falls short of both yourself and You. I have read your debate with much interest and welcome the fact that fellow Muslims can openly debate both the Quran and Hadith's. As for myself i have read the Quran and some of the Hadiths, but all they have done is strengthen my belief in Jesus and his teachings. 

first of all your quotation are poorly done this is not how you do it i'll show you in this post how to do it

jesus was a man like me and you a man cannot be the creator, your bible also claims your god transformed himself into a dove another flaw imagine a creator being equal to a animal which is inferior to, this is where you christians are flawed to begin with your concept of the creator is flawed, your god is a human being like me jesus who himself commited sins how is he going to forgive and repent for others and guide others when he himself commtied major sins such as disrespecting his own parents and other

so jesus is not god he is just a man second in your bible jesus himself never says his god you say that so your not even a proper christian

second i said uneducated kafir so i mean your uneducated in islam, you might be a docotor or hold a phd but still uneducated in islam

 

As i see it wrote:
I will not go into why or wherefore as no doubt you have seen or read debates Christianity v Islam, Quran/Hadith v The Bible. Both show tolerance & intolerance, truthfulness & deceitfulness, compassion and the total disregard of other people.

Of the Bible itself  there his two halves and both should be read and understood differently. Of the Old Testament, i take from it only the ten commandments which is a good a set of rules to live by as any. The first five books are a set of Laws set down by men, who have said "God told us to do this or that and then forced these opinions on others". When you read from Joshua to the Chronicles, rather then being the word of God, as some people say, it is a summary of the history Jewish peoples and how they gained their land. But what is suprising is the honesty of it all as it describes in detail all that was good and bad in the way they did it. An example to us all, just how two sided mankind can be. The rest of the Old Testament is various Prophets trying to act as the conscience of Israel. As i said before I take the ten commandments as rules to live by, but i also re-read Ecclesiastes, which explains to me, that very little is new and that mankind is still making the same mistakes. The other section i re-read is proverbs for the fact that many of the proverbs cancel each other out. Which is useful when you here people quoting this or that fact from the Bible/Quran/Hadith as these people usually quote the section that proves their point or to disprove the others augment.

from what you described you pick and choose like a typical christian does, you choose to do this, your christianity is not about that, you either follow the bible or you dont not say i will follow this but leave this out, follow as it is not pick and choose so the way you follo your religion to begin with is flawed 

As i see it wrote:
 It is only in the reading of the New Testament do find the true side of God and Humanity. It shows the Life and teaching of Jesus. The Oneness of Mankind and that all are equal before God. In it he sums up is teachings in a] The Lords Prayer, b] His sermon on the Mount c] In his summing up of the Law of the Old Testament. Love your God with all your Mind, Body and Soul and to treat your fellowmen as you would have them treat you. Cuts through all the countless words both written and spoken, leaving a simple legacy and a way for mankind to get along.

Sorry if i went on a bit there, but i just meant to explain my beliefs and why i say what i say.

new testement is more flawed then the old testement in the next post i will show you some, but before that do speak hebrew or greek and also i wanted to know from you what language did jesus speak 

As i see it wrote:
 @ muhammadalfatih

[firstly i would like to mention Islam existed before all those you mentioned muhammad saw revived islam not a founder, this is why we say isa as known as jesus by christians after these events happen will descend ]

@ muhammadalfatih

[ islam existed from the time aadam as the first human with his wife hawa came on earth ]

Yes i have read that in Islam all people, inc Old Testament Prophets, inc Jesus, who accepted the will of God are followers of Islam. But as a Christian who believes in Jesus and the will of God it does not make me a Muslim. This brings me back to;

if you believe in jesus then you must believe in the final prophet muhammad saw, or your not a true follower of jesus, rather a false follower, as i said follow jesus/isa as properly or dont do not pick and choose

As i see it wrote:
@ muhammedalfatih

[second the only people who did the crusade are the christians of west in jeruselam in which there was 9 crusades when you were finally defeated and left and after that george bush declared the 10th crusade when he attacked afghanistan in which usa and west christians were defeated again by the muslims]

We will forget the term Crusade, But the Muslims did invade and conquer the Christian Countries that border the Mediterranean and convert these people to Islam by either physical force or economic force through the use of taxation if they wished to follow their own religion. Those who did not pay the tax, or convert, had the choice leave or be killed. The same choice's that was given to the residents of Mecca. The same Muslims did invade Spain and the residents of Spain was again given the same choices.

your uneducated side is appearing again when muslims conquered palestine umar ra entered alaqsa mosque of suleiman as, christians were at his mercy he couldve killed them all, infact he couldve destroyed the christian and jewish place of worship but he allowed them to remain along with the people, and the people continued to live side by side with muslims in peace, those poor nonmuslims who couldnt pay jizya islamic ruling ordered them to be given zakat/charity and the nonmuslims recieved charity from muslims if poor 

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=299575810097040&id=218...

had it not been for the muslims jews wouldve never had the chance to live in jerusalem, christians were known to hurt kill jews who tried to enter jerusalem

so no nonmuslims were forced to convert due to pressure, we used to give zakat to the poor christians and allowed them not to pay jizya, we allowed the jews and christians to stay in jerusalem when your christians used to beat and kill any jews who tried to enter or live in it, and during crusades your war was against muslims but you killed the innocent jewish civilians for no reason even though they were not even involved in this war 

As i see it wrote:
The Crusades, yes as you say the west did try to retake Jerusalem back from the Muslims. in 1099 onwards to gain access to Christian sites, In this they succeeded, but these Crusades could be called a crusade to retake the Christian lands occupied the the Muslims since 690. Not forgetting that the Muslims did succeed in conquering all of North Africa, Spain and the southern part of France, before being defeated by Charles Martell in 737, leading to the reconquest of Spain by 1400.

the matter is not simply trying to retake jerusalem, you killed innocent civilians, you destroyed the trees, burned things all which even according to bible is sin, but most importantly you killed innocent people both muslims and nonmuslims, forget that im guessing your a catholic, you catholics went on to kill your own orthodox christians thats how barbaric you were, trying to capture is one thing but killing innocent civilians who were mostly women children and elderly is amongst the worst crimes the christians in crusade did, the muslims did not kill any civilians, no women children elderly in any of those conquests you mentioned, and after taking over we allowed christians and all nonmuslims to continue there religion infact the nonmuslims didnt have to follow shariah punishment if they commited a crime they were allowed to judge based on their religion 

