Just breaking this topic out of another...
Maybe you can cite the hadith where Islam is moderate - including the Arabic - I am most suspect of such claims.
I assume you can get the arabic if needs be? I have taken these from this page:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 76, Number 470 - Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The deeds of anyone of you will not save you (from the (Hell) Fire)." They said, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O Allah's Apostle?" He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His Mercy on me. Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise)."
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 70, Number 577 - Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise." (i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet's companions) said, 'Not even you, O Allah's Apostle?' He said, "Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and mercy on me." So be moderate in your religious deeds and do the deeds that are within your ability: and none of you should wish for death, for if he is a good doer, he may increase his good deeds, and if he is an evil doer, he may repent to Allah."
You, why are you starting all these deabtes with Anon.....
are you really bored at work or what?
I like to know how people think, how their minds work.
Besides, this could be an interesting topic. Many Muslims seem to mock moderation, not realising that it is from sunnah. It will be interesting to see how they counter it and why they do not think it applies.
and yes, I am aware that I will probably regret starting this topic as it will probably turn into a cyclic discussion of repeating the same points hoping to be the one to have the last say.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Maybe you didn't read my request:
"Maybe you can cite the hadith where Islam is moderate - including the Arabic - I am most suspect of such claims."
Unless I am misreading the hadith, none state Islam is moderate...
The prophet
is telling Muslims to be moderate. Since Islam is what was revealed by God and what was reccomended/ordered/allowed by the prophet (saw), I think that makes it about Islam.
The Qur'an also uses the word middle when Talking about the Muslims: [qs:2:143]
And according to this page, there is also this hadith:
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
All of these hadith which you have lifted that use the words moderate or extreme - can you provide me with what the original Arabic is?
Others have posted hadiths with mistranslations (eg the posts on chess being forbidden) - I would like to check what you have posted and interpreted as moderate and extreme and what it actually relates to as there are narrations that seem to go against the "moderate" Islam you are advocating - implying the discussion is a little more involved and sophisticated than your simple presentation may suggest (which appears to fall into the trap of conflating the intention of the texts with the politically loaded and defined contemporary terms of moderate/extreme):
Muslim Book 2, Number 0523:
Abu Wa'il reported: Abu Musa inflicted extreme rigour upon himself in the matter of urination and urinated in a bottle and said: When the skin of anyone amongst the people of Israel was besmeared with urine, he cut that portion with a cutter. Hudhaifa said: I wish that'your friend should not inflict such an extreme rigour. I and the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) were going together till we reached the dumping ground of filth behind an enclosure. He stood up as one among you would stand up. and he urinated, I tried to turn away from him, but he beckoned to me, so I went to him and I stood behind him, till he had relieved himself.
Muslim Book 9, Number 3511:
I said: Allah's Messenger! seek pardon for me. And he (Allah's Messenger) had taken an oath that he would not visit them for a month due to extreme annoyance with them until Allah showed His displeasure to him (Allah's Messenger).
The verse you cited above uses the term wasat - which has a variety of meanings - some scholars interpret it to mean best, others median, others middle... hardly a proof that Islam is moderate - maybe you can define what you mean by moderate and extreme whilst your at it.
This all smacks of a severe distrust of Muslims who just want to live their life in Britain - where they are safe to practice their religion freely.
This is not the case in many, MANY Muslim-majority countries.
By distancing ourselves from the 'general population', we are only making our situation more desperate.
Many young people feel 'forced' to choose between their 'Islamic' identity (which may even me more cultural than religious) and feeling comfortable in the place they have grown up in.
Don't you realise that the more we 'distance' ourselves from non-Muslims, the more young people will stray further from Islam if they merely want to fit in with their friends.
If Islam were not seen as so alien to British life (a view which you seem to share with the BNP and other hate groups), then young people could feel comfortable to be open about their Deen, and still benefit from all the good things that Britain has.
That's what moderation means to me: Only getting rid of British customs that are not compatible with Islam.
If we give up things which are not anti-Islamic just because they are 'British' (or 'Hindu' for that matter), we are just destroying ourselves.
