Questions about Shias + free for all

malik —

i am shia muslim. dont hesatate to ask me any questions about shia islam. i dont know everything so. i am not an imam.
i get asked loads of qs in collage. sometimes i dont know the answers.

anyways.

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222 comments

Beast Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:38

*DUST*

irfghanIt's what this sort of debate leads to.

It will only make people like AbdusSalaam reinforce their views.

are u saying the rest of us will just sit here and let other people spew hatred? i'd like to think we're not THAT bad at reinforcing OUR views Irfan... :P

Anyone who already has violently anti-Shia views will find Med's, Omrow's, and Ed's posts endearing.

They will ignore everyone else's treacherous opinions.

Dave Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:41

MuslimSisLilSis

irfghan
The people who carry out these attacks do so only because they are told that Shias are kafir's.

And then you get the inevitable revenge attacks and cycle just fuels itself.

And Mr Ed wants the proof too. Very disapointing 😢

I am no longer his cheer leader.

Hang on I thought you were my cheerleader!!!?

MuslimSisLilSis Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:45

Don Karnage

Hang on I thought you were my cheerleader!!!?

I was NEVER ur cheerleader :roll:

but after this thread-looks like Fred will get a new cheerleader

Mr Ed is fired :evil:

*DUST* Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:46

irfghan

*DUST*
irfghanIt's what this sort of debate leads to.

It will only make people like AbdusSalaam reinforce their views.

are u saying the rest of us will just sit here and let other people spew hatred? i'd like to think we're not THAT bad at reinforcing OUR views Irfan... :P

Anyone who already has violently anti-Shia views will find Med's, Omrow's, and Ed's posts endearing.

They will ignore everyone else's treacherous opinions.

wel obviously if they post summat ordering sunnis to go and kill shi'as, the mods will delete it.

Beast Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:49

*DUST*

irfghan
Anyone who already has violently anti-Shia views will find Med's, Omrow's, and Ed's posts endearing.

They will ignore everyone else's treacherous opinions.

wel obviously if they post summat ordering sunnis to go and kill shi'as, the mods will delete it.

No-one on this forum is going to call for anyone to kill Shias.

But some people reading these anti-Shia opinions may have their own pre-existing pro-Shia-killing views reinforced.

MuslimSisLilSis
but after this thread-looks like Fred will get a new cheerleader

I wonder how long that's going to last...

Omrow Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:50

Don KarnageHeeeey what's so unimpressive about me today?

Don. Dont be an idiot. We are shia bashing here. Not looking at your swim suit.

MuslimSisLilSis Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:52

irfghan

MuslimSisLilSis
but after this thread-looks like Fred will get a new cheerleader

I wonder how long that's going to last...

LOL

Not very long.

I am very fickle and disloyal. Just enjoy it while it lasts

Dave Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:53

Except Cheerleaders.

It's not a sport - anything that requires a "judgement" of 1-10 is not a sport.

I didn't think you had Cheerleading in Britain... since you don't have football and don't even pretend you are good at Basketball.

Pretences are everything.

MuslimSisLilSis Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:54

Admin

However we should not be 'bashing' anyone.

thats what u say-

but calling someone KAFIR is bashing them-so is proving that someone is commiting kufr etc

unless of course u also think that calling someone a kafir aint a personal insult :roll:

Adminhehehe

and whats so funny?

I dont see the humour in Aasiya's post above ur one :evil:

Dave Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:58

MuslimSisLilSisunless of course u also think that calling someone a kafir aint a personal insult :roll:

http://www.njoproject.com/files/dcon/Darth%20Vader.jpg

The circle is now complete.

Lord Vader thanks you for your service.

You Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:58

MuslimSisLilSisthats what u say-

but calling someone KAFIR is bashing them-so is proving that someone is commiting kufr etc

unless of course u also think that calling someone a kafir aint a personal insult :roll:

Calling a kaafri a kaafir is not an insult. We call qadiyani's kaafir... we are saying they do not believe in Islam...

