yea... our route was definitely flawed, Clinton tried to end the war on drugs just after he took office and everything went downhill from there.

He tried really hard during his second admin but too much lost ground resulted in a bad position.

UK is in good condition since geographically you can't sneak it in as easily - but making consiliatory gestures to the drug culture is definitely going to send you down the road to distruction

i know one muslim local guy, used to be in my primary school. The other day my mum refers to him saying such and suchs son has made it, he never even went uni, he's rolling in money, he's got two cars, he's bought his mum a big mansion in the country what have you kids done been uni, and still struggling!

I said to my mother do you know how he's making so much money, i could get a franchise and do the same if you want. She said mm yes! how? He's selling alcohol. His shop is actually called booze shop. Apart from a bit of crisps and sweets it's all alcohol in there. Silence from my mother need i say more

All the muslims that i can think of who trade in alcohol, whether it's via the restaurant business, off-licenses etc have messed up families. Everything is rosy for a while, stupid muslims are even envious of them. But now years on all the ones i know most of them their daughters have run away with guys. Their sons are messing about with girls quite openly. Their kids drink, and their fathers have no authority to stop them. What authority can a father have when he himself bought the alcohol to make a profit. Can he really say son you're muslim it's haram to drink that? The parents have no repsect or dignity left. Sure they have their money and their restaurant but what is that without family and religion?

I'm not envious of them at all, actually pity them even though they tend to be the most arrogant ppl in the community. I can see why alcohol is deemed the root of many evils. I wouldn't exchange my religion for a drop of that stuff.

"yashmaki" wrote:

i know one muslim local guy, used to be in my primary school. The other day my mum refers to him saying such and suchs son has made it, he never even went uni, he's rolling in money, he's got two cars, he's bought his mum a big mansion in the country [b]what have you kids done [/b]been uni, and still struggling!

your mother should not have said that. I would never - Insha Allah T'ala say that to my kids.

In my mothers defence we all say things when we're frustrated, angry or things just ain't going great for us, doesn't necessarily mean they're true. I know she's a good person at heart she just doesn't want to see us struggling to meet ends all the time like she had to.

God knows what we will say to our kids parenting is the most hardest job in the world. Lets hope we don't say such things.

It kind of funny, when you look at it. Muslims and occupation.

Because islamically wouldn't it be the case a Investment Banker has a haraam job as worse as Drug Dealers and Off Licenses. Because he dealing with Riba as well.

Plus it seem that it ok to have a Resturant that sell Alcholol and it kind of alright to have a Off License as well. But if somone has a complete Booze shop then everyone is against it. It shouldn't matter how much income coming from it, the fact it coming from it is enough, ain't it.

Plus another thing is that the mosque need to take a stance on these thing, they shouldn't really accept money from these businesses but all the mosque in our area do. Because i sure the Mosque wouldn't accept a large wad of cash from a drug dealer, but you put a tie and a shirt, have abit of grey hair and suddenly everything acceptable, as he a respectable business man with a Corner Shop.

just caught up with this interesting topic. a few thoughts..

several people have blamed the problem of intoxicants in the Muslim community at various targets. drug user, drug dealer, supplier, authority, mosque, community, family.

I blame the whole 'system'. the system is almost an invisible entity to me. Way I choose to see it is as a massive machine with thousands of components, cogs, chains, chemical reactions, each interacting with one another to achieve a common goal,.. Money.

unfortunatly, the system has flaws both in its contsruction and design. Whilst generating great sums of money, it's bcoming more and more dependant on Money itself.

we're hearing more and more these days remarks such as 'the system has failed them..'.

Although Islam proposes a perfectly flawless way of life which is based on 'God', the 'system' will always oppose it.

I wouldn't advise on trying to overthrow the system, as I believe its gonna fail itslef soon.. I mean come on, Money vs God? no competition.

Yes we're constanty being pulled into the mechanics of this system, but I believe its possible to live within it, without being dependant on it.

Just because we can't solve all the problems with intoxicants in one go, does not mean we should all give in.

Hayder, I hear what your saying about probs where u lived. I know of similar things from east london.

I can't blame anyone, but I'm afraid of being blamed by my younger brothers, the ones who I see on the streets every day, or snuggled up in a car rolling a spliff. After all, I'm older than them, I get respect from them, get salaams, So why don't I talk to them?

I know for sure if I left them to their own devices and they ended up going on drugs, on the day of Judgement I'd be questioned about my role with them. Im also sure that I will share the punishment for it.