As i see it wrote:
One could also say that the Ottomans [Muslims] tried again in 1680 ending in the Battle of Vienna and the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

again same answer we did not kill innocent people, in all those battles we fought the armies and soldiers 

As i see it wrote:
As for George Bush and the Invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, I seem to remember, but to no avail, mass demonstrations against it in many European Cities. Alongside this we have had mass demonstrations in support of Gaza. But as yet i have not seen similar demonstrations against ISIS, who have killed more Muslims then the Israeli have done in Gaza, from the Muslim population in the EU? 

majaority of your people supported it, only the minority went against it and protested against it so dont exegerate 

as for muslims speaking against isis you may want to go on youtube and islam21c website to see the amount of people and scholars speaking agaisnt isis 

killed more then israeli, a single israeli bomb kills more then isis do in year and you killing muslims in gaza has been happening for over 60 years, lets not forget bosnia moro iraq afghanistan and also vietnam war which your christians did for no real purpose 

 

 

 

First, we deal with Astronomy. The Bible speaks about the creation of the universe. In the beginning, 1st Book, Book of Genesis, 1st Ch., it is mentioned - It says… ‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, in six days and talks about a evening and a morning, referring to a 24 - hour day. Today scientists tell us, that the universe cannot be created in a 24 hour period of six days. Qur’an too speaks about six ‘ayyams’. The Arabic word singular is ‘yaum’ plural is ‘ayyam’. It can either mean a day of 24 hours, or it is a very long period, an ‘yaum’, an epoch. Scientists say we have no objection in agreeing that the universe - it could have been created in 6 very long periods.

Point No.2 - Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…‘Light was created on the first day.’ Genesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The cause of light - stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’.  How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day - later than the light which came into existence on the first day? - It is unscientific.

Point No.3 - Further, the, Bible says Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ?  The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day? 

Point No..4 - Genesis, Ch. No. 1 Verses 9 to 13 says… ‘Earth was created on the third day.’  Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses 14 to 19 says…‘The Sun and the Moon were created on the fourth day.’ Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’ It cannot come into existence before the sun – It is unscientific.

Point No. 5 - The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees - they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verses. 14 to 19, was created on the 4th day. How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight ?

Point No.6 - The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses No.16, that…‘God created two lights the greater light, the Sun to rule the day, and the lesser light the Moon, to rule the night. The actual translation, if you go to the Hebrew text, it is ‘lamps’…‘Lamps having lights of its own.’ And that you will come to know better, if you read both the Verses – Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse. 16, as well as 17. Verse No.17 says…‘And Almighty God placed them in the firmament, to give light to the earth…  To give light to the earth.’ Indicating, that Sun and the Moon has its own light - which is in contradiction with established scientific knowledge that we have. There are certain people who try and reconciliate, and say that the six days mentioned in the Bible, it actually refers to epocs - like the Qur’an long periods - not six, 24 hour day. It is illogical - you read in the Bible, evening, morning - It clearly states 24 hours, it indicates. But even if I use the concordance approach - no problem. I agree with your illogical argument - Yet they will only be able to solve the 1st scientific error of 6 days creation, and second, of first day ‘light’ and 3rd day ‘earth.’ The remaining four, yet they cannot solve. Some further say that… ‘If it is a 24-hour period, why cannot the vegetables survive for one 24 hour day without sunlight?’ I say ‘Fine - If you say that the vegetables were created before the sun, and can survive for one 24-hour day, I have got no objection. But you cannot say the days mentioned are 24 hours as well as epochs - You cannot have the cake and eat it, both. If you say it is long period, you solve Point No.1 and 3, the remaining 4 are yet there. If you say the days are 24 hours day, you solve only Point No.5 - the remaining 5 are yet there - It becomes unscientific. I leave it to Dr. William Campbell, whether he wants to say… ‘It is long period’, and say that there are only 4 scientific errors - or say… ‘It is a 24 hour day’, and say there is only 5 scientific errors in the creation of the universe.

Point No. 7 - Regarding the concept of Earth, there are various Scientists who have described… ‘How will the world end.’ Hypothesis - Some may be right, some may be wrong. But either the world will perish or the world will live forever. Both cannot take place simultaneously – It is unscientific. But this is exactly what the Bible says. It is mentioned in the Bible, in the book of Hebrews, Ch. No.1 Verses No.10 and 11, and the book of Psalms, Ch. No.102, Verse No.25 and 26, that…‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, and they will perish.’ Exactly opposite is mentioned in the book of Ecclesiastics, Ch. No.1, Verse No.4, and the book of Psalms, Ch. No.78, Verse No.69, that… ‘The earth will abide forever.’ I leave it to Dr. William Campbell to choose which of the two Verses are unscientific - the first pair or the second pair. One has to be unscientific - Both cannot take place. The world cannot abide forever as well as perish – It is unscientific.

Point No. 8 - Regarding ‘the Heavens’, the Bible says in Job, Ch. 26, Verse 11, that…‘The pillars of the Heaven will tremble.’ Qur’an says in Surah Luqman, Ch. 31, Verse No.10, that…‘The Heavens are without any pillars - Don`t you see? Don’t you see the Heavens are without any pillars? -  Bible says heaven have got pillars.

Point No. 9 - Not only do the Heavens have got pillars - Bible says in the first book of Samuel, Ch. No.2 Verses No.8, as well as the book of Job Ch. No.9, Verse No.6, and the book of Psalms Ch. No.75, Verse No.3, that… ‘Even the earth have got pillars.’

Point No. 10 - In the field of ‘Diet and Nutrition’ lets analyse, what does the Bible say. The Bible says in the book of Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No.29, that… ‘God has given you all the herbs bearing seeds, the trees bearing fruits - those that bear seed, as meat for you.’ New International Version says… ‘The seed bearing plants, and the trees bearing fruits bearing seeds are food for you, all of them.’ Today, even a layman knows that there are several poisonous plants like wild berries, stritchi, datura, plants containing alkaloid, polyander, bacaipoid - that which if you ingest, if you eat there are high possibilities you may die. How come the Creator of the universe and the human beings, does not know, that if you have these plants, you will die. I hope Dr. William Campbell does not give these vegetarian diet to his patients.