If I said tpoDave he is not Muslim, as he does not believe in the Final Prophet Muhammad (saw), or the final book, he would take that as a fact, and not an insult.

If you can prove someone is not a muslim, how is that an insult. If anyone can prove anoher to be a muslim, I would like to see the conclusive incontrovertiable evidence. But none of the mumbo jumbo of hearsay etc that is used nowadays.

MuslimSisLilSis Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:58

Med

This is indeed a first. The Mureed of Ed has finally decided to go against her own shaykh?

Lol.

LilSis u really are a most amusing person. May ALLAH make you smile in highest paradise. ameen

Ha. Ha. :roll:

I find u funnier when ur bashing shia and accusing Muslims and scholars of commiting Shirk and biddah.

So pls stick to what ur good at

*DUST* Sun, 8 Jan 2006 - 23:59

irfghanBut some people reading these anti-Shia opinions may have their own pre-existing pro-Shia-killing views reinforced.

Allah (s.w.t) guides whomsoever He wills. we are just here to try and get across a balanced view, there are some people who we will never be able to convince because Allah has not destined it. but inshaAllah even if one shi'a-bashing person is taken away from their violent ideologies because of this thread, then we would have succeeded.

its all about having an open mind.

MuslimSisLilSis Mon, 9 Jan 2006 - 00:00

Admin

If you can prove someone is not a muslim, how is that an insult.

Shia consider themselves Muslims

I disagree with them but I still consider them Muslims

Your a Muslim and so am I-u telling me that if u called me a kafir it wouldnt be a personal insult?

Dave Mon, 9 Jan 2006 - 00:00

MuslimSisLilSis

Med

This is indeed a first. The Mureed of Ed has finally decided to go against her own shaykh?

Lol.

LilSis u really are a most amusing person. May ALLAH make you smile in highest paradise. ameen

Ha. Ha. :roll:

I find u funnier when ur bashing shia and accusing Muslims and scholars of commiting Shirk and biddah.

So pls stick to what ur good at

He's been saying that a lot recently...

Medarris Mon, 9 Jan 2006 - 00:01

Islam and Quran

1. There is unanimous agreement among the muslims regarding its authenticity, and its text being safeguarded from any additions or deletions.

2. We believe in every single letter of it, it being the word of ALLAH the Exalted.

3. The Quran is neither temporal nor newly created, but is eternal. Falsehood does not approach it from before it or behind it. It is the primary source of all the Muslims tenets of faith, their rites and rules of conduct.

Shia and Quran

1. Jabir reported that he heard Imam Baqir saying: 'No one can claim that he has compiled the Quran as Allah revealed except a liar. The only person to compile it and memorise it according to its revelation was Ali ibn Abi Talib and the Imams who succeeded him. (Usul Kafi: 1:228)
Kafi is the shi'tes equivalent to our Sahih Bukhari. It is their undisputted book of ''hadeeth''

2. A man said that someone was reciting the Quran in the company of Imam Ja'far. The narrator said that he heard certain verses in the recitation which were not according to the recitation of the people. Imam Ja'far told the person reciting: 'Do not recite like this. Recite as the people recite until the (promised) Mahdi arrives. When the Mahdi arrives, he will recite the Quran according to its original revelation and the Qu,ran compiled by Ali will be brought forward. (Usul Kafi: 2.622)

3. Allah says in Surah Ale Imraan (32):

"Certainly Allah has chosen Adam, Noah, the family of Abraham and the family of Imraan above the (families of the) worlds."

Allamah Ali ibn Ibrahim AI-Qummi writes in commentary: 'The Imam said: 'The words: "The family of Muhammed" were also revealed along with "the family of Ale Imraan." They (referring to the Companions of the Prophet S.A.W.) removed the words "The family of Muhammad" from the original text (Al-Qummi's commentary:308). The allegation of removing the words preempts any possibility of abrogation. It is clear that the commentary is accusing the Companions of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) of distorting the Quran.