"khan" wrote:

I blame the whole 'system'. the system is almost an invisible entity to me. Way I choose to see it is as a massive machine with thousands of components, cogs, chains, chemical reactions, each interacting with one another to achieve a common goal,.. Money.

we're hearing more and more these days remarks such as 'the system has failed them..'.

Although Islam proposes a perfectly flawless way of life which is based on 'God', the 'system' will always oppose it.

I believe you're refering to [b]THE MAN[/b] interesting how you say [b]THE MAN[/b] is opposed to God, this is certainly a new (novel?) angle. :?

q- what about the children of the muslims who sell alcohol? will they receive any of the sins?

"fizzy1" wrote:

q- what about the children of the muslims who sell alcohol? will they receive any of the sins?

That would really depend on the age of the child, if they cannot go out and earn then they can hardly do anythin to feed themselves however if they can then i think they have to earn for themselves and not live off the haram income....

p.s. fizzy check your pm.

"Dawud" wrote:

I believe you're refering to [b]THE MAN[/b] interesting how you say [b]THE MAN[/b] is opposed to God, this is certainly a new (novel?) angle. :?

THE MAN? do you mean.. [url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067103894X/qid=1133951509/sr=8-2/ref=pd...

never heard of it until you told me.. looks like a good read though.

Dealing in a commodity you fastidiously avoid yourself is hypocrisy, decreases the likelihood of quality assurance and confuses other expected boundaries. I get quite annoyed with a particular Muslim-owned off-license. When I explain this he plays cool and mutters some excuse like 'business is business' or simply 'I cannot check all the customers blah blah blah'. My grocer in Manchester would never sell drink to someone underage, after hours or to someone who it is clearly irresponsible to supply with drink, like a homeless drunk man. The same goes for most reputable locals and established high-street outlets. Here in London I see Muslim off-licenses do these things all the time, not caring about the customer's or society's wellbeing, sneaking the drink out in little black bags like partners in crime. I would guess it is not only the Muslim ones, and that many do not, but that's the deal with selling alcohol to 'the riff-raff'. No conscience. The result is I see drunk old men getting into trouble, causing injury to themselves and harrassing others all through the night. Not good enough.

the issue is muslims selling alcohol when it's against their faith. No doubt it effects society but that's not just a muslim issue is it. Not that it makes much difference but non muslims supply alcohol far more than muslims. So if we're concerned about society at large religion doesn't come into it. Greed is behind everything. Just why are the government supplying 24 hr licences, when simultaneously figures have come out showing most violent crimes are alcohol related. Everything revolves around money.

I'm not trying to defend muslims who sell alcohol they'll get their due punishments. And if they are supplying irresponsibly to ppl over the limit or underage they deserve all penalties coming their way.

You seem to be concentrating on muslim off licences a lot, maybe that's because there's a high number in your locality? So i guess that shapes your views. But in my area it's mainly non muslims who own off licences and pubs. Apart from a few decent licence holders most of these ppl don't care about the moral issues. They are out to make a profit, whether a person is too young, too old, too drunk, drunk and obviously going to drive doesn't make them even flinch. But what do you expect from such ppl are they any better than the person drinking themsevles into oblivion.

But i agree muslims are in denial. Both the ones that are supplying it, and bystanders who are perhaps ashamed and make pathetic excuses for them. There is no excuse to sell something expressly forbidden in our faith. When a muslim restaurant owner brags about business takings we shouldn't be shy to say "so how much profit do you make on alcohol sales alone" Why do we sit there and let our elders praise them over tea.

yashmaki, at's exactly what I wrote, vose filfy Muslim scum wiv veir corner shops and mosks, ruinin vis country an larfin at everyone, filfy scum innit. Fank you for readin so careful luv.

"100man" wrote:

yashmaki, at's exactly what I wrote, vose filfy Muslim scum wiv veir corner shops and mosks, ruinin vis country an [b]larfin[/b] at everyone, filfy scum innit. Fank you for readin so careful luv.

We have a cockney among us, Where's that stick...

yashmaki,

Just to clarify, I wonder if because alcohol sales are such a moral grey area for Muslims there is a certain contempt for the customers and less social responsibility from the vendors.

Dawud,

You can't touch me!

i don't think there's contempt for the customer. But there must be this attitude oh they're non muslims so us giving them drink is no biggy. if we don't give them it someone else will.