Point No. 11 - The Bible has a scientific test how to identify a true believer. It is mentioned in the Gospel of  Mark, Ch. No.16, Verse No.17 and 18 -  It says that… ‘There will be signs for true believers and among the signs - In my name they shall cast out devils,  they shall speak foreign tongues, new tongues,  they shall take up serpents - And if they drink deadly poison, they shall not be harmed - And when they place their hand over the sick, they shall be cured.’ This is a scientific test - In scientific terminology, it is known as the ‘confirmatory test’ for a true Christian believer. In the past 10 years of my life, I have personally interacted with thousands of Christians, including missionaries - I have not come across a single Christian, who has passed this confirmatory test of the Bible. I have not come across a single Christian who took poison - I have not come across any who took poison, and who has not died. And in scientific terminology, this is also called as the ‘falsification test’ That means if a false person tries and does this test… takes poison, he will die. And a false person will not dare attempt this test - If you are not a true Christian believer, you will not dare attempt this test. Because you try and attempt the falsification test, you will fail. So a person who is not a true Christian believer, will never attempt this test. I have read the book ‘The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of history and science’ written by Dr. William Campbell. And I assume - that he is a true Christian believer, and at least I would like him to confirm to me about the falsification test. Please be rest assured…  Please be rest assured,  I will not ask Dr. William Campbell to have deadly poison - Because I don’t want to jeopardize the debate. What I’ll do - I will only ask him to speak in foreign tongues…  In new languages. And as many of you may be aware that India is a land, which has more than 1000 languages and dialects. Only thing I request him is, to say these 3 words… ‘One hundred rupees’, in the 17 official languages. There are only 17 official languages in India and to make it easier for Dr. William Campbell, I have got a ‘One hundred-rupee note.’ And this has all the 17 languages mentioned here. Besides English and Hindi, I will help him.  I give him a beginning –‘Ek sav rupaiya, In Hindi. The remaining 15 languages are here - I request him to read. I know the test says… ‘They will speak foreign languages on their own, without the help of reading’ - but I want to make the test easier, I want to see someone passing the test - I’ve not seen any one. So if he cannot say it on his own, or from his memory, at least read it. I don’t mind I’ll accept it. And I would request the chairperson to give it to Dr. William Campbell. He has his rebuttal - 15 languages, ‘Ek sav rupaiya’… 3 words only. What does the Bible say regarding ‘Hydrology’? Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.9, Verse No.13 to 17, that… ‘After God, at the time of Noah submerged the world by flood, and after the flood’ subsided, He said… ‘I put up a rainbow in the sky as a promise to the humankind never to submerge the world again, by water. To the unscientific person it may be quite good…  ‘Oh rainbow is a sign of Almighty God, never to submerge the world by flood again.’ But today we know very well, that rainbow is due to the refraction of sunlight, with rain or mist. Surely there must have been thousands of rainbows before the time of Noah, peace be upon him. To say it was not there before Noah’s time you have to assume that the law of refraction did not exist - which is unscientific.’

Point No. 12 - In the field of medicine, the Bible says in the book of Leveticus, Ch. No.14, Verse No.49 to 53 - it gives a novel way for disinfecting a house from plague ofleprosy…  disinfecting a house from plague of leprosy. It says that… ‘Take two birds, kill one bird, take wood, scale it - and the other living bird, dip it in water… and under running water - later on sprinkle the house 7 times with it. Sprinkle the house with blood to disinfect against plague of leprosy? You know blood is a good media of germs, bacteria, as well as toxin - I hope Dr. William Campbell does not use this method of disinfecting the OT, the operation theatre.

Point No. 13 - It is mentioned in the book of Leveticus, Ch. No.12, Verse No.1 to 5, and we know medically, that after a mother gives birth to a child, the post-partal period, it is unhygienic. To say it is ‘unclean’, Religiously - I have got no objection. But Leviticus, Ch. No.12 Verse No.1 to 5, says that… ‘After a woman gives birth to a male child, she will be unclean for 7 days, and the period of uncleanliness will continue for 33 days more. If she gives birth to a female child, she will be unclean for two weeks, and the period of uncleanliness will continue for 66 days. In short, if a woman gives birth to a male child… ‘a son’, she is  unclean for 40 days. If she gives birth to a female child… ‘a daughter’, she is unclean for 80 days. I would like Dr. William Campbell to explain to me scientifically, how come a woman remains unclean for double the period, if she gives birth to a female child, as compared to a male child.

Point No. 14 - The Bible also has a very good test for adultery - How to come to know a woman has committed adultery. In the book of Numbers, Ch. no.5 Verse No..11 to 31, I’ll just say in brief, it says that… ‘The priest should take holy water in a vessel,  take dust from the floor, and put it into the vessel - And that is the bitter water ‘And after cursing it, give it to the woman And if the woman has committed adultery, after she drinks it, the curse will enter her body, the stomach will swell, the thigh will rot, and she shall be cursed by the people. If the woman has not committed adultery, she will remain clean and she will bear the seed. A novel method of identifying whether a woman has committed adultery or not. You know today in the world, there are thousands of cases pending in different parts of the world, in different courts of law - only on the assumption that someone has alleged that a woman has committed adultery. I had read in the newspapers, and I came to know from the media, that the President of this great country Mr. Bill Clinton, he was involved in a sex scandal about 2 years back. I wonder, that why did not the American court use this ‘bitter water test’ for adultery? He would have gone scot-free immediately. Why did not the Christian missionaries of this great country, specially those who are in the medical field like my respected Dr. William Campbell, use this bitter water test to bail out their President, immediately.

Point No. 15 - ‘Mathematics’ is a branch, which is closely associated with science, with which you can solve problems, etc. There are thousands of contradictions in the Bible - hundreds deal with mathematics, and I’ll first touch on few of them. It is mentioned in Ezra, Ch. No.2, Verse No.1, and Nehemiah, Ch. No.7, Verse No.6, the context that… ‘When the people returned from exile, from Babylon, when king Nebucheldeser of Babylon, when he released the men from Israel, they came back from captivity’ - and the list of the people are given. The list is given in Ezra, Ch. No.2, Verse No.2 to 63, and Nehemiah Ch. No.7, Verse No.7 up to 65; the list is given with the names as well as number of people released. In these 60 Verses there are no less than 18 times - the name is exactly the same but the number is different. There are no less than 18 contradictions in less than 60 Verses, of these two Chapters. This is the list - I don’t have time to run through the list - There are no less than 18 different contradictions in less than 60 Verses.

