no, she shouldn't cover her face at all.

You can wear the cap niqab as mentioned ^

its like a cap on top of your hijab and at the end, a cloth is attached, hiding your face but not directly touching it.

its against the spirit of the female ihram, a technical way to try to get around a religious obligation.

If you are doing hajj, do it properly.

when people push the niqab = fardh argument, they will invariable get hit by "but why is it not allowed for hajj/umrah?" question and they need a way to answer that.

It is permissible to wear niqab whilst in ihram. The reason being becuase of the fitnah in the world today. The part about the cap bit, is mentioned and followed by most scholars, however, from personal experience, when wearing the cap, both the niqab, the cap and hijab came flying off (due to the rush in hajj and umrah- if you have been, you will know and understand what im talking about when i say 'rush'!) Therefore scholars have even allowed females to wear the niqab without the cap as long as fitnah is being prevented. (and again if you have been there and noticed, there is alot of fitnah...there shouldn't be, yes, but there is... Allah guide us all.Ameen.)
Finally, just for thought... do you really think the ummatul muslimeen, the mothers of the believers and teh sahaabiyahs didn't wear the niqab... maybe not in the literal sense, but becuase the umrah and hajj back then was sooo small compared to now, they used to have fan like things whish they would draw over there faces when a man was there.

when people push the niqab = fardh argument

So You, just for disscussions sake, what do you consider the niqab???

Nasheedgirl wrote:

(due to the rush in hajj and umrah- if you have been, you will know and understand what im talking about when i say 'rush'!)

(and again if you have been there and noticed, there is alot of fitnah...there shouldn't be, yes, but there is... Allah guide us all.Ameen.)

Yes, very true...Ameen

Nasheedgirl wrote:

when people push the niqab = fardh argument

So You, just for disscussions sake, what do you consider the niqab???

face veil.

I think the fitnah argument is bogus. There isn't any more fitnah than before and people just imagine the risks.

You wrote:

Nasheedgirl wrote:

when people push the niqab = fardh argument

So You, just for disscussions sake, what do you consider the niqab???

face veil.

I think the fitnah argument is bogus. There isn't any more fitnah than before and people just imagine the risks.

Have you been? Any time soon? And from when... the prophet SAW's time??

You wrote:

Nasheedgirl wrote:

when people push the niqab = fardh argument

So You, just for disscussions sake, what do you consider the niqab???

face veil.

I think the fitnah argument is bogus. There isn't any more fitnah than before and people just imagine the risks.

Btw, what's the difference between the 'face veil' and the niqab?

Nasheedgirl wrote:

You wrote:

Nasheedgirl wrote:

when people push the niqab = fardh argument

So You, just for disscussions sake, what do you consider the niqab???

face veil.

I think the fitnah argument is bogus. There isn't any more fitnah than before and people just imagine the risks.

Btw, what's the difference between the 'face veil' and the niqab?

Is there a difference?

What do you consider a niqab?

People can wear the niqab if they want. Just not during Hajj and Umrah

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

...the prophet's wives did...

There were special requirements laid down for the wives of the prophet - the ummahaatul Mu'mineen. These are special people and NOT comparable to ordinary people. Their hijab requirements were specific to them.

You wrote:

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

...the prophet's wives did...

There were special requirements laid down for the wives of the prophet - the ummahaatul Mu'mineen. These are special people and NOT comparable to ordinary people. Their hijab requirements were specific to them.

But hang on a second, are ou saying that they had stricter hijab rules than we do today... because that would not make sense as they were the purest of women. If it had been sent down to them , then it was surely to teach us what to do... even if the rules wern't sent down to them they would be modest... nowadays it's a case of most people only wearing hijab becuase it's a 'must' and that's just about aswell. It's the same with the sahaabas, and the anbiyaah and the rasools, they were all made to do things in order to teach us. It wasn't becuase they were different people and so they followed different rules... no surely that wouldn't even make sense!

I don't disagree with you when you say that they are 'NOT comparable to ordianry people'...of course not, but things wern't different for them then they are for us, surely the rules on us should be stricter becuase we are more easily sinful and mislead.

You wrote:

Nasheedgirl wrote:

You wrote:

Nasheedgirl wrote:

when people push the niqab = fardh argument

So You, just for disscussions sake, what do you consider the niqab???

face veil.

I think the fitnah argument is bogus. There isn't any more fitnah than before and people just imagine the risks.

Btw, what's the difference between the 'face veil' and the niqab?

Is there a difference?

What do you consider a niqab?

People can wear the niqab if they want. Just not during Hajj and Umrah

No, i was asking you that question.. but... anyway forget it! Lol
But yh, i consider the niqab to be the face veil too, and yes, people can wear the niqab, but because of fitnah, they can wear it Umrah and Hajj too... but...this goes back to your arguement of 'fitnah is bogus'.

No, fitnah is not bogus... if it was, then why is a commandment for hijab, modesty, hayaa? why are there rules for lowering ones gaze? how many hadith state the cuase of fitnah...? of which some are:

Mu'az bin Jabal (ra) said to Raja' bin Haiwa:
"Your earlier trials consisted of harsh adversities and you had limited resources towards which you exercised extreme patience and
endurance, however, your future trials will consist of comfort and prosperity. Furthermore, the most I fear for you are the trials of
women, and the time will come when women will adorm their forearms with bracelets of gold and silver decorated alike with matching
bangles, and that will become the fashion, and then, they will be dressed up with damask linen and silk from Syria, and they will tie up
their heads with embellished headbands and ligatures from Yemen, and then women will become a burden for the rich and a worry for the poor."
[narrated Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal]

AND

Narrated Usama bin Zaid:
The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."