But if a muslim were to order alcohol in their restaurant then eyebrows would be raised, and they'd maybe even say no i'm not serving you that it's haram :roll:

Your comment about filthy muslims. ok granted these ppl who sell the stuff are low life. But the mosques they build even if with alcohol money are still places of worship. I don't think they should have been built with such money. But even so they still remain legit places of worship and the building itself is deemed pure even if the money it was built with isn't, so say the scholars. So some scholars encourage worshippers to avoid going to these mosques if another alternative is within reach. whilst others say it's perfectly ok, and should not be abandoned. Personally i don't think these mosques are filthy especially since most the worshippers are genuine.The retaurant owners who fund these mosques rarely visit any mosque let alone the mosques they help build.

The most holy mosque of all in Mecca is well known to be funded by the saudi royals, they don't exactly offer pure money, and aren't without scandal. But no one would say it was a filthy mosque and should be abandoned.

For goodness' sake yashmaki, the comment about 'filfy muslim scum wiv veir corner shops and mosks' was not serious, but it is very sweet of you that you took it literally AND gave a gracious reply. The other point you made about the attitude is exactly the point I was making.

oh sorry i thght you meant it lol don't be so harsh with me

Well my big brother says that about them all the time filthy scums and other expletatives. My mum tells him off but i completely understand his sentiments.

Sorry, I will be gentle.

thanx

nothing to do with alcohol but even the meat in these restaurants are impure. many owners buy meat that hasn't been slaughtered with islamic regulations simply because it's cheaper to.

Most these restaurants don't hold halal signs so it's self explanatory. But i suppose some naive muslims think it is halal coz the owners are muslim. Funnily enough owners wouldn't mention the meat is haram they'd let the muslims purchase it. And once the restaurant is closed these workers most of whom are muslim will have their own dinner, wonder what meat they cook with, a separate halal batch? You can't even trust muslims with meat these days.

I've been told a lot of American muslims get their meat from Jewish butchers because they can be relied upon. They claim too many muslims try to swindle you with haram meat over there.

As muslims we aren't permitted to give something we consider haram to even a non muslim. Because we are always supposed to propagate the true teachings of islam, and live by them. If we were to give them haram food then we'd be hypocrites. i.e if we buy something from the supermarket and on reading the label realise it contains gelatine, we;re not permitted to hand it over to our non muslim neighbour. He can feed himself with haram if he wishes, but we shouldn't be encouraging him in that further. Rather we should bin return it or bin it.

i have a q

what if you eat at the house of someone who sells alcohol

a friend said yr prayers are not counted for 40 days

is this true?

"fizzy1" wrote:

i have a q

what if you eat at the house of someone who sells alcohol

a friend said yr prayers are not counted for 40 days

is this true?

that depends...

...

whose your friend?

Can we eat and/or stay at a non-muslim freinds house where we know they consume alcohol?

I read sumwhere that its not only the person who consumes alcohol that is the sinner but also the one who sells it, makes it, transports it and serves it. Can this be implied to taxi drivers who drive people to and from pubs and clubs?

This is going to sound like a stupid question but i just need clarification. Is it haraam to enter a pub? and is it haraam to eat in a pub?

Should we stay away from Student Unions where we know they serve and consume alcohol?

I have a muslim freind whose dad sells alcohol in his restaurant, we go there often should we refrain fom this?

How about someone who is working in a superstore like sainsburys and has to sell alcohol, is that person sinning?
My uncle used to work at a petrol station where they sold alcohol and coz of this my uncle used to work night shifts where alcohol wasnt available to sell, eventually he quit his job coz he found doing night shifts hard. What is a person to do if his livelihood depends on it?

sorry for all the questions, jus need clarification coz different people say different things

it best to stay away from stuff like that-student unions are dodgy places

even if ur not selling, drinking, serving it etc

why hang around with smelly drunks?

"flower" wrote:

My uncle used to work at a petrol station where they sold alcohol and coz of this my uncle used to work night shifts where alcohol wasnt available to sell, eventually he quit his job coz he found doing night shifts hard. What is a person to do if his livelihood depends on it?

Open a DIY shop.

Talking of families who drink alcohol...

There was this girl in college who was showing us photos of her baby brother's birthday. The party was held in a pub. She went through the photos saying that's my dad behind the bar, that's my stepmom with the other women of the family - the women don't drink, that's my brother, this is another one of my brothers - he's the molvi of the family, he only drinks Bacardi...

comical

oh my.....