Point No. 16 - Further it is mentioned in Ezra, Ch. No.2 Verse No.64 that… ‘The total congregation, if you add up… if you add up, it comes to 42,360.’ And if you read in Nehemiah, Ch. No.7, Verse No.66, there also the total is the same 42,360. But if you add up all these verses - which I had to do my homework - this is the list of Ezra… this is the list of Nehemiah. Ezra Ch. No 2, Nehemiah  Ch. No 7 - If you add up - I had to do my homework…if you add up, Ezra Ch. No. 2 - It does not come to 42,360 - it comes to 29,818. And if you add up Nehemiah, Ch. No. 7, even then it does not come to 42,360 - It comes to 31,089. The author of the Bible, presumed to be ‘Almighty God’, does not know simple addition. If you give this problem, even to a person who has passed elementary school, he will be able to get the right answer. If you add up all the 60 Verses, it is so easy. Almighty God did not know adding – Nauzubillah… if we presume, that this is the word of God.

Point No. 17 - Further, if we read, in Ezra Ch. No. 2, Verse No. 65, it says…There were 200 singing men and women - Nehemiah Ch. No. 7, Verse No. 67…‘There were 245 singing men and women.’ Were they 200 - or were they 245 singing men and women? Context is the same - A mathematical contradiction.

Point No. 18 - It is mentioned in the 2nd Kings, Ch. No 24, Verse No 8, that…‘Jehoiachin was 18 years old, when he began to reign Jerusalem, and he reigned for 3 months and 10 days. 2nd Chronicles, Ch. No 36, Verse No 9, says that…‘Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign and he reigned for 3 months, 10 days. Was Jehoiachin 18 years when he began to reign, or was he 8 years old?

Point No. 19 - Did he reign for 3 months, or did he reign for 3 months 10 days?

Point No. 20 - Further, it is mentioned in the 1st Kings, Ch. No 7, Verse No 26, that…‘In Solomon’s temple, in his molten sea, he had 2000 baths. In 2nd Chronicles, Ch. No 4, Verse No 5, he had 3000 baths. Did he have 2000 baths or did he have 3000 baths? – That, I leave it upon Dr. William Campbell to decide which is correct. There is a clear-cut mathematical contradiction.

Point No. 21 - Furthermore. it is mentioned in the First Kings, Ch. No. 15, Verse No. 33, that… ‘Basha, he died in the 26th year of reign of Asa.’ And 2nd Chronicles Ch. No 16, Verse No 1, says that…‘Basha invaded Judah in the 36th years of the reign of Asa.’ How can Basha invade 10 years after his death?  - It is unscientific.

(Point No. 22 - Almighty God - He said, “I put up a rainbow in the sky, as a promise to the human kind, never to submerge the world again by water”.)

 

To make it easier for Dr. William Campbell, to answer the points I have raised, I will just mention them in brief .

The points that I mentioned :

The first point was that -‘The creation of the Earth and the Heaven - the universe was in six, 24-hour days.

Point No. 2 - Light was then before the source of light.

Point No. 3 - Day came into existence before creation of Earth.

Point No. 4 - Earth came into existence before Sun.

Point No. 5 - Vegetation came into existence, before sunlight

Point No. 6 - Light of the Moon is its own light.

Point No. 7 - The earth - Will it perish or will it abide forever?

Point No. 8 - The heavens have got pillars.

Point No. 9 - The earth has got pillars.

Point No. 10 - God said… ‘You can have all plants and all vegetation, including the poisonous plants?’

Point No. 11 - The scientific test the falsification test, of Mark, Ch. No. 16, Verse No. 17 and 18.

Point No. 13 - Using blood to disinfect the house, against plague of leprosy.

Point No. 12 - A woman remains unclean for double the period, if she gives birth to a daughter, as compared to a son.

Point No. 14 – How do you find out the bitter water test for adultery?

Point No. 15 - Eighteen different contradictions in less than 60 Verses of Ezra, Ch. 2, and Nehemiah, Ch. 7. I did not count them as 18 different - I counted them only as one.

Point No. 16 - The total is different is both the chapters.

Point No. 17 - Are there 200 singing men and women, or are there 245 singing men and women?

Point No. 18 - Was Jehoiachin 18 years old, or was he 8 years old when he began to reign?

Point No. 19 - Did he reign for 3 months, or 3 months 10 days.

Point No. 20 - Did Solomon have 3000 baths, or 2000 baths?

Point No. 21 - Is that Basha, how could he invade Judah, 10 years after his death?

Point No. 22 is - Almighty God - He said, “I put up a rainbow in the sky, as a promise to the human kind, never to submerge the world again by water”.

 

 

@ muhammadalfatih

And your point is?

All that i can see is confirmation of my original augument. One can quote from the bible etc many things to prove or disprove an augument. Plus most of your quotes come from the Old Testament, Has i said, apart from the 10 commandments i take with a pince of salt.

You quote in pt 11 from Mark, Most Christians probably think that picking up poisonous serpents and drinking poison as proof of being a Christian, would agree with you as being a load of twaddle. If you want to see how a true Christian should just read the Book of James.

As i have said before, in most things you read you must look for there meanings in todays world, using logic, your own knowledge and experience of life. God gave man free will to use his own brain and not to follow blindly what others tell him.

As James-the brother of Jesus- said, "by their actions you will know them". Not by blindly following man made rules like the Pharisees who tried to show how well they tried to follow the letter of the Law, yet failed to follow the spirit 

 

 

 

@ muhammadalfatih

[first of all your quotation are poorly done this is not how you do it i'll show you in this post how to do it]

@ As i see it

Muhammadalfatih, you are being picky and pedantic, but i shall let it pass, it just goes to prove that people see and do things in their own way.

@ muhammadalfatih

[jesus was a man like me and you a man cannot be the creator, your bible also claims your god transformed himself into a dove another flaw imagine a creator being equal to a animal which is inferior to, this is where you christians are flawed to begin with your concept of the creator is flawed, your god is a human being like me jesus who himself commited sins how is he going to forgive and repent for others and guide others when he himself commtied major sins such as disrespecting his own parents and other

so jesus is not god he is just a man second in your bible jesus himself never says his god you say that so your not even a proper christian

second i said uneducated kafir so i mean your uneducated in islam, you might be a docotor or hold a phd but still uneducated in islam]

@ As i see it

Yes Jesus was a man created in God's image. He called God his father, He also said that those who have seen me have seen the father. He also used the term "i am" which was a Jewish name for Yawah. But his main purpose was to show by example how we should live together. In peace and truth. He also said that we can all be the sons of God, not physical sons but adopted sons by following his example.

Within all of mankind is the ability to create a heaven or hell on this earth, does not prove that each of us have a part of God within us? We all have choices.

