"irfghan" wrote:

Let's see if anyone can manage to blame this on the terrorists.

I think you mean "the tirrists"

Somebody is gonna get blaimed, I suspect Brown - Chertoff is too close. The press has a spine again so I suspect this'l stick.

Hey Jamal - what do you think of Chertoff?

[img]http://www.nationalvanguard.org/images/teaser/chertoff_large.jpg[/img]

Zombie or Vampire?

:shock:

The only thing that guy should be head of is the National "Friends don't let Friends Drink Blood" Campaign.

Joe Scarborough pointed out that Michael Brown managed to handle the Florida hurricanes with 'brutal efficiency'.

So what went wrong with New Orleans?

[size=18]Bush pleads for 'spirit of 9/11' [/size]

[b]President George W Bush has urged national
unity following the Hurricane Katrina disaster
and invoked the US response to the 9/11 attacks. [/b]

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4233266.stm]BBC[/url]

Nicely done. :roll:

"irfghan" wrote:

Joe Scarborough pointed out that Michael Brown managed to handle the Florida hurricanes with 'brutal efficiency'.

So what went wrong with New Orleans?

Joe is getting pretty creative with the word "efficiency"

Most of the Florida Hurricane preparations were handled by Florida state, the Feds basically just cleaned up the mess afterwards. There were a lot of problems with the Florida preparations though. In Ivan they ordered an evac of the florida keys on Sept 10th but canceled that three days later when they found out they didn't have enough coast guard patrols to pull everyone out.

The big difference between Katrina and the Florida Hurricanes is that there was a heavier reliance on the Feds in Katrina - and the Feds hadn't updated their preparation scenarios for close to six years for New Orleans. While Florida just gets hit with a standard cat 4 or 5 hurricane every year, New Orleans had the added trouble of being under sea level - with a big bucket of water hanging over their heads. Although it is inconcevably stupid the Feds never actually considered the levees would break.

I suppose of the Florida hurricanes the only one there is a point of comparison with is Frances. The Florida state emergency response office ordered something like 3 million people to evac. That was really successful however, again, the Fed involvement was not very helpful. They missed the mark on flooding, not only in Florida but all through the Atlantic creeping up into Delaware. There was lots of damage down in SC and Georgia - but a great deal more flooding in Central florida especially Clearwater which got crushed.

It wasn't nearly as extensive as New Orleans, nor was the flooding in concentrated areas of people but the damage and response was much the same - very slow, the Feds appeared to be behind on what was going on, didn't consider the implications of a tropical storm outside florida.

Hurricane Charley was just shere stupidity too. That's not really a Florida hurricane exclusively but it was part of that very strange series that hit us last summer. It touched down in florida and stayed their briefly and then basically just walked right up the Atlantic - hit SC hard but Boston and NE got anihilated. Gov Sanford had Myrtle beach evacd and upper Florida was basically the way New Orleans is today.

Lots of looting, lawlessness and lack of basic human necessities in upper Florida for that one - kind of a microcosm of New Orleans.

These guys just don't learn. I am terrified at what is going to happen with Ophelia - that's coming straight at Georgia and SC, prolly will make landfall in the Carolinas :shock:

My parents were saying that the President was good enough to warn us to "look out" for it.

That's some federal preparation. Times like these it's not so bad going to school outta state.

"irfghan" wrote:

[size=18]Bush pleads for 'spirit of 9/11' [/size]

[b]President George W Bush has urged national
unity following the Hurricane Katrina disaster
and invoked the US response to the 9/11 attacks. [/b]

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4233266.stm]BBC[/url]

Nicely done. :roll:

We are unified!

Since he isn't up to the job of helping people in Louisiana we're doing it for him. There are places to donate all over the place, private citizens are chartering planes to get people out - there are folks on boats roaming around tryin to get people out. Folks are taking survivors into their homes because the feds are turnin em down at the astrodome.

Yep - good and united.

The President can join the party too if he wants! All he has to do is stop blaming everybody for his mistakes, actually [i]evacuate[/i] people, pump the water out of the city and fix the rest of the levees.

[color=red]Dave....good day to u sir....firstly let me apologise most profusely for my profanity, and i mean dat most sincerely, bro.....oh the inarticulate rage of da working class!

