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Amendment 8 to the Constitution
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/funddocs/billeng.htm
There's always exceptions. That
is not always the case - infact, it very rarely is. A nine year old does not start to feel better about themselves because the perpertrator got roasted - if anything, a nine year old would BLAME her/his-self for the death and that would add to the trauma.
~Judgements prevent us from seeing the good that lies beyond appearances.~
"God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things. Right now I am so far behind that I will never die" ~ Bill Watterson
Does this apply to US citizens only?
Most of the children and rape victims (esp the children) I have talked to don't want to have the offender killed out of anger. Actually most are frightfully apathetic to the whole idea of the trial and punishment, but what they do repeat again and again is that they are terrified these people will find them and do it again.
Hard to find somebody when you are dead.
But much of the trial and punishment is the community's will as well. The community has a right to have these people off their streets in a more permanent capacity than life with possibility for parole. And the community has a right to seek retribution for what happened. If the community does not wish to provide these criminals with food, water, shelter, clothing et cetera for the rest of their lives - why should they?
The thing about life in prison is that it is far more humane than is due. These people do not sit and "rot" nor are they tortured in solitude. The courts have over the years decided that it is both cruel and unusual to withhold from these people the basic human necessities and on top of that social contact, recreation, and to a certain extent even career advancement opportunities (thus the reason you can take high school classes in prison).
As a tax payer - I have no interest in becomming Coueys new mommy. They guy raped and killed a 9 year old girl, after raping another young girl before. Obviously there is no rehabilitation for this guy. Rather than wasting my resources to feed him, clothe him, provide him with a weight room and cable television - i'd rather execute him and allocate those other resources toward the little girl, so that she can get some psychological help, maybe help with an education and a decent second change.
We should be giving the second chances to the [i]victims[/i] not the rapists.
Yes.
The Geneva Conventions apply to enemy combatants and there is a sort of hodgepodge of treaties dealing with foreign citizens, that amount to an extension of the above rights to foreign citizens in the United States.
Thus almost everyone is protected in one way or another.
Obviously there are people who fall between the cracks
The US Constitution is the contract of the people, the agreed upon rights and laws were designed by and for the people. The Constitution was never meant to apply to non citizens - they are not part of the contract.
Thus in a globalizing world where borders are becomming relics there are more complicated matters of citizenship in our court system popping up.
For the most part if you are a foreigner you will have access to the Federal Courts or the Military Courts.
Seriously, being able to have protection without taking lives is a strong argument for cities of refuge. An updated version IMO would be massive life-sentence prisons that are only guarded on the outside, that have to generate income in whatever way they can but with strict monitoring of communications. Prisoners would not get visits, they could hold remote meetings in this day and age but again, with limits on what kind of access to the internet and stuff. They could not argue for competitive rights, they only need to sustain themselves and pay bills. How they organise themselves is up to them, whether or not they are charitable with each other etc. So if they want food they have to earn it, and if they want compassion they have to rely on the friendships they make in prison, and that's punishment. Bodies for burial could be collected and families alerted. There is no appeal for good behaviour, it's for life. There is no compassion if they starve. But that is the maximum penalty, and it goes to mass murderers and multiple abusers.
So, who is needing this form of absolute justice? The actual victim, or the 'community'? So, the victims don't want the person killed, so it's everyone else's right. Smacks of organised, legalised vigilantism to me. Yes, I know that's a bit of a juxtaposition, but it's the best way I can think of to explain how it feels to me atm.
And tell me, honestly, how many people, once the convicted is fried, ever visit the victim, ever give them a second thought, ever send them a christmas card to say 'hey, you really did matter to me and I hope you're getting on better now' ?
Whether a nine-year-old's judgment is the right one according to the law or not, the best way to put them back onto the road to healing - is to give them back control. You may not like their opinion, but think enough of them and what they went through, to respect that opinion.
And yes, there's always exceptions to that
too.
~Judgements prevent us from seeing the good that lies beyond appearances.~
"God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things. Right now I am so far behind that I will never die" ~ Bill Watterson
In western law there are two people offended by the breaking of a crime mala in se (bad in and of itself) 1. the victim 2. the sovereign.
In your English courts I believe the prosecutors still act "in the name of the king"
You are breaking the laws of the sovereign and offending another citizen.