Don't just do something! Stand there.
I guessed that's what you meant by moderate - a corrupted secularised set of ideas that the ahadith nor ayat imply or mean. They refer to people trying to do whatever they can from Islam on an on-going basis, so they don't lose confidence in it by overburdening themselves by things which are not obliged on them. Keeping matters easy where Allah allows them ease, and undertaking difficulties where Allah ordains it - not making everything difficult.
Nothing to do with trying to blend into and become part of societies whose way of life is kufr - the example of the Prophet(saw) is ample for those who read the seerah. One sees he separated himself from the kuffar, calling the society to his way of life and not like a sheep wanting to fit in and blend in with the kuffar and not raise his head.
Read the verses revealed in Mecaa - they condemned the rulers, practices, systems, religions of the Meccans to the point the rulers were infuriated with the Prophet(saw).
Today we find Muslims misquoting, misciting, mistranslating divine texts with predetermined plans and desires that contradict Islam.
You should know the eternal truth - Kuffar will never be happy with you until you become like them. Time and time again this is reiterated in Quran. The Jews have never fitted in - what has regularly happened to them in civilised Western societies???
The solution is to win the society to Islam - and this is not done by moulding Islam to kufr democracy and British identities.
@ anonymous1 - are you actually reading what is written?
if not, that would explain how in the football topic you mistook telling people to be moderate in their love for football was somehow me telling Muslims to be "moderate" in a different way - a moderation that you yourself decided to define and was anything but moderate.
Your definition of a moderate Muslim is not one I would hold by. You may use some one else's definition in order to knock moderation, but that does not fit Islams definition. Once again, you build a strawman in order to demolish it.
The world isn't out to get you.
As for what I have quoted, you are free to look up the arabic. The verse uses the word wasat.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Not sure what you're on about here - my view on those who watch football is that they are generally idiots! They can do more analysis about football than they can about what is wrong with the Muslim world! The kuffar encourage you to waste your lives in this nonsense and you oblige. And your comment of moderation is irrelevant - when their lives are "moderately" revolving aroudn such rubbish there is a problem!
Simplistic and shallow statements that Islam is "moderate" reflect a simple mindset - Islam is too complex to be reduced in such reductionist terms! It's like the idiot who thinks Islam is moderate, so moderate amounts of riba is ok!
Your definition of a moderate Muslim is not one I would hold by. You may use some one else's definition in order to knock moderation, but that does not fit Islams definition. Once again, you build a strawman in order to demolish it.
I know what the word means in Arabic - it has a number of meanings which I described above... the most correct being best.
Question: may or may not be related.
Like the virtue theory, Does Islam kind of go by the Golden mean theory?
Can we reasonably believe in the Goldilocks effect?
#Before you look at the thorns of the rose , look at it's beauty. Before you complain about the heat of the sun , enjoy it's light. Before you complain about the blackness of the night, think of it's peace and quiet... #
you will need to explain the question a little more.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
No it doesn't - it follows the God says so theory...
Now try putting that in an exam and get into a good uni...
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
Just had a look at this and it is an interesting one. It does seem to have some truth in there... but it is not the islamic philosophy, just observances that can be made to fit and comply but are in themselves neither for nor against.
Other points:
There is a hadith where the prophet
was asked for advice, and he told the person "never become angry" thrice.
There is also an occasion when someone was throwing abuse at another sahabi (Hadhrat Abu Bakr As Siddeeq (ra) ?) and the prophet
witnessed this and stayed there til the sahabi replied back (in anger?), at which point the prophet 
left. When asked about this, the prophet 
replied something about angels either defending the sahabi or attacking the one throwing abuse.
Then there is the advice of Hadhrat Abu Bakr as Siddeeq (ra) to some individual (his son?) to never make a judgement in anger.
So it can be said that the golden mean theory does not fit the emotion of anger.
On the other hand, there is also the concept of loving and hating something for the sake of God, in which case anger can be justified when people go past the limits that Allah (swt) laid down.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.
I think there are examples of classical Islamic scholars talking about similar things, and they use Qur'anic/hadith evidence.