D, i shuld thank u for comparing for comparing me to an arsenal fan...arse nal fans r generally middle class stock brokers slumming it in a bid to look cool wit da working class....dats a promotion for a yobbo chelsea boy like gerogi!

anyway d, i think we r in accordance wiv da fact dat the current US government, and the relevant local authorities, are completley incompetent and corrupt and have badly let down the poor, mainly black, victims of dis disaster...we disagree on the issue of class and race...u believe dat if the hurricane had hit rich white areas it would have made no difference to the gov response.....quite frankly, old boy, i think dat is utterly preposterous...

in every money hungry capitalist society, the poorest (and darkest) get trampled on when disaster strikes...george bush doesnt care about the poor and the black, as im sure u know, but wont admit...which is why he didnt plan for this disaster...too busy elsewhere i guess...

dis whole event exposes da shameful divisions of wealth, class and race in da land of da free, which r obvious to all....

so da oil production was hit as well? boo hoo, maybe we shuld ask da poor of bangladesh to organise a whip around to aid da poor suffering oil magnets...who needs bread when rich americans lose a few dollors!

well...u got iraqs oil now to make up for it! how lucky, and convenient!

now dis clown (bush, not u d) evokes da spirit of 9/11 to save his sorry ass....whoops, dat shuld be posterior, forgive my foul mouth D...

da poor, largely black, have been left to be washed away, then left to fend for themselves, which is shocking and disgraceful...i didnt see too many white ppl complaining dat their kids hadnt eaten for 5 days...then da “shoot to kill” policy introduced to “restore order”...not at all racist of course!

many black americans perceive dis to be racist...how prejudice of dem!...well d, i have to agree wit them...sorry...lets compare dis response to the rapid and admirable response to the 9/11 catastrophe, where da brave ppl of america had da sympathy of all decent ppl in da world....if equal numbers of whites were drowning, or starving, would da response have been so inadequate? i doubt it, d...

a few salient points/questions...(wow! look at georgi useing such big words!)

- how many black ppl vote republican?
- would da infrastructure of new orleans have been so run down and neglected, have such corrupt, inept, local officaials if it were full of rich wasps?
- all of dis in spite of the years of warnings about da potential destruction of a hurricane like “katrina”?
- so exactly why were FEMA so useless and underprepared?

(btw d, i am ALSO a white anglo-saxon protestant, thou not as rich as u )

black anger is entirely justified....d, ur “facts” and “evidence” is not worth da paper its written on...u r in denial...the poor r not considered important enuff to plan ahead for, just like in MY land....why do we spend so much time, money, blood( a hell of a lot of blood) sweat and tears on forcing phony “democracy” on da rest of da world, when we cant even look after r own poor?

u didnt answer da question d,...why shul i accept ur views rather than those of black victims? cos of ur “experience in gov”....leave it out d...u makin cups of coffee for bureaucrats is irrelvant...

i respect jesse jackson and da gallent kanye west for havin da guts to tell da truth....its just like nas, another fine black american, said

“blood of a slave..
heart of a king
braveheart!”

btw dave....i really do like u...i think u a good man....and i luv america and its ppl...apart from da morons in ur government....so good luck wit ur future career...in, or out, of government

HOPE LIES IN DA PROLES![/color]

George,

Thank you for the apology - very classy of you.

I'll skip directly to your questions.

1. 11% of black voters who voted in the 2004 Presidential election voted for George W. Bush.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

I do not know the number of black voters who voted Republican - that is very broad and depends on the region. Typically minorities vote liberal, in the early 1900s and late 1800s they voted Repulican, today they vote predominently Democrat.

2. I do not quite understand your question here... Generally speaking New Orleans was a very well laid out city, wide streets with well planned out sewer systems and a charming historic quarter. It was a bit unusual because surrounding New Orleans are the Bayous - essentially swamplands created by small rivers with little to no infrastructure. New Orleans was particularly strange because the suburbs were less desirable than the somewhat more urban shorline property. The racial divide of the city in terms of living arrangements was less pronouned than in other American cities - I suspect because of the Bayou. Also, New Orleans especially is home to some of the wealthiest people in the South - for the most part chemical barons. They have been major polluters in the region for years and are probably going to get more attention in the next several months. The infrastructure was not rundown and there were a lot of wealthy people in NO. The only reason the levees failed is because they were never really designed to handle a hurricane.