In the United States, the sovereign is the people, and as you move down our ladder of sovereignty the communities become smaller and smaller.
Thus in American law the community is as offended by a crime as the victim.
Afterall you wouldn't say the victim was a victim because the criminal disupted law of orderly affairs - that is how the sovereign is offended, the victim's person or rights have been infringed.
As for what the victims want I did not say that those I have talked to did not want the criminal to die - I said they were indifferent to the entire legal process including the trial and any punishment. Rightly so, for crimes of this magnitude it is no longer about the scales of justice being even. You cannot hand a child back her childhood or a woman back her pride. However the community still must be placated. If this were completely about the victim in many circumstances there wouldn't be a trial.
Criminals running around raping people and not going to trial isn't going to deter anybody.
As for criminals coming back to visit their victims - it's not something that happens often. Most sex offenders move on to a new victim.
It's not really a matter of statistics though, you cannot explain to a victim that their fears are not grounded in the statistical data. It's not something they will accept or in some cases understand. It's a matter of what they [i]believe[/i] and in most cases they believe they will be attacked again.
I'm not going to really give an opinion on giving the victim control, but I will say it is completely contrary to western justice to allow one interested party to have more control over the mechanisms of justice over another. This is true of both civil and criminal court. The US Courts are especially sensitive to remove even a community or government monopoly over the procedings of justice. The criminal must be judged by uninterested parties and sentanced by uninterested parties with punishments sanctioned by law.
Think of it this way - if the courts existed for the victims, how could we say there is a presumption of innocence when you go to court?
It simply cannot come down to one person's will competing against anothers.
Like I said before we are a nation of laws - not men.
Madison?
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
Yep
Guys like Madison and Jefferson always made me laugh because their sheer audacity.
When Jefferson found out about Shay's rebellion he said:
"a little rebellion is good now and then, the tree of Liberty needs to be refreshed from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots."
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
And we all know just how compassionate the law is :roll:
~Judgements prevent us from seeing the good that lies beyond appearances.~
"God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things. Right now I am so far behind that I will never die" ~ Bill Watterson
Sounds like something Rummy or Cheney would say about Iraq but more posh.
They taught you about Shay's Rebellion?
That's impressive
You must remember Jefferson was a Virginian - such a comment wouldn't be considered strange.
Their state motto is "such always to tyrants"
What does compassion have to do with law?
I believe that WAS my point
~Judgements prevent us from seeing the good that lies beyond appearances.~
"God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things. Right now I am so far behind that I will never die" ~ Bill Watterson
Yea...
But it intimated that the law has or should have some element of compassion to it...
capital punishment = deterrent by example.. sounds all good.
must admit there been some sick people gone through the electric chair in american history.
personally i dont see it working there as a deterrent, fancy media coverage gives everyone the initial shock treatment, then getting to terms with it, acouple of days after the event people stop talking about it.. and then its back to reruns of MASH.
im jus messing.
[b][i]Round and round the Ka'bah,
Like a good Sahabah,
One step, Two step,
All the way to jannah[/i][/b]
I studied American politics for a year in college (like le lycee, not uni)
and found the constitution intriguing so did some overkill on it, researching.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
I wish I had your enthusiasm for the Constitution. :roll:
I got a U the first time and an E the second time on the 100 Years of the Constitution History exam.
That'l certainly do it.
100 years of Constitutional History?
When did you take this exam 1889?
Wasn't exactly 100 years but that's what they called it.
It went from the Articles to the post-civil war reconstruction.
Interesting swath of history... did you go over the Marshall and Taney Courts or something - or was it amendments and legislative stuff?
Lol. Even with that E you quite probably know a considerable bit more than me.
Gentleness and kindness were never a part of anything except that it made it beautiful, and harshness was never a part of anything except that it made it ugly.
Through cheating, stealing, and lying, one may get required results but finally one becomes
We covered Marshal and Taney.
But it was mainly to do with how the presidents and politicians interpreted the constitution.
Eg, Alien and Sedition Act, secession, suspension of habeus corpus...
I doubt it.
Not bad - most high schools don't get into that much depth
And you lot get multiple choice examinations at high school. :roll:
I wish the US had more world history in it's curricula in large part because it interests me but also because American are drastically ignorant of other countries.
They need to learn to think continentally.
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