So does fitnah still not exsist? Or was what the prophet SAW saying not true? You see, i can not argue my oint with you, if you are completely going to rule fitnah out as that is my key point... so... do you still beleive it's bogus??

ThE pOwEr Of SiLeNcE wrote:

Nasheedgirl wrote:

surely the rules on us should be stricter becuase we are more easily sinful and mislead.

no *if anything*, the rules would be stricter on them - they are the mothers of the believers also they were taught Islam from the Prophet(saw) so they are expected to be better. We are not as special as them so we cannot be expected to be better then them or have extra guidelines. If they didn't do something then we shouldn't. If they did do something, then it's highly recommended and beneficial for us to do it too (even if it isn't a fardh, as You may argue)

Ok, fine then... lets kick the 'more stricter' out of the picture for now (as its all making this kinda complicated). But coming to your other poiints... sure the Prophet SAW taught it to them and so they practiced it better than we did, but that doesn't mean the same rules are not there for us now. In that case we could go round saying that it's good to so and so, but it's ok if you don't... in a society like ours, were we are all already so spiritually weak, do we really need lee-ways to allow us to chop and change whenever we feel like it?

Another thing - those who consider niqab fardh, it doesn't matter if there's more fitna or not, they would think they always need to wear it don't they?

Yeah they should... wear it all the time then (i mean). If it is fardh then they should wear it with understanding and with knowing that the are preventing fitnah and pleasing Allah. If they don't believe it is fardh then put it this way...fitnah is fitnah, if wearing niqab is the best way to prevent it, then do so... surely it'll do no harm to anybody to better themselves?

the ummul mu'mineen's case is different because it is said so in the Qur'an.

the verses are specific to them and the Quran says "you are not like other women", so lets not pretend that those rules apply to others.

we can't simply add to the requirements laid down because we do not have the authority.

as for saying there is more fitnah at hajj now, that needs to be proven.

The modern niqab is Persian in origin and predates Islam. However since it doesn't break any rules of Islam (outside of the ihraam for hajj), it is allowed.

Nasheedgirl wrote:

Another thing - those who consider niqab fardh, it doesn't matter if there's more fitna or not, they would think they always need to wear it don't they?

Yeah they should... wear it all the time then (i mean). If it is fardh then they should wear it with understanding and with knowing that the are preventing fitnah and pleasing Allah. If they don't believe it is fardh then put it this way...fitnah is fitnah, if wearing niqab is the best way to prevent it, then do so... surely it'll do no harm to anybody to better themselves?

the rules are quite clear and stringent.

We cant just add to them without finding a valid reason from the primary sources.

You said there is more fitna but the thing is there has always been fitna yet the face being uncovered is a requirement for ihram!

Wait, I'm being ignored anyway...

Sorry, i was just replying to the posts in order... no intention to ignore! Sorry!!!

Anyway... yes, back to the story ... i didn't (just to clarify) say 'more fitnah' i just said 'alot of fitnah'... and yes that is true but...look read this it's really interesting:

"When in a state of ihram, the muslimah cannot wear niqab. However, according to several scholars, such as Sheikh ibn Baz, even when in a state of ihram, "she should lower her headcovering or outer cloak over her face when she is in the presence of non-mahram men." So, it is to say that she should not cover her face around the other women during ihram, but that she should cover it if a non-mahram man approaches. He bases this on the hadith below, narrated by 'Aisha .

In Fathul Bari, chapter Hajj, a tradition reported on the authority of Aisha (RA) says:

"A woman in a state of Ihram (during Hajj and Umrah) should stretch her head - cloth over to her face to hide it."

Hadith - Recorded by Ahmad, Abu Dawud and ibn Majah, Narrated by 'Aisha (RA).

Narrated 'Aisha (RA) who said, "The riders would pass us while we were with the Messenger of Allah ). When they got close to us, we would draw our outer cloak from our heads over our faces. When they passed by, we would uncover our faces."

Nasheedgirl wrote:

Ok, fine then... lets kick the 'more stricter' out of the picture for now (as its all making this kinda complicated). But coming to your other poiints... sure the Prophet SAW taught it to them and so they practiced it better than we did, but that doesn't mean the same rules are not there for us now.

yes it does.

and this was a special status granted to the wives of the prophet (saw), so much so that when the prophet tooka wife and the sahabahs were not sure if she was a wife or a concubine, they said that if she is veiled in the morning, she is a wife, if not, then a concubine.

(and this veiling would be more than a simple face veil I think)

from the qur'an:

"... And when you ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a veil. . ." [qs:33:53]

it is specifically for the wives of the prophet (saw).

Nasheedgirl wrote:

Narrated 'Aisha (RA) who said, "The riders would pass us while we were with the Messenger of Allah ). When they got close to us, we would draw our outer cloak from our heads over our faces. When they passed by, we would uncover our faces."

This is specifically a wife of the prophet (saw), where there are different rules that apply.

Is this hadith about hajj or a general journey?

btw, I am not arguing that women outside ihram should not wear the niqaab - it is their choice and if it helps them with modesty, they will be rewarded for it.