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you link to your site once more and you will be banned, your posts deleted.
or I might do that anyway.
and since I am in this topic anyway, I may aswell say again that the article quoted by ;Ed is written by a moron.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
usamah bin laden praised 9/11 he never said he did it.
As for damaging the image of islam making it impossible to live, Allah is testing us, we can't blame 1 muslim for our own sins. The muslims are weak and even today what do they do but fight amongst each other, they can;t even run a mosque without fighting over who's gonna head the committee. I believe Allah is testing us, if it wasn't usamah, someone or something else would have occurred, i think it's naive to think it could have been avoided if Allah willed it.
“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]
Theologically, that is worse.
One is doing wrong - where if you acknowledge that it is wrong, it has a path to forgiveness.
However, suggesting that a haraam act is not haraam (which would be the case if the haraam act of murder is praised) would be kufr.
Theologically, OBL has no leg to stand on. Out of the frying pan and into the fire as they say. You cant support him on a religious basis, as that can risk your own iman depending on how vociferous the defence is (if it goes into the territory of saying something that is haraam is halaal, that would cross the line).
but I agree that wishing for an alternative history is not condusive to fixing the existing problems.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
It's scary how you say that like its alright o.O
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
what am i guilty of powerofsilence and You? My iman at risk for stating the very fact that he never admitted to doing 9/11? It's a fact what is there so shocking about what i said?
Whats more shocking is how many muslims have been killed in the name of democracy, yet the blood of americans on 9/11 is apparently more precious than muslim blood, least that is how it is always portrayed.
my iman or lack of is something Allah knows about so i dont think its appropriate for you to comment on it. Am i supposed to silently agree with the masses. Michael Moore for example and those that support him dont believe muslims did 9/11 either, so what if i happen to agree with them.
“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]
If 9/11 didn't happen, the subsequent shedding of Muslim blood would have been less likely.
Bush was an insular president that didn't know or care about the world outside american borders.
The issue is not if OBL orchestrated the attacks or not (though I do think he did), but that he supported them, praised them and that is supporting and praising mass indiscriminate killing, something which goes against the qur'an.
I am sure that you how ever will use the get-out clause of "but OBL didn't do 9/11" as an excuse to continue to hold him in high esteem, but he supported the killing of other Muslims too, his fatwa allowed it. At best these actions/opinions are haraam.
We don't need to go into a comparison of "who is worse" between OBL and the US, we just need to hold our opinion on OBL based on the Islamic sources and what they say.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
PS it is ok to hold a neutral position of "I don't know", but going any further than that, theologically standing, there cannot be a positive opinion held.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
@ Hajjar.
I'm confused :S Where did your imaan come into all this :/
All I was saying is that you the way you stated the fact that OBL didn't do 9/11 and only praised them sounded very wrong; praising the deaths of innocents?!!!
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
That was from my post.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
so i should say hes a kaffir coz the masses are saying hes kaffir and if i dont my iman is on a thin line? I'd rather leave that job to the scholars its not my job to do that. What he did do regarding 9/11 only Allah knows so why assume we know?. i didnt praise him, neither did i support him i simply was being neutral and stating a fact:who did 9/11? can anyone answer that, i don't think its been answered.
Do not paint me out to be the sort of fanatic the media like to report upon, because i am far from it, im sure i am not the only muslim or non muslim who takes the view that 9/11 is greatly shady to say the least.
you said it was unlikely that muslims would have shed so much blood if it wasnt for usama bin laden, thats a load of rubbish, if Allah wills it it will happen with or without usama bin laden. Also there are thousands if not more usamas out there, meaning people who adhere to the same beliefs as him and are willing to go to extremes to achieve it, i'm sure the intelligence agencies are aware of this. I mean 9/11 was used as pretext for war, then it was said it was wmds, then it was saddam, what was the real reason oil by any chance?
“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]
that kind of defeats the purpose of free will no?
I'm sorry, there are some things I don't quite understand; So Allah willed PEOPLE to commit 9/11 (it wasn't a natural disaster) but didn't will other people to be able to deal with it properly or for the Ummah to be/stay strong?
Why couldn't Allah have been testing the people who actually committed the atrocious act that spawned further atrocities, and they clearly failed miserably?
Are the people who died, and the people who committed the crime, just faceless pawns as part of an elaborate exam question for us to see how we dealt with it?
#Before you look at the thorns of the rose , look at it's beauty. Before you complain about the heat of the sun , enjoy it's light. Before you complain about the blackness of the night, think of it's peace and quiet... #
no it doesnt we have a certain amount of free will but ultimately Allah can direct what happens not us. My point was to say without usama bin laden so much muslim blood would not have been spilt is playing the psychic.
powerofsilence it wasnt you who said the thing about my iman im sorry for the confusion, im quite shocked You said it, but dont play about with pseudonyms say what you really feel.
reply Raw: i cant answer all your questions and i wouldn't attempt to those kind of questions can enter us into a state of despair and disbelief. My point was simply Allah is in command of everything he has the ultimate power not obl or anyone else.
i don't like discussing anything like this about muslims, i dont like being the scapegoat and excuse non muslims use to mock and abuse us down the streets, so i dont buy the tabloids and i dont tune in to the news. but sadly i come here sometimes for a break and i am usually informed of the news and sometimes foolishly i enter into pointless debates like this. there is no good in this debate, nothing can be achieved by having it.
“O my people! Truly, this life of the world is nothing but a (quick passing) enjoyment, and verily, the hereafter that is the home that will remain forever.” [Ghafir : 39]
No. I wouldn't call him kaafir either, though he would be borderline depending on how he framed his beliefs in his head, and he will certainly have a heavy price to pay for all the lives his actions have resulted in - and not just 9/11 - there was the bombings in 1998 and also the general consequences of his fatwa and his "spiritual support" for others who have carried out acts of mass carnage.