Yes i am uneducated in Islam, more educated then the average kafir in Islam, but not as educated in Islam as the average Muslim. 

To learn more i am reading through the revival site to try to gain a better understanding. Like it or not Muslims and Christians will have to get along. I can't see the majority of Muslims becoming Christians, nor Christians becoming Muslims. Which is a fact we shall have to learn to live with.

@ muhammadalfatih

[new testement is more flawed then the old testement in the next post i will show you some, but before that do speak hebrew or greek and also i wanted to know from you what language did jesus speak]

@ As i see it

Totally agree, as both are written by man, who are influenced by what they see and hear and man is not perfect. I do not speak Greek or Hebrew, but i can use a google translator Wink As for the language jesus spoke, his daily launguage was Aramaic, but he was probably fluent in Hebrew, O! and yes he was a Jew.

@ muhammedalfatih

[if you believe in jesus then you must believe in the final prophet muhammad saw, or your not a true follower of jesus, rather a false follower, as i said follow jesus/isa as properly or dont do not pick and choose]

@ As i see it

Wrong totaly; to believe in jesus i do not have to believe in the final prophet Muhammad. That is your right as a Muslim to believe that, but it his my right as a Christian to dissagree.

[Caliph Umar’s peaceful entry to Jerusalem 14 centuries ago By Latheef Farook.]

@ As i see it

Yes it was a peaceful entry, the complete opposite to what happened when the first Crusaders captured Jerusalem, then they were not much better when they entered Constantinople. Lots of attrocities have been commited by religious wars. Christianity as been divided into Catholics and Protestants who down the years caused much destruction and mayhen in Europe. Then again Islam is not one religion. They have dissagreed and have split up into two Shia and Sunni, and again have caused much destruction and mayhem in the Middle-east and Persia.

At least Christians have learned to get along and left behind the religious conflicts and acept our failings. Which is something the Muslims are going to have to do at some point.

@ muhammedalfatih

[majaority of your people supported it, only the minority went against it and protested against it so dont exegerate

as for muslims speaking against isis you may want to go on youtube and islam21c website to see the amount of people and scholars speaking agaisnt isis]

@ As i see it

We had 1000's on the streets declaring no war in Iraq, the majority just acepted that our leaders would have done it anyay, But that is  parliamentary democracy for you. But at least we managed to stop NATO bombing Syria, but failed in Libya. Libya is still in turmoil and Syria even though NATO at first did not get involved is still in turmoil with countless innocent people being killed and having to flee both Assad, anti-Assad forces and ISIS.

As for Islam21c i can only find one article, as it states how can you protest against ISIS which is a gang of Islamic criminals armed by the west? and doing the wests bidding. Also if/when ISIS fighters return they should be treated as criminals. I hope the Muslim population will support you on that one, but i fear that we might have protest if the west does.

By the way i totaly agree with the last three para's in the link above. If all people were to be treated equaly [regardless of religion, race or gender] by the secular authorities it would stop most problems. Then again, what some people think of as criminal acts is subject to their upbringing and the society that they live in. But that is another problem.

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/middle-east/syria/protests-on-streets-a...

 

 

 

 

@mohammedatfatih:

"like me and you" is dangerous language when talking about prophets of God.

Khalid Ibn Walid (ra) considered refering to the prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam (Peace and Blessings be upon him) as a "companion" to be apostasy.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
@mohammedatfatih:

"like me and you" is dangerous language when talking about prophets of God.

Khalid Ibn Walid (ra) considered refering to the prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam (Peace and Blessings be upon him) as a "companion" to be apostasy.

it is not dangerous aadam as what was he a human being he has been declared he first human created and everyone are his descendants, so muhammad saw a son of aadam as what does that make him, in creation he is human like us but obviously he is a prophet so he is far superior, just like my father is a human like me is he equal to me no his my father how can i be equal to my father, in terms of creation he is a human like me but superior in status, muhammad saw type of creation human but he is far superior to me he is a prophet the best of creation and son of aadam as

second show us the post where i said this 

for khalid ra i need you to show me the narration he says that as as usual sufis are never to be trusted in these matters especially in narrations 

 

As i see it wrote:
@ muhammadalfatih

And your point is?

All that i can see is confirmation of my original augument. One can quote from the bible etc many things to prove or disprove an augument. Plus most of your quotes come from the Old Testament, Has i said, apart from the 10 commandments i take with a pince of salt.

You quote in pt 11 from Mark, Most Christians probably think that picking up poisonous serpents and drinking poison as proof of being a Christian, would agree with you as being a load of twaddle. If you want to see how a true Christian should just read the Book of James.

As i have said before, in most things you read you must look for there meanings in todays world, using logic, your own knowledge and experience of life. God gave man free will to use his own brain and not to follow blindly what others tell him.

As James-the brother of Jesus- said, "by their actions you will know them". Not by blindly following man made rules like the Pharisees who tried to show how well they tried to follow the letter of the Law, yet failed to follow the spirit 

 

 

 

again you ahve proven youa re not a true christian as you pick and choose so havin  debate with you on christianity is pointless, as you only claim your a christian inr eality you are not you jsut pick and choose 

epistle of james doesnt do bible any further it is just another error of bible:

There is a book called the “Epistle,” which means a letter from John. And this is not John the Baptist, not John the Gospeler or somebody named John; we don't even know who it is. Chapter 5, verse 7 says; “there are three that bear witness in heaven, the father, the son, and the spirit and these three are one.” But that verse was added about 800 years ago. It was never there before. It’s a remake of the verse before it, they took the verse before it and restated it. The verse before, verse number 6, still there today, it says “there are three that bear witness (it doesn’t say in heaven); the father, the spirit and the blood. And these three agree.” They don’t say that they are one. So that's what that came from. The reference I will give you is from the Christian evangelists and scholar of the Bible of the New Testament. His name is F.F. Bruce. One of the biggest scholars of the Bible and that's what he said. And it's on our websites www.BibleIslam.com

Sheikh Yusuf Estes

fact of the matter is bible says earth is flat and poison test of christians but for christians they know there book is flawed so they created excuses and lies you are using to escape this 

you claim bible doesnt mean this or that look at bibles steps of creating the universe it flawed such as light being created before its source, can the light of bubl be created before the bulb

your excuse will be bible doesnt mean that if thats your point dont bother responding as everyone can see it is a joke reply 

by their action you will know, you are right by your action it is obvious you are not a true christian 

 

As i see it wrote:
@ muhammadalfatih

[first of all your quotation are poorly done this is not how you do it i'll show you in this post how to do it]

@ As i see it

Muhammadalfatih, you are being picky and pedantic, but i shall let it pass, it just goes to prove that people see and do things in their own way.