3. Yes, all of this in spite of years of potential and practical experience with hurricanes like Katrina - bare in mind though that the real killer here was the lake emptying into the city, it probably would not be underwater if that hadn't happened.

4. FEMA was unprepared because they did not plan for the levees to break and they relied too much on local officials (as they routinely do in Florida) to prepare. Whereas Florida is pounded every season and have a model state office to deal with it - thus the feds are there only for the pickup, louisiana sees less direct damage from hurricanes - that is, hurricanes touching down on them. Consequently the federal plan was to assist in small search and rescue missions after the hurricane and provide nominal assistance. This conformed to the administrations 2003 plan to streamline the office, presumably so that his tax cuts could be affordable. (I don't know if Euros know this but Kyoto was also partly cut to afford tax cuts). Had the feds prepared for the ultimate disaster - the levees breaking, you probably would have seen the army corps of engineers in a day before the storm reinforcing the levees, and more extensive evac procedures; however that is largely conjecture and the 2005 budget doesn't really agree with me on the possibility of mobilizing the corps.

Out of curiosity why are you so preoccupied with class?

I'm wealthy your "working class" arsenal fans are "middle"

Maybe he's a Commy! :shock:

hey dave...look i gonna cut out da smart comments dis time...i just wanted here ur opinion on da issue of class and race in usa, and in capitalist societies everywhere...

u replied to my "salient points" but u skipped da other comments...i think they were fair points...

i really do admire american ppl, believe it or not....

why i so obbsessed wit class...?

im a christian socialist...

i am DEF not a commie, irfan!...

i get it from my scotch grandad, his friends used to call him [color=red]"fred the red",[/color] he was a trade union boy, he woulda hated the current "labour" government...also i worried about excessive capitalism in dis country...

i think too many pple believe dat the only way to judge success is by how much a man got in his wallet...thus da gov is only interested in tax cuts for buisnessmen not better working and living conditions for da poor

lol a christian socialist... this explains our different paradigms.

I'm a Christian and an elitist. I never saw anything wrong with some people being on top and earning their right to be there, but I have always understood it to be the particular duty of those on top to make the system work justly, and fairly.

My views on race and poverty in America are as follows:

In a perfect capitalist society race does not matter - those who accomplish are rewarded for their accomplishment naturally, and not because they are from preselect group.

However in our present capitalist society people of color often get the short end of the stick. I believe this is not so much a matter of whites flat out not accepting them anymore, but rather a lack of opportunity to build up and demonstrate their merits. Education opportunities are laxed due to a byzantine tax structure and there appears to be a culture in which young black men - if they are expected to succeed are not expected to succeed based on real virtues, like their intelligence or moral character, but rather on their athletic ability or ability to "spit rhymes." These stereotypes are a large part of the problem - you can see it in schools that emphasize the basketball court more than the classroom for young black men.

In a perfect democracy all citizens vote and the minority classes are protected - there is nothing wrong with this.

In our Democracy blacks do not vote as much as whites, this is a known fact - but why? Lots of reasons, political apathy is a large part to do with it - this is the fault of both government and black people. Many believe the system is inherently against them when it is not - it is inherently the servant of the most populous group, but their rights are protected. However it will require more from them - they have to own those rights. On the other side of the story government is always trying to cut things that blacks - specifically poor blacks find beneficial because there is no voting consituency to tell them not too. It's miscommunication all the way around.

They work - capitalism and democracy. Without the social safetynets democratic societies build capitalism would completely neglect the losers until they have something innovative to contribute. They correct each other and form a very impressive machine that both encourages innovation creativity and advancement, while allowing input by all groups and providing social structures to manage all citizens needs, including those left behind.

From an elitist perspective it is my duty as one who has enjoyed the fruits of democracy and capitalism - not to scrap it, but to fix it.

I see initiatives like racial quotas and affirmative action (I use that as it is commonly understood and not as it actually is) are a step in the wrong direction, it's not fixing the problem it's patching over it.

I consider myself the direct inheritor of this system of government - aside from the fact my ancestors signed the declaration of independence and built the economy, it has always been taught to me that the lucky ones have to give something back.

And that is my perspective.

As for how people shuld be judged, the only way to judge a person is by their virtues and by how they exercise those virtues on the world around them.