Mutb'a Tabrez

This Al Qummi was one of the early shi'tes scholars.

Now what does all this mean?

The Quran is unanimously accepted by consensus to be unchanged and original. Every sane mature and intelligent muslim in this forum would agree that to deny even one verse of this Quran makes a person a kafir with no doubt in his kufr whatsoever.

Above I have alhamdulillah provided three references from Shi'te religion about what their view of the Holy Quran is. The references are provided. Now if we take these to be true then no1 here can claim that shia who subscribe to this view are muslim.

Some, after reading this, may say that: '' ok we can concede that a person who believes in these things is a kafir. But the shia we speak to say that they don't believe in any different Quran. They read the same Quran as us, you are just being extreme and sectarian.''

InshaALLAH, this issue can and will be dealt with FULLY in due course. But for the time being I will refer people her to reference number 2. This is a "hadeeth" taken from Usul Kafi, the famous and msot widely read Shi'te book of "ahadeeth".

WHAT IS BEING SAID IN THIS REFERENCE?

Here the Imam is telling a person to refrain from reading Quran in the way he is doing, and rather to wait until the awaited imam arrives. And that when the awaited Mahdi arrives then he will recite the Quran in its original form as it was with Sayyidina Ali radhiyallahu anhu. On this basis, we can understand why shi'tes say they believe in our Quran and do not say that they believe in another, because their primary source of religion tells them to read our Quran UNTIL the true version arrives.


The above 3 points are enough to declare the kufr of the shi'tes. Remember to doubt on one verse of this Quran is kufr, the Shi'tes - according to their own sources - have shown that they do not believe the Quran we have today to be the original Quran. Hence they have committed kufr, and have left islaam if ever they were in islaam.

May ALLAH forgive me if I have erred in not explained correctly. ameen

You Mon, 9 Jan 2006 - 00:02

MuslimSisLilSis

Admin

If you can prove someone is not a muslim, how is that an insult.

Shia consider themselves Muslims

I disagree with them but I still consider them Muslims

Your a Muslim and so am I-u telling me that if u called me a kafir it wouldnt be a personal insult?

Qadiyani's call themselves muslims. They are not.

With shia's if someone can prove it as it has been proven with Qadiyani's, we have to accept. But if they do not prove it, they must hold their silence.

Dave Mon, 9 Jan 2006 - 00:02

MuslimSisLilSis

Admin

If you can prove someone is not a muslim, how is that an insult.

Shia consider themselves Muslims

I disagree with them but I still consider them Muslims

Your a Muslim and so am I-u telling me that if u called me a kafir it wouldnt be a personal insult?

Is there any sort of "muslim test" that one can apply?

I thought a muslim was anybody who said the sahada...

You Mon, 9 Jan 2006 - 00:04

Med; Malik here said without any qualifications that the qur'an is correct as it is.

Remember when I said that the classical shia's are diferent from those of now?

Study their history...

MuslimSisLilSis Mon, 9 Jan 2006 - 00:04

Admin
Qadiyani's call themselves muslims. They are not.

With shia's if someone can prove it as it has been proven with Qadiyani's, we have to accept. But if they do not prove it, they must hold their silence.

qadiyanis reject the KALIMAH-they dont believe in the finality of Prophet (pbuh)

shia believe in Allah and the last Prophet

anyone who believes in the shahada will enter paradise

*DUST* Mon, 9 Jan 2006 - 00:05

MedThe above 3 points are enough to declare the kufr of the shi'tes. Remember to doubt on one verse of this Quran is kufr, the Shi'tes - according to their own sources - have shown that they do not believe the Quran we have today to be the original Quran. Hence they have committed kufr, and have left islaam if ever they were in islaam.

and what is your source for the above post?

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