Don't just do something! Stand there.
Superficially, one can cite some examples that fit into both of these conceptualisations - those who argue Islam is "moderate" or "peaceful" fit into such categories.
However the reality of Sharia is, when one looks at a sufficient number of examples and texts, one finds one cannot reduce the entire sharia to such crude and simplistic views. The Sharia is too complex for this, and the best a millenium of scholarship has been able to do is to deduce the science of usul al-fiqh, which contains a large number of maxims, some general, some specific, that along with texts provide the rulings we derive. Thus at best we can say the criteria Islam uses is the Sharia, and negates all these alternative approaches to morality - each of which is fundamentally flawed.
What's flawed about the Golden Mean thesis?
And why is Islam not, in your opinion, 'a religion of peace' when Allah is all-loving and brotherhood and unity are central and prophet Muhamad( saww) himself was known to be kind, friendly etc?
Also, no-one's asking for reductionism about the Shariah, i don't remember requesting one word answers (:
#Before you look at the thorns of the rose , look at it's beauty. Before you complain about the heat of the sun , enjoy it's light. Before you complain about the blackness of the night, think of it's peace and quiet... #
It works for moral characteristics like:
recklessness and cowardice - mean is bravery
overeating and starvation - moderate consumption
etc
but it does not work for:
too much riba - no riba = moderate amounts of riba ok
lots of knowledge - no knowledge = moderate amounts of knowledge
no love of prophet/allah - lots of love of prophet/allah - medium amount of love for prophet/allah
etc
Thus problematic!
Because you are selective in your citations - what do you make of:
- I have been ordered to fight the people until they say the shahadah
- Stone the adulterer
- Killing of Banu Quraizah and enslaving women and children
- Killing of apostates
- crucifixion/amputations for highway robbers
etc
Such slogans as "Islam religion of peace" may sound nice but are too simplistic to reflect Islam - also Islam means submission and not peace (which is salam).
You didn't ask for reductionism?
Does Islam kind of go by the Golden mean theory?
Can we reasonably believe in the Goldilocks effect?
Islam religion of peace
All these statements seek to reduce the complex and intricate nature of Islam to simple and reduced models/phrases/ideas...
what IS the Golden mean theory?
"How many people find fault in what they're reading and the fault is in their own understanding" Al Mutanabbi
@the the Golden Mean thesis. It's only meant to be used for virtues and vices in terms of morality. Knowledge etc, have nothing to do with morality. And also, if The Golden Mean thesis can be applied to some parts of Islam what's w rong with that? Why can we not just apply different concepts to Knowledge and 'riba' etc?
Secondly, I didn't ask if Islam could be reduced to one thesis I just asked if that was compatible with Islam.
Thirdly, I find it ironic that you accuse me of selectively choosing the bits of Islam that are nice when you selectively choose the parts that aren't.
I also never suggested it had to be only one thing.
#Before you look at the thorns of the rose , look at it's beauty. Before you complain about the heat of the sun , enjoy it's light. Before you complain about the blackness of the night, think of it's peace and quiet... #
Even the application of the golden mean to characteristics is problematic - eg, very pious and not pious - the mean would imply moderate piety is the best!
Also what does moderate piety actually mean? It is so vague to be almost useless.
I'm not criticising you for asking the question - the question was fine.
I'm not accusing you of anything - there is a modernist trend to pick the bits which are compatible with Western ideologies in their misguided attempt to blend the two ways of life! Like the Mutazalites in history who tried reconciling greek thought to Islam - many became Kafir over the issue. Not that different to some Muslims today - eg those who think that homosexuality is ok in Islam, or women can lead prayers or the Caliphate system is not from Islam.
Piety is probably a separate thing, a collection of other qualities etc. (notice how in the explanations the ranges are from two separate qualities and not from having one or not...)
Golden mean can be describes as a fit between some characteristics and not others.
Where it fits it can fit well. But on others it will not and it in itself is not the means of derrivation between right and wrong.
But as you mentioned before, we do not use it to actually decide what it right and wrong but use the qur'an and sunnah to actually decide what is right and wrong.
"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.