"St George" wrote:

i am DEF not a commie, irfan!...

I was kidding Georgy.

Come to the hug-fest thread and I'll make it up to ya.

I was saddened (and infuriated!) by some people's response to the tragedy which hit New Orleans, Louisiana, and other places. just because it happens to be in the U.S., i have heard comments such as 'they deserved it'. where has people's compassion for mankind gone?

muslims, non-muslims, whites, blacks, asians; all were affected likewise. Mother Nature doesnt differentiate!
New Orleans has a large muslim community, there are madaaris set up there. i have relatives who lived there, 3 generations of the family had lived in the same house in new orleans for years - now they are staying indefinitely with family members in Dallas, Texas. they saw their area of New Orleans on the telly, completely underwater - all u could see of the houses were the rooftops.

what makes it worse is the fact that in New Orleans this disaster was probably preventable - if the levees were maintained well, they wouldnt have broken, and the flooding would have been nowhere near as bad. it makes u wonder if this is really the U.S. we are referring to. Bush obviously doesnt care for his own people, let alone those in Iraq and Afghanistan...

I agree!!!!!

i cant stand "kafir haters"

they are worthless, insenstive UNISLAMIC individuals :evil: :evil:

"Aasiyah" wrote:

I was saddened (and infuriated!) by some people's response to the tragedy which hit New Orleans, Louisiana, and other places. just because it happens to be in the U.S., i have heard comments such as 'they deserved it'. where has people's compassion for mankind gone?

muslims, non-muslims, whites, blacks, asians; all were affected likewise. Mother Nature doesnt differentiate!
New Orleans has a large muslim community, there are madaaris set up there. i have relatives who lived there, 3 generations of the family had lived in the same house in new orleans for years - now they are staying indefinitely with family members in Dallas, Texas. they saw their area of New Orleans on the telly, completely underwater - all u could see of the houses were the rooftops.

what makes it worse is the fact that in New Orleans this disaster was probably preventable - if the levees were maintained well, they wouldnt have broken, and the flooding would have been nowhere near as bad. it makes u wonder if this is really the U.S. we are referring to. Bush obviously doesnt care for his own people, let alone those in Iraq and Afghanistan...

Straight on.

Like I said before - if there is even one good thing that comes out of this, it's that it opened a lot of people's eyes about how well Bush handles rebuilding.

If this is how he handles the USA... Iraq must be a nightmare of preventable tragedies.

I hope your family is holding up well, this must be hell for them right now.

Shout out to Dallas - I hear the city offered the astrodome without any federal provocation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4243966.stm

"Aasiyah" wrote:

I was saddened (and infuriated!) by some people's response to the tragedy which hit New Orleans, Louisiana, and other places. just because it happens to be in the U.S., i have heard comments such as 'they deserved it'. where has people's compassion for mankind

Ofcourse they do not deserve it but IMO God did dat so america don't have enough money to go to war with Iran and any other country with oil...

I feel sorry for da victims and i will pray for them...

"Judda" wrote:

Ofcourse they do not deserve it but IMO God did dat so america don't have enough money to go to war with Iran and any other country with oil...

lol, then God failed.

The total cost is 26 billion to the private sector, so far including mobilization it's costed the feds a couple hundred million.

That's not even 1/200th of the military budget for last year.

"Dave" wrote:

"Judda" wrote:

Ofcourse they do not deserve it but IMO God did dat so america don't have enough money to go to war with Iran and any other country with oil...

lol, then God failed.

The total cost is 26 billion to the private sector, so far including mobilization it's costed the feds a couple hundred million.

That's not even 1/200th of the military budget for last year.

okay, just summing that sprung to mind, i always come up with du.mb stuff like that....

so they is still gonna go to war?

Nope, it's all talk.

Screw money - we do not have the troop levels to handle a war.

We tried mobilizing the European command and transferring them to CENTCOM but even that didn't do it.

Recruitment levels are presently too low - if Bush actually knew anything about the military he would have known the UNICOMS were built to handle a maximum of two parts in every command. Afghanistan and Iraq are both in CENTCOM, and now he is surprised he doesn't have the capacity for Iran.

Multilateral movement is out of the question since 1. We probably wouldn't get European support, and 2. Bush doctrine is against multilateralism. I suppose there is a decent argument to be made that a militarily nuclear Iran as a hostile nation poses a threat under the articles of NATO alliance military action pact, but I wouldn't imagine NATO would really be all that dedicated at the moment.