@ muhammadalfatih

[jesus was a man like me and you a man cannot be the creator, your bible also claims your god transformed himself into a dove another flaw imagine a creator being equal to a animal which is inferior to, this is where you christians are flawed to begin with your concept of the creator is flawed, your god is a human being like me jesus who himself commited sins how is he going to forgive and repent for others and guide others when he himself commtied major sins such as disrespecting his own parents and other

so jesus is not god he is just a man second in your bible jesus himself never says his god you say that so your not even a proper christian

second i said uneducated kafir so i mean your uneducated in islam, you might be a docotor or hold a phd but still uneducated in islam]

@ As i see it

Yes Jesus was a man created in God's image. He called God his father, He also said that those who have seen me have seen the father. He also used the term "i am" which was a Jewish name for Yawah. But his main purpose was to show by example how we should live together. In peace and truth. He also said that we can all be the sons of God, not physical sons but adopted sons by following his example.

Within all of mankind is the ability to create a heaven or hell on this earth, does not prove that each of us have a part of God within us? We all have choices.

Yes i am uneducated in Islam, more educated then the average kafir in Islam, but not as educated in Islam as the average Muslim. 

To learn more i am reading through the revival site to try to gain a better understanding. Like it or not Muslims and Christians will have to get along. I can't see the majority of Muslims becoming Christians, nor Christians becoming Muslims. Which is a fact we shall have to learn to live with.

@ muhammadalfatih

[new testement is more flawed then the old testement in the next post i will show you some, but before that do speak hebrew or greek and also i wanted to know from you what language did jesus speak]

@ As i see it

Totally agree, as both are written by man, who are influenced by what they see and hear and man is not perfect. I do not speak Greek or Hebrew, but i can use a google translator Wink As for the language jesus spoke, his daily launguage was Aramaic, but he was probably fluent in Hebrew, O! and yes he was a Jew.

@ muhammedalfatih

[if you believe in jesus then you must believe in the final prophet muhammad saw, or your not a true follower of jesus, rather a false follower, as i said follow jesus/isa as properly or dont do not pick and choose]

@ As i see it

Wrong totaly; to believe in jesus i do not have to believe in the final prophet Muhammad. That is your right as a Muslim to believe that, but it his my right as a Christian to dissagree.

[Caliph Umar’s peaceful entry to Jerusalem 14 centuries ago By Latheef Farook.]

@ As i see it

Yes it was a peaceful entry, the complete opposite to what happened when the first Crusaders captured Jerusalem, then they were not much better when they entered Constantinople. Lots of attrocities have been commited by religious wars. Christianity as been divided into Catholics and Protestants who down the years caused much destruction and mayhen in Europe. Then again Islam is not one religion. They have dissagreed and have split up into two Shia and Sunni, and again have caused much destruction and mayhem in the Middle-east and Persia.

At least Christians have learned to get along and left behind the religious conflicts and acept our failings. Which is something the Muslims are going to have to do at some point.

@ muhammedalfatih

[majaority of your people supported it, only the minority went against it and protested against it so dont exegerate

as for muslims speaking against isis you may want to go on youtube and islam21c website to see the amount of people and scholars speaking agaisnt isis]

@ As i see it

We had 1000's on the streets declaring no war in Iraq, the majority just acepted that our leaders would have done it anyay, But that is  parliamentary democracy for you. But at least we managed to stop NATO bombing Syria, but failed in Libya. Libya is still in turmoil and Syria even though NATO at first did not get involved is still in turmoil with countless innocent people being killed and having to flee both Assad, anti-Assad forces and ISIS.

As for Islam21c i can only find one article, as it states how can you protest against ISIS which is a gang of Islamic criminals armed by the west? and doing the wests bidding. Also if/when ISIS fighters return they should be treated as criminals. I hope the Muslim population will support you on that one, but i fear that we might have protest if the west does.

By the way i totaly agree with the last three para's in the link above. If all people were to be treated equaly [regardless of religion, race or gender] by the secular authorities it would stop most problems. Then again, what some people think of as criminal acts is subject to their upbringing and the society that they live in. But that is another problem.

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/middle-east/syria/protests-on-streets-a...

 

 

your responses are nonsense as its difficult to read like

first of all jesus didnt speak a work of hebrew he only spoke aramaic your own priests and popes confirmed this 

 

with this your whole argument is now over, jesus didnt speak hebrew you ahve no bible in aramaic so this means you dont even have the original words of jesus you ahve man made books claiming jesus said this or that but you dont have any knowledge from jesus, you say you agree bible is man made, so you ahve just admitted you are not following a religion from the creator but from man? 

with bible being confirmed manmade your religion is manmade and is not from the cretor so this makes it a false religion and destroys all your argument you ahve shot yourself in your head with this 

as for shia sunni shia came into existence way later and only 10 percent are shia which clearly shows they came later on into existence are declared false, ali ra the very man they worship declared them kafir and he even executed many of them so your argument is as flawed as your bible 

the war in syria is still continuing so are the bombing so you are equally as clueless to whats happening in this world like a typical kafir 

as for islam21c i dont know if your acting dumb:

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/conclusive-scholarly-opinions-on-isis/

http://www.islam21c.com/tag/isis/

http://www.islam21c.com/?s=isis

 

 

As i see it wrote:
@ muhammadalfatih

And your point is?

All that i can see is confirmation of my original augument. One can quote from the bible etc many things to prove or disprove an augument. Plus most of your quotes come from the Old Testament, Has i said, apart from the 10 commandments i take with a pince of salt.

You quote in pt 11 from Mark, Most Christians probably think that picking up poisonous serpents and drinking poison as proof of being a Christian, would agree with you as being a load of twaddle. If you want to see how a true Christian should just read the Book of James.

As i have said before, in most things you read you must look for there meanings in todays world, using logic, your own knowledge and experience of life. God gave man free will to use his own brain and not to follow blindly what others tell him.

As James-the brother of Jesus- said, "by their actions you will know them". Not by blindly following man made rules like the Pharisees who tried to show how well they tried to follow the letter of the Law, yet failed to follow the spirit 

 

 

10116: Muhammad (peace be upon him) in the bible

Did Muhammad (peace be upon him) was mentioned in the bible?.

Praise be to Allaah. 