I had read your earlier post as a defence of Bin Laden, with all the "he is not a coward" talk of trying to defend his IMO evil legacy.
I assume that you dont mean in the sense of praying a lot etc, but in the sense of carrying out or wanting to carry out senseless acts of murderous violence (which generally target other Muslims).
Not a good thing I think we can agree.
Bush was insular. until 9/11 he did not give the outside world 2 thoughts. 9/11 gave the hawks in his cabinet who did care about the outside world and had designs for war his ear. Even then, even they didn't want to go into afghanistan. Rumsfeld is purported to have said something along the lines of he wanted Iraq, not afghanistan - there were no good targets in Afghanistan.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Not necessarily. Rather than take a view that posits more questions than answers, and which you can't actually substantiate, Could you not simply take the less troublesome view that in fact
Bad PEOPLE did something BAD (Whether it was OBL or not) and not attribute it to God?
Arguably, Part of God having the ultimate power is He's the only one that can give us free will. And I don't think anyone suggested OBL had power over God, when you do that you could bring it into anything, tantamount perhaps to:
"I tipped a bowl of cereal over someone's head"
"No you didn't, God has the ultimate power so He did that, not you"
#Before you look at the thorns of the rose , look at it's beauty. Before you complain about the heat of the sun , enjoy it's light. Before you complain about the blackness of the night, think of it's peace and quiet... #
really?
please do explain.
so how can non Muslims be held accountable for not believing in Allah Almighty when that is what He willed? it wasn't their fault...
in the world of the souls everyone testifed to the oneness of Allah Almighty.. then when they were sent to earth they were given free will, choice to do whatever they wanted to do and believe whatever they wanted...
there is no such thing as limited free will.
We do have limitations based on our understanding, desires, urges and physical attributes.
@ Rawrs - iy is important to also accept that bad is also from God. Maybe sometimes it is directly, but other times, no one will choose to be born with a genetic defect or get hit by a tsunami.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
ooooh boy not this again
I think somebody on Revvy has allready explained this, i think it was Lilly
nobody has free will but they do have freedom of choice. they can choose whatever they want to do but in the end nothing will happen if Allah (swt) doesn't will it. Insha Allah- If Allah wills
Lets reunite the ummah under one flag LA ILAHA IL ALLAH MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH
then how do you separate what bad comes from us and what bad comes from God?
are all the evils of this world from God?
All good and bad is from Allah (SWT) for example if somebody wants to do good Allah will guide them towards good. same thing if somebody wants to do something bad Allah will guide them towards bad. freedom of choice but only if Allah wills will it happen.
I am sure that you have heard of the saying that everything happens for a reason. well it does and only Allah alone knows why HE has done things and Allah knows best.
at most i know is that some bad things happen to some people as a punishment in this dunya for bad deeds they have comitted, others are faced with calamities as a test from Allah.
without going in to too much detail about why bad things happen, know this that Allah only does things which please him.
as a muslim you should know that Allah does what is best for you and what Allah hasn't told us we should not question.
Lets reunite the ummah under one flag LA ILAHA IL ALLAH MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH
Everyone know's all good and bad is from Allah swt as people can do whatever they want but at the end of the day id Allah swt didn't want it to happen he could stop it.
(It may not be clear but that ^ isn't a contradiction of freewill)
But, that doesn't mean you can't say something which is clearly wrong and bad to not be. Yeh OBL's actions, Al Qaeda's actions and whatever may be testing for us as a whole but at the same time it's a fact that their actions ARE wrong and they have made things worse for the rest of us. Also at the end of the day everyone's punished for their own actions.
:S
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
Im with you on this one, I never killed any yankees, but I get damn happy when they are hit by a cyclone, hurricane or a couple of airplanes. The war needs to be taken into their own back yards that is when their eyes will open and force their administration to change their foreign policy and stop killing civilians abroad and shedding their blood like its water. The people who shed blood the world over are there because THEY elected them. YANKEES GO HOME!
Hate is never a good thing and it is wrong to want innocent people to be hurt.
You cant want wanton destruction in America, just that those that are complicit in crimes against others are bought to justice.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
If u support destruction, destruction must be your lot. What goes around comes around.
I can't for the life of me understand why any educated Muslim will have any support or sympathy for Osama.
For a guy who openly praises the mass killing of 9/11 of innocent men, women and children and says the killers are 'martyrs' who will go to jannah- it can only mean he is evil, totally lacks any understanding of islam, is a crackpot or is simply a wannabe-terrorist.
The Quran states to kill one human being is to kill the whole of mankind; theres many ahadith on how precious the blood of humans is, how mistreating a cat a lady was sent to hell, how the Prophet (pbuh) mentioned the best muslim is from ones hand and tongue one is safe, the biggest sin in sight of allah after shirk is murder etc etc
lets be clear:
1. to say its ok to kill innocent ppl/civilians and is not haram then that is refuting the quran /sunnah and leads on to kufr
2. to carry out these acts but accept its wrong/haram is major sin but not kufr
Now osama fits in the first category as he promotes/blesses and celebrates the killings of 9/11.
So my humble view is that he is miguided, enemy of Islam and Muslims, totally corrupted in his understanding of Islam and has nothing to do with us.Now that apparently he has died we should make dua for him and leave it to Allah.
what U.S. does, foreign policy, obam, bush etc no matter how wrong they are nothjing can justify promoting and praisingmass killing of innocents liek 9/11 and other events.
So to the osama sympathisers- forget the media and the west...look at Islamic teachings and it is crystal clear what osama stood for and supported was totally against Islam. his causes may be genuine but his application was wrong.
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