And the U.N. is a joke.

That said if Iran gets or tries to develop nuclear weapons a draft isn't out of the question, might not be necessary since recruitment would go way up - the US public is not interested in a nuclear Iran. They could possibly transfer some of the Pacific Command and almost all of the European Command to take part in the invasion successfully and then rotate new recruits in. That would work with Rumsfeld's "rolling military" strategy - a sort of update of the blitzkrieg that keeps the military moving and fills in afterward, it ultimately uses less troops and more resources, but I think as we see in Iraq isn't so good at rebuilding or maintaining order.

Basically my point is don't be too concerned over Iran, i've argued many times that we are justified for keeping the military option on the table, but it is the least desirable scenario for a lot of reasons, i'm thinking there is only a 20% chance we are actually going to see a war.

More than likely we will come to some sort of inspection deal, or let them go nuclear and allow them to accept the likelyhood that if some sort of nuclear indescretion were to occur on their part, or on the part of terrorists linked to them, they would be facing the wrath of the most sophistocated nuclear power on Earth.

Wow that's jingoistic - let me retry that.

We have a cowboy in office. If we are hit with nukes, he [u]will[/u] erase Iran. He's not the kinda guy that will debate for several hours the finer points of human nature and if "this makes us as bad as them." While most presidents might consider using strategic nukes to handle their army and conquer the country, he would probably just blow it up.

Perhaps with that thought in mind the Iranians will be judicious with their nuclear actions.

"Dave" wrote:

That's not even 1/200th of the military budget for last year.

WHY THE HELL DID THE CHEAPSKATES ACCEPT MONEY OFF BANGLADESH?

DON'T U HAVE NO SHAME?

OR DO YOUR GOVERNMENT JUST LIVE UP TO UR REPUTATION OF BEING THE DUMBEST NATION IN THE WORLD?

I IS AGREEING WITH GEORGY BOY!

BUSH IS A RACIST, HE MAY NOT BE DOING IT DIRECTLY BUT HE IS DOING IT INDIRECTLY

In a newspaper I read;
"not all muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorists are muslims"

I say;
"not all americans are racist but almost all americans are racist"

the administration know that they can get away with slacking coz its only a bunch of niggers it dont matter duz it dave?

"Judda" wrote:

"Dave" wrote:

That's not even 1/200th of the military budget for last year.

WHY THE HELL DID THE CHEAPSKATES ACCEPT MONEY OFF BANGLADESH?

DON'T U HAVE NO SHAME?

OR DO YOUR GOVERNMENT JUST LIVE UP TO UR REPUTATION OF BEING THE DUMBEST NATION IN THE WORLD?

I IS AGREEING WITH GEORGY BOY!

BUSH IS A RACIST, HE MAY NOT BE DOING IT DIRECTLY BUT HE IS DOING IT INDIRECTLY

In a newspaper I read;
"not all muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorists are muslims"

I say;
"not all americans are racist but almost all americans are racist"

the administration know that they can get away with slacking coz its only a bunch of niggers it dont matter duz it dave?

lol whoa.

The former FEMA office is now with Homeland Security which is underfunded - they do not draw funds from the military budget since it is not military. Further, so far all of the assistance that has been offered is private and not governmental, it's donations to the Red Cross (a private organization) et cetera that go directly to the ground level operations the FEMA is failing so miserably at. It's not Bangladesh sending a check to Chertoff for X amount of money.

Finally I think you have to bare in mind countries have only [i]offered[/i] money, assistance et cetera - I may be wrong but as far as I know we have accepted nothing so far, at least monetarily.

As for Red Cross donations from other nations it is very generous but they are a private organization thus we cannot reject it - it's their decision and quite a generous one on the part of many nations.

I can't seem to find anywhere that shows which countries America has accepted assistance from...

- let's avoid the N word, it's very offensive to many black people no matter how you use it, or what point you are trying to make.