Muhammad(Peace Be Upon Him)in the bible

Bible prophecies about the  advent of muhammad 

Abraham is widely regarded  as the Patriarch of monotheism and the common father of the Jews, Christians and Muslims. Through his second son, Isaac, came all Israelite prophet including such towering figures as Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus. May peace and blessing be upon them all. The advent of these great prophets was in partial fulfillment of God’s promises to bless the nations of earth through the descendents of Abraham (Genesis 12:2-3). Such fulfillment is wholeheartedly accepted by Muslims whose faith considers the belief in and respect of all prophets an article of faith. 

BLESSING OF ISHMAEL AND ISAAC 

Was the first born son of Abraham (Ishmael) and his descendants icluded in God’s covenant and promise? A few verses from the Bible may help shed some light on this question : 

Genesis 12:2-3 speaks of God’s promise to Abraham and his descendants before any child was born to him.

Genesis 17:4 reiterates God’s promise after the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac.

In Genesis, ch.21. Isaac is specifically blessed but Ishmael was also specifically blessed and promised by God to become “ a great nation” especially in Genesis 21:13, 18.

According to Deuteronomy 21:15-17 the traditional rights and privileges of the first born son are not to be affected by the social status of his mother (being a ‘free’ woman such as Sarah, Isaac’s mother, or a “Bondwoman” such as Hagar, Ishmael’s mother). This is only consistent with the moral and humanitarian principles of all revealed faiths.

The full legitimacy of Ismael as Abraham’s son and “seed” and the full legitimacy of his mother, Hagar, as Abraham’s wife are clearly stated in Genesis 21:13 and 16:3.

 After Jesus, the last Israelite messenger and prophet, it was time that God’s promise to bless Ismael and his descendants be fulfilled. Less than 600 years after Jesus, came the last messenger of God, Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) , from the progency of Abraham through Ishmael. God’s blessing of both of the main branches of Abraham’s family tree was now fulfilled. But are there additional corroborating evidence that the Bible did in fact foretell the advent of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him)?

 MUHAMMAD (Peace be Upon Him):

The Prophet Like Unto Moses

 Long time after Abraham, God’s promise to send the long-awaited Messenger was repeated this time in Moses’ word.

 In Deuteronomy 18:18, Moses spoke of the prophet to be sent by God who is :

From among the Israelite’s “brethren” a reference to their Ishmaelite cousins as Ishmael was the other son of Abraham who was explicitly promised to become a “great nation”.

A prophet like unto Moses. There were hardly any two prophets who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad. Both were given comprehensive law code of life, both encountered their enemies and were victors in miraculous ways, both were accepted as prophets/statesmen and both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlooks not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well (e.g. the natural birth, family life and death of Moses and Muhammad but no of Jesus, who was regarded by His followers as the Son of God and not exclusively a messenger of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslim belief Jesus was).

 THE AWAITED PROPHET WAS TO COME FROM ARABIA

 Deuteronomy 33:1-2 combines references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God (i.e. God’s revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa’ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran.

According to Genesis 21:21, the wilder-ness of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled (i.e. Arabia, specifically Mecca). 

Indeed the King James version of the Bible mentions the pilgrims passing through the valley of Ba’ca (another name of Mecca) in Psalms 84:4-6. 

Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who “shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth.” Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke’dar. Who is Ke’dar? According to Genesis 25:13, Ke’dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of the prophet Muhammad. 

MUHAMMAD’S MIGRATION FROM MECCA TO MEDINA : PROPHECIED IN THE BIBLE? 

Habakkuk 3:3 speaks of God (God’s help) coming from Te’man. (an Oasis North of Medina according to J. Hasting’s Dictionary of the Bible), and the holy one (coming) from Paran. That holy one who under persecution migrated from Paran (Mecca) to be received enthusiastically in Medina  was none but prophet Muhammad. 

Indeed the incident of the migration of the prophet and his persecuted followers is vividly described in Isaiah 21:13-17. that section forerold as well about the battel of Badr in which the few ill-armed faithfull miraculously defeated the “mighty” men of Ke’dar, who sought to destroy Islam and intimidate their own folks who turned to Islam. 

THE QUR’AN (KORAN) FORETOLD IN THE BIBLE? 

For twenty-three years, God’s word (the Qur’an) were truely put into Muhammad’s mouth. He was not the “author” of the Qur’an. The Qur’an was dictated to him by Angel Gabriel who asked Muhammad to simply repeat the words of the Qur’an as he heard them. These words were then committed to memory and to writing by those who hear them during Muhammad’s life time and under his supervision. 

Was it a coincidence that the prophet “like unto Moses” from the “brethren” of the Israelites (i.e. from the Ishmaelites) was also described as one in whose mouth God will put his words and that he will speak in the name of God., (Duteronomy 18:18-20). Was it also a coincidence the “Paraclete” thet Jesus foretold to come after Him was described as one who “shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak.. “(John 16:13). 

Was it another coincidence that Isaiah ties between the messenger connected with Ke’dar and a new song (a scripture in a new language) to be sang unto the Lord (Isaiah 42:10-11). More explicitly, prophesies Isaiah “ for with stammering lips, and another tongue, will he speak to this people” (Isaiah 28:11). This latter verse correctly describes the “stammering lips” of Prophet Muhammad reflecting the state of tension and concentration he went through at the time of revelation. Another related point is that the Qur’an was revealed in piece-meals over a span of twenty-three years. It is interisting to compare this with Isaiah 28:10 which speaks of the same thing. 

THAT PROPHET – PARACLETE – MUHAMMAD 

Up to the time of Jesus, the Israelites were still awaiting for that prophet like unto Moses prophecied in Deuteronomy 18:18. when John the Baptist came, they asked him if he was Christ and he said “No”. they asked him if he was Elias and he said “No”. then, in apparent reference to Deuteronomy 18:18, they asked him “Art thou that Prophet” and he answered, “No”. (John 1:19-21). 

In the Gospel according to John (Chapters 14, 15, 16) Jesus spoke of the “ Paraclete” or comporter who will come after him, who will be sent by Father as another Paraclete, who will teach new things which the contemporaries of Jesus could not bear. While the Paraclete is described as the spirit of truth (whose meaning resemble Muhammad’s famous title Al-Amin, the trustworthy), he is identified in one verse as the Holy Ghost (John 14:26). Such a designation is however incosistent with the profile of that Paraclete. In the words of the Dictionary of the Bible, (Ed. J. Mackenzie) “ These items, it must be admitted do not give an entirely coherent picture.” 

