Persecuted and Forgotten?

Persecuted and Forgotten?

No I am not talking about Muslims who feel hard done by? I am talking about Christians.

Christians – already the world's most persecuted faith – are suffering worse persecution, violence and intimidation.

The above is a link to the full article, plus I ask you to watch the video [only 4 mins] and still say it is only Muslims who are suffering.

This above link to the situation around the world both the video and the report was made in 2013 and the situation is getting worse. But Politicians are ignoring these facts either for Political correctness, or not to offend governments of countries that we trade with.

Again I ask you to take time to have a look if you are open-minded.

Christians 'Driven to Extinction' in Middle East, Warns Baroness Warsi

Christianity is in danger of becoming extinct in the countries where it was founded because of persection, a senior Tory has warned.

Baroness Warsi, the government's minister for faith and communities, claimed that Christians were being driven out of Middle Eastern countries such as Iraq and Syria by being targeted for "collective punishment" for the actions of Western powers.

The civil war in Syria and the volatile situation in Iraq have also seen many Christians leave the countries where the religion first took root.

Baroness Warsi told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I am concerned that the birthplace of Christianity, the parts of the world where Christianity first spread, is now seeing large sections of the Christian community leaving and those that are remaining feeling persecuted.

"Tragically, what's happening is they are being seen as newcomers, being portrayed as an 'other' within that society, even though they have existed there for many, many centuries.

"What we are seeing, sadly, is a sense of collective punishment meted out by local groups - sometimes states, sometimes extremists. [Christians] are seen as legitimate targets for what are perceived as actions of their co-religionists.

Baroness Warsi, who was Britain's first female Muslim cabinet minister, wrote in the Daily Telegraph that the Christian population in Iraq had fallen from 1.2 million in 1990 to 200,000 today. She added that the war in Syria had "masked the haemorrhaging" of its Christian population.

She added: "There's an international consensus, in the form of a Human Rights Council resolution on the treatment of minorities and tolerance towards other faiths. But we need to build a political will behind that.

Comments

While there is much truth to the contents, I take issue with this line:

Christians – already the world's most persecuted faith...

I doubt that is true. The world's most powerful countries are nominally Christian. USA, Europe, even Russia.

While persecution has become worse in Iraq, Syria, Egypt etc, the fate of Muslims in those places is just as bad if not even worse.

Most of the victims of ISIS are Muslims, then Yezidis. Assad who is the biggest butcher in Syria targets sunni Muslims.

Sisi in Egypt fears the Muslim Brotherhood and the crackdown is against them, while the Orthodox pope has allied himself with Sisi, which has brought some backlash.

The UK has played a role in destabilising Iraq and Syria and has some responsibility.

While there is much persecution in these places, it should be noted that (Eastern) European nations have recently agreed that they will consider accepting refugees - but only as long as they are Christians. A very unchristian stance.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

I doubt that is true. The world's most powerful countries are nominally Christian. USA, Europe, even Russia.

What you say, nominaly Christian is true, but the majority of people in these countries only play lip service to Christianity.

Regarding

 While persecution has become worse in Iraq, Syria, Egypt etc, the fate of Muslims in those places is just as bad if not even worse.

 Most of the victims of ISIS are Muslims, then Yezidis. Assad who is the biggest butcher in Syria targets sunni Muslims.

 This is true, Muslims are killing Muslims, but Christians in the middle east now form a smaller % then at the turn of the century. Is it because they are not breeding as fast as others, or is it due to forced marraige, or is it due to voting with their feet and leaving?

Sisi in Egypt fears the Muslim Brotherhood and the crackdown is against them, while the Orthodox pope has allied himself with Sisi, which has brought some backlash.

True but the Muslim Brotherhood did not do themselves any favours when they were in power. 

 The UK has played a role in destabilising Iraq and Syria and has some responsibility.

Not to mention Libya, most people in the UK [and the west] was against intervention in these countries. We did have anti-war protests, letters to MP's etc. But the only limited success was to stop NATO doing to Syria what it did in Libya.

What we have had over the years is Power politics. East [USSR] verse West [USA] being played by the local politicians. With proxy countries doing the fighting, be it in Africa, Mid-east or Asia.

Up to a point this cold war as been wound down, though we do have hot spots Ukraine and NATO encroaching on to the Russian borders, the Baltic States. Russia sees this as the equivelent to Cuba missile crisis and US provocation.

Now we have a similar situation bettween Iran and Saudi Arabia. Long-term dispute, but this time as per East v West using proxy countries/organisations do do their fighting for them. Whether this remains limited or escalates who knows.

One thing i do know if you want to find out what causes these conflicts, ask the simple question, "who actually benefits," or to put it crudely, "just follow the money. But we do have an interesting situation Saudi oil stocks are on the decline, whilst Irans oil stocks, due to sanctions, and the ending of these sanctions are ripe for exploitation.

But in the Words of Nelson Medela, "when Elephants fight, the grass gets crushed and trampled," Unfortunately You, me and many others are just grass.

Two videos worth a watch summing all this better then i can. Biiter Lakes

And a discussion between Gen Sir Mike Jackson. and Mehdi Hasan. Should the west end its wars.

 

Further to my question about the genocide of Christians in the Middle East.

These Christians have been there since before Islam and Mohammed. Even under Mohammeds immediate successors and the Ottoman Turks they were allowed to practice their faith?

Yet ISIS, or ISIL, or DASH. Who say that they follow more closely the teachings of the Prophet are commiting acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing. The world just looks on whilst this happens.

Yes the Christians have fled to Kurdish, Shiite and Sunni held areas that do not practice, or follow the self-same Islam that ISIL follow. As such they are seen as enemies of ISIL.

Archbishop Warda, states that Christians felt safer under Saddam Hussien. The majority of Christians are saying the same in Syria about Assad.

Yes individuals are saying that ISIL are just perverting Islam. But i have yet to see the same street marches against ISIL as i have seen against Irael and the attacks on Gaza.

I see that it is either a] the rank and file Muslims are too frightened to protest against ISIL or b] by their silence the rank and file Muslims support ISIL and wish to see the same in Europe?

 

 

I agree with most of what you have written but I want to address this bit head on:

As i see it wrote:
But i have yet to see the same street marches against ISIL as i have seen against Irael and the attacks on Gaza.

The UK has relations with Israel and has complicity in some of its crimes. If the UK was opposed to those crimes, there would be little to protest against - the government would be doing its job.

In relation to ISIS, we hold the same position as the government, that it is repugnant. there is no need to protest British government position on this.

On the other hand if the UK decides to ally itself with Assad (who kills 7 times as many people, but instead from the minorities, from the majority), now that would be a position to protest against.

On the theological side, the argument is clear, but nevertheless the grand mufti of Turkey, Mehmet Görmez, major scholars around the world and producing literature condemning the likes of ISIS, using classical theological tought. His sermon during the Hajj contained this condemnation.

The authorities and scholars from Gaza condemn and actively act against ISIS elements (through teh self interest that if ISIS ever did become present, Israel would use it as an excuse to carry out more murder and opression.)

From the Indian Sub continent, Dr Qadri produced a book with all the classical Islamic thoughts on terrorism and terrorists (which preceded the rise of ISIS, but covers the same subjects) and last year launched a syllabus for students and another for religious tutors meant to educate on the classical Islamic sources to combat the extremists arguments. I have not read this material but it is meant to be authoritative.

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf and the Zaytuna Institute in America have been working long ahd hard for years arguing against extremism and terrorism.

These are just the few off the top of my head, there will be much more.

For every minority that ISIS has killed, they have killed magnitudes from the majority - their way is to spread fear.

Recently, German journalist Jurgen Todenhofer, who spent 10 days in ISIS controlled territory, was on BBC Radio 5 live and gave an interesting interview. A good listen: (it has an option to download the MP3)

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Yes individuals are saying that ISIL are just perverting Islam. But i have yet to see the same street marches against ISIL as i have seen against Irael and the attacks on Gaza.

Yes, they are perverting true Islam, but this message needs to be more openly discussed. Or the result is 1] Westerners who do not take the trouble to learn about Islam. Can be easily convinced that ISIS is the true face of Islam. As such the majority could be manipulated, which is dangerous for all of us. 2] Muslims should openly discuss this also, to be open to views from both parties. That way they will be able to see for themselves and understand the difference and see the truth. That way they will be harder to manipulate by extremists. 

It is only by open discussion can we understand our percieved differences.

 I see that it is either a] the rank and file Muslims are too frightened to protest against ISIL or b] by their silence the rank and file Muslims support ISIL and wish to see the same in Europe?

 My comment still stands. One could change this from ISIL to IRA/UDA and the above statement would still be truth. It only needs a small, well motivated minority to influence the majority. Whether for good or evil?

 The UK has relations with Israel and has complicity in some of its crimes. If the UK was opposed to those crimes, there would be little to protest against - the government would be doing its job.

 The UK, to its shame, as negotiated with many unsavoury characters. But this is called diplomacy, unless one talks and tries to understand the other side, whilst putting your side as forcefully as possible. This is the only way to stop, at least try, the escalation of violence.

All the person in the street can do is to try to let our leaders know how we feel. Western Democracy is in no way perfect, but it is much better then most alternatives. This we did by preventing a Libya 2 in Syria, yes, there is bombing taking place using the guise of attacking ISIS.

On the other hand if the UK decides to ally itself with Assad (who kills 7 times as many people, but instead from the minorities, from the majority), now that would be a position to protest against.

Whether Assad's forces are directly killing people to the level you state, only after the conflict is over will the truth be known. But i do know that Indirectly the civil war in Syria is killing 1000's injuring 10's of 1000's and displacing millions. Which is the result of certain groups trying to topple people in authority,to place these groups in positions of authority. The common people are mainly irrelevant, they are there to be used.

On the theological side, the argument is clear, but nevertheless the grand mufti of Turkey, Mehmet Görmez, major scholars around the world and producing literature condemning the likes of ISIS, using classical theological tought. His sermon during the Hajj contained this condemnation.

Agreed, discussion is taking place, in writing, I have hopefully started a open discussion that many of your readers of Revival can see and understand that respected Islamic Scholars have views on this matter. The information to these Scholars that you have provided, if they wish to pursue it will be useful in this aim. The link to

Recently, German journalist Jurgen Todenhofer, who spent 10 days in ISIS controlled territory, was on BBC Radio 5 live and gave an interesting interview. A good listen: (link is external) (it has an option to download the MP3)

Is well worth a listen, and it is certainly about time our BBC started to make these views available.