[i]On a Total Aside: I can go into this later but it seems to me that mainstream pop culture is racist in that it tries to strip the seriousness from that word by having pumped up rappers and sports stars throwing it all around. It sends out two messages - young black men are either meant to be rappers or sports stars, and that the n word is some sort of "black people only" word and should be used just to keep whites out of the black club - this is of course ridiculous, they are intentionally leaving out the fact that it is a derogatory term used against blacks for well on 2 centuries, and was hurled at dying burning black men hanging from trees for petty crimes like stealing bread, while everybody around them had a picnic. I swear mainstream "gangsta rap" - the Dre stuff has done more to hurt black people in this country in the last ten years than anything else I can think of. It's exploitive. Rappers like Mos Def talk about it a lot but they never get attention when they do - they just get brushed off as "black nationalists"[/i]

And we're back.

Like I said before, this could have been whitetopia a land filled with Bush supporters (well... actually it is) and the Feds could not have done anything. They didn't have the budget, experienced leadership, or now to a certain extent authority to help.

Bush anihilated the department well before Louisiana even felt a breeze.

"Dave" wrote:

lol a christian socialist... this explains our different paradigms.

I'm a Christian and an elitist. I never saw anything wrong with some people being on top and earning their right to be there, but I have always understood it to be the particular duty of those on top to make the system work justly, and fairly.

My views on race and poverty in America are as follows:

In a perfect capitalist society race does not matter - those who accomplish are rewarded for their accomplishment naturally, and not because they are from preselect group.

However in our present capitalist society people of color often get the short end of the stick. I believe this is not so much a matter of whites flat out not accepting them anymore, but rather a lack of opportunity to build up and demonstrate their merits. Education opportunities are laxed due to a byzantine tax structure and there appears to be a culture in which young black men - if they are expected to succeed are not expected to succeed based on real virtues, like their intelligence or moral character, but rather on their athletic ability or ability to "spit rhymes." These stereotypes are a large part of the problem - you can see it in schools that emphasize the basketball court more than the classroom for young black men.

In a perfect democracy all citizens vote and the minority classes are protected - there is nothing wrong with this.

In our Democracy blacks do not vote as much as whites, this is a known fact - but why? Lots of reasons, political apathy is a large part to do with it - this is the fault of both government and black people. Many believe the system is inherently against them when it is not - it is inherently the servant of the most populous group, but their rights are protected. However it will require more from them - they have to own those rights. On the other side of the story government is always trying to cut things that blacks - specifically poor blacks find beneficial because there is no voting consituency to tell them not too. It's miscommunication all the way around.

They work - capitalism and democracy. Without the social safetynets democratic societies build capitalism would completely neglect the losers until they have something innovative to contribute. They correct each other and form a very impressive machine that both encourages innovation creativity and advancement, while allowing input by all groups and providing social structures to manage all citizens needs, including those left behind.

From an elitist perspective it is my duty as one who has enjoyed the fruits of democracy and capitalism - not to scrap it, but to fix it.

I see initiatives like racial quotas and affirmative action (I use that as it is commonly understood and not as it actually is) are a step in the wrong direction, it's not fixing the problem it's patching over it.

I consider myself the direct inheritor of this system of government - aside from the fact my ancestors signed the declaration of independence and built the economy, it has always been taught to me that the lucky ones have to give something back.

And that is my perspective.

As for how people shuld be judged, the only way to judge a person is by their virtues and by how they exercise those virtues on the world around them.

Dave...noble sentiments, but in reality democracy does not really hold the elites in check...do ppl “on top” really earn their position...or do they “inherit” it thru an accidnet of birth, and then fight tooth and nail to preserve the status quo?

how much do da elite really know, let alone care, about da conditions of da poorest of society...its easy to blame them for their feckless behaviour...eases da guilt of da rich...

without da wage earner, da rich business men would have nothin...how rich businessmen can make 100s of workers redundant, at da stroke of a pen, is shocking...these ppl r left to rot with kids to feed and mortgage to pay, while fat cats award themselfs a huge bonus...large brandys all round... i live near heathrow airport, last month 500 wkrs, on minimun pay, were sacked by text message on their mobile phone!

britain is becoming far too business orientated...i dont like it at all...godless, greedy, cold hearted, uncaring capitalism is da reality for many...money is all we judged by, look how many awards their are for “businessmen of da yr” and all dat...

profit is god...money hungry capitalism brings out da worst in ppl...anyone sellin things will lie and deceive to satisfy their lust for cash...to hell with community or anything else...its all me me me.... ive heard dat in the usa, a huge proportion of ppl are without medical insurance or cover...in dis country many are callin for da death of our national health service...money rules...prob why da poor turn to crime...

im not sayin dat the rich want to grind da noses of the poor, but the trickle down effect doesnt trickle down too far..low tax/small government brigade consider da underprivileged...aka...“workers” (how old fashioned is dat term these days!) a burden on them, so any attempt to genuinely advance the social, educational, political position of the poor is fiercely resisted by most govs in da world....

in simple terms, they aint prepared to reduce their profit margin...

i once heard a christian preacher call the sermon on the mount as socialist in spirit.. dats were i comin from...jesus taught us da importance of social justice and equality..he fought da corrupt greedy elites of his society....

im not for crazy tax hike for da rich, but i am for da condition of da poorest to be improved by direct action from gov..

"St George" wrote:

Dave...noble sentiments, but in reality democracy does not really hold the elites in check...do ppl “on top” really earn their position...or do they “inherit” it thru an accidnet of birth, and then fight tooth and nail to preserve the status quo?

how much do da elite really know, let alone care, about da conditions of da poorest of society...its easy to blame them for their feckless behaviour...eases da guilt of da rich...

without da wage earner, da rich business men would have nothin...how rich businessmen can make 100s of workers redundant, at da stroke of a pen, is shocking...these ppl r left to rot with kids to feed and mortgage to pay, while fat cats award themselfs a huge bonus...large brandys all round... i live near heathrow airport, last month 500 wkrs, on minimun pay, were sacked by text message on their mobile phone!

britain is becoming far too business orientated...i dont like it at all...godless, greedy, cold hearted, uncaring capitalism is da reality for many...money is all we judged by, look how many awards their are for “businessmen of da yr” and all dat...

profit is god...money hungry capitalism brings out da worst in ppl...anyone sellin things will lie and deceive to satisfy their lust for cash...to hell with community or anything else...its all me me me.... ive heard dat in the usa, a huge proportion of ppl are without medical insurance or cover...in dis country many are callin for da death of our national health service...money rules...prob why da poor turn to crime...

im not sayin dat the rich want to grind da noses of the poor, but the trickle down effect doesnt trickle down too far..low tax/small government brigade consider da underprivileged...aka...“workers” (how old fashioned is dat term these days!) a burden on them, so any attempt to genuinely advance the social, educational, political position of the poor is fiercely resisted by most govs in da world....

in simple terms, they aint prepared to reduce their profit margin...

i once heard a christian preacher call the sermon on the mount as socialist in spirit.. dats were i comin from...jesus taught us da importance of social justice and equality..he fought da corrupt greedy elites of his society....

im not for crazy tax hike for da rich, but i am for da condition of da poorest to be improved by direct action from gov..

Some do inherit it through accident of birth, thus making them elite and subject to safeguarding the institutions that brought them or their families there. The institution (in a democracy) that holds the elite in check is the legislature. The institution that holds the legislature in check is the Constitution. The idea being that while the majority should carry the nation, they might engage in rather dubious activities against the minorities (originally the elite property holding classes but now other minorities)

How much do the elite know about poverty?

Okay let's turn that on it's head, how much do the poor know about wealth and it's accumulation? Would you trust the poor to create a sound economic policy? It's easy to dream about wealth distribution and quotas in the work sphere - but in practice we have seen it fail too many times. The principles of economics appear to be self evident. I highly doubt when you buy an item you are buying the more expensive items that were made by companies with good pension plans for the average worker and better health care policies are you? You would be in a small minority if that were the case. Most people buy the least expensive item. Economics is driven by human desire, and until a major change in human desire occurs the natural trend will be toward capitalism.

That said, shouldn't it be the responsibility of those who have a more intimate knowledge of how the system works - to make sure that it works to the best interests of everyone involved? Elites do often try to cheat the economics and force the system to benefit themselves but it ends in disaster - look at tyco, enron, and worldcom.

The Elite might not know the personal physical conditions of homelessness as well as homeless people, but they certainly have a more intimate knowledge of the forces at work which could have contributed to homelessness.

As for their incentive - if they want to make sure that their personal accumulations are safe they must make sure the vast majority (which is middle class) is stable and pleased.

This is not always the case given the fact few poor people vote.

I disagree about money being God, I think there are a lot of honest businessmen especially on the ground level.

But as for the health care problems in the United States you are forgetting that just last year we passed a bill to cover presciption drug costs for people on their med bills.

But heres a question for you - is it more immoral to not enact these measures than to enact them when we cannot afford them?

The American example shows us that it is impossible to create a welfare state - Europe is learning this too as we withdraw our troops and they must rely on themselves for security.

Germany's welfare state is crumbling.

But the US is headed for a nightmare. Presently we have a 75 trillion dollar debt in unfunded liabilities - this is not the national debt, but rather the amount of money the government is promising to dish out to people after subtracting for the amount of money it is projected to take in to pay for those liabilities.

Debt simply means pushing off for the next generation.

Elites simply believe that while a social safetynet is a very good thing, it must be within fiscal reason. Only pay for what can be afforded.

I'm not sure why you are talking about trickle down economics - they died with Newt Gingrich. The new economic model is supply side economics - don't worry about debt, it's natural - just spend the money and pay for it later.

Unfortunately that's what leads to us going into a 300 billion dollar war and signing a bill that promises trillions in prescription drugs over the next few years.

Fiscal suicide - that will result in inflation (which tramples the poor) and possibly economic collapse.

The new idea is not "rich get richer poor get poorer" its "everybody gets richer - the kids can pay for it later"

Jesus did talk about helping the poor and not being grounded in economic wealth. Acts 4 32-37 provides a pretty socialist perspective on the early Christian Community. And while that is the best course of action for the Christian Community - it is not so for a world community. The seperation of church and state has meant that people from outside the Christian tradition have integrated (albeit not always successfuly) into western society. Should we enforce our Christian laws on them like we did in the good old days - as noble as those laws may be?

That's a digression.

I am for intervention by government to improve the status of the poor. I think first and foremost the education system needs to be revamped so that every person is working with the same tools. That would certainly improve the condition of the poor, but there are other steps as well - many poor people find themselves in behavioral cycles. They don't know how to do a budget or a meal plan for the week, they might have strange social ticks that make them undesirable in society, many have anger issues due to frustration and not learning how to release it in positive ways (or at least not destructive ways) There are a lot of programs available to address these issues but they are generally underfunded or unknown - that is a failure of the elite. Believe it or not the smallest portion of poor people are the ones that are facing such a challenging problem they will probably need to become wards of the state. These are people usually with very large psychological problems, or medical problems that face medical bills too high to pay themselves. Certainly in those instances the government should do the maximum to keep them afloat.

I get the impression from socialists that they don't understand the idea of judicious use of government funds. So long as socialist priorities do not conflict with capitalist or democratic institutions (and are fiscally sound) they are perfectly reasonable. Socialists seem to have this noble (but not altogether grounded in reality) idea that they can simply throw money at the problem in vast quantities and it will go away. I see it as a scale and not all problems go away with money.

Some poor people require very little to find their way out of the cycle, others require more and still others will never be out of poverty without government intervention.

You don't have to be radical to make a difference, the system doesn't need scrapping.

Quote:

[size=18]Hurricane looting not over yet[/size]

[size=12]JESSE JACKSON

While the victims are simply trying to get their bearings, the barracudas are circling. Naomi Klein, who witnessed this in Iraq, calls it "disaster capitalism." Congress has appropriated $62 billion already. Hundreds of billions more will be spent on reclaiming the Gulf Coast, rebuilding and relocation. The feeding frenzy has begun.

Already [b]Halliburton[/b] is on hand with a no-bid contract for reconstruction. [b]Fluor[/b], [b]Bechtel[/b], the [b]Shaw Group[/b] -- Republican-linked firms -- are lining up for contracts. Lobbyists like Joe Allbaugh, close friend of George Bush, and James Lee Witt, close friend of Bill Clinton -- both former heads of the Federal Emergency Management Agency -- are advising their corporate clients to get teams on the scene. Normal rules of contracting and competition are being waived in the emergency. Big bucks are on the table. It is a time to be wired politically.

President Bush characteristically issued an executive order effectively lowering the wages of reconstruction workers -- and hiking the profits of their companies. He wiped out the requirement to pay prevailing wages in the disaster region, apparently thinking that $9 an hour for construction workers was too high a price to pay. The government can save money, no doubt, by exploiting illegal immigrant labor.

Dispersed in 40