Indeed history tells us that many early Christians understood the Paraclete to be a man and not a spirit. This might explain the followings who responded to some who claimed, without meeting the criteria stipulated by Jesus, to be the awaited “Paraclete”. 

It was Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) who was the Paraclete, Comforter, helper, admonisher sent by God after Jesus. He testified of Jesus, taught new things which could not be borne at Jesus’ time, he spoke what he heard (revelation), he dwells with the believers (through his well-preserved teachings). Such teachings will remain forever because he was the last messenger of God, the only Universal Messenger to unite the whole of humanity under God and on the path of PRESERVED truth. He told of many things to come which “came to pass” in the minutest detail meeting, the criterion given by Moses to distinguish between the true prophet and the false prophets (Deuteronomy 18:22). He did reprove the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgement (John 16:8-11). 

WAS THE SHIFT OF RELIGIUS LEADERSHIP PROPHECIED? 

Following the rejection of the last Israelite prophet, Jesus, it was about time that God’s promise to make Ishmael a great nation be fulfilled (Genesis 21:13, 18). 

In Matthew 21:19-21, Jesus spoke of the fruitless fig tree (A Biblical symbol of prophetic heritage) to be cleared after being given a last chance of three years (the duration of Jesus’ ministry) to give fruit. In a later verse in the same chapter, Jesus said : “Therefore, say I unto you, the Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to nation bringing forth the fruit thereof” (Matthew 21:43). That nation of Ishmael’s descendants (the rejected stone in Matthew 21 :42) which was victorious against all super-powers of its time as prophecied by Jesus : “ And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken, but  on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21:44). 

OUT OF CONTEXT COINCIDENCE? 

Is it possible that the numerous prophecies cited here are all individually and combined out of contect misinterpretations? is the opposite true, that such infrequently studied verses fit together consistently and clearly point to the advent of the man who changed the course of human history, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him). Is it reasonable to conclude that all these prophecies, appearing in different books of the Bible and spoken by various prophets at different times were all coinsidence? If this is so here is another strange “coincidence”! 

One of the signs of the prophet to come from Paran (Mecca) is that he will come with “ten thousands of saints” (Deuteronomy 33:2 KJV). That was the number of faithful who accompanied Prophet Muhammad to Paran (Mecca) in his victorious, bloodless return to his birthplace, to destroy the remaining symbols of idolatry in the Ka’bah. 

Says God as quated by Moses : 

          And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 18:19). 

Dear Readers:

May the light of truth shine in your heart and mind. May it lead you to peace and certitude in this life and eternal bliss in hereafter.

AMEEN . 

Islam Q&A 
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

 

@ muhammadalfatih

[ again you ahve proven youa re not a true christian as you pick and choose so havin  debate with you on christianity is pointless, as you only claim your a christian inr eality you are not you jsut pick and choose ]

@ As i see it

If i was not to pick and choose, as you say, then i would drink poison, pick up poisonous snakes too prove that i was a Christian. No all that would prove was that i am stupid and follow blindly. As i have said "God has given man a brain and free will"

@ muhammadalfatih

[ There is a book called the “Epistle,” which means a letter from John. And this is not John the Baptist, not John the Gospeler or somebody named John; we don't even know who it is. Chapter 5, verse 7 says; “there are three that bear witness in heaven, the father, the son, and the spirit and these three are one.” But that verse was added about 800 years ago. ]

@ As i see it

Correct, I have said that the bible was written by men, based on their thoughts on what they see and hear around them, This just proves that Christians are able to discuss freely their religion, evolve. and adapt to life today not remain in the past.

Regarding the Trinity or Three in One, "The Father, Son and Holy Ghost". This was confirmed by the Christians as the Nicene Creed, in Nicea [which is now known as Iznik, Turkey] in 325 AD. which a] was more then 800 years ago, b] the Middle East was Christian and c] even then Christianity could disscuss doctrine.

@ muhammadalfatih

[ fact of the matter is bible says earth is flat and poison test of christians but for christians they know there book is flawed so they created excuses and lies you are using to escape this                         you claim bible doesnt mean this or that look at bibles steps of creating the universe it flawed such as light being created before its source, can the light of bubl be created before the bulb ]

@ As i see it

Lots of people said the world was flat, they also said that the sun revolves around the earth. [we still use the term the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, but it does not make it true] Copernicus was exiled and threatened with excomunication by the Pope for saying the above was wrong. Again we learn and evolve.

As for your light bulb question, we are back to what the west call the Chicken and the Egg situation. Which came first the Egg or the Chicken? But to explain, God Creator = Jesus = Spirit i will give three anologies

a] John Ch 1 v1-5 Before the world was created, the word already existed; he was with God and he was the same as God. Through him God made all things, not one thing in all creation was made without him, The word was a source of life and this life brought light to mankind. The light signs in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out. 

b] DNA is the source, or building blocks of life, be it vegetable, animal or human. it is part of our being. Yours or my parents DNA mix and we are conceived and are born into life. Hence we have a Trinity. DNA + Mother & Fathers egg & seed = New life, Us

c] Man is a Trinity, 1] The Brain, which controls 2] the Body and 3] the Spirit. Which is a part of God within us. Just proves that we are all part of God and Creation.

 

@ muhammadalfatih[

first of all jesus didnt speak a work of hebrew he only spoke aramaic your own priests and popes confirmed this ]

@ As i see it

How did Jesus read from the Torah in the Synagogue if he could not read Hebrew?

@ muhammadalfatih

[ as for shia sunni shia came into existence way later and only 10 percent are shia which clearly shows they came later on into existence are declared false, ali ra the very man they worship declared them kafir and he even executed many of them so your argument is as flawed as your bible ]

@ As i see it

The above only proves that even then as now fellow Muslims cannot discuss freely their religion without resorting to violence.

@ muhammadalfatih

[ as for islam21c i dont know if your acting dumb: ]

@ As i see it

Apart from http://www.islam21c.com/politics/conclusive-scholarly-opinions-on-isis/ which is dated 10/07/2014. The rest appear to be anti-west or blaming the west for ISIS. Or indeed saying that it is all the wests fault for what is happening.

Indeed it would be interesting to know what your answers would be for solving the violence bettween people in Syria/Iraq or indeed the violence that is happening in Nigeria. Or for that matter how the people of planet earth can get along, be they Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddist or indeed of no interest in religion whatsoever, but just want to live their lives in their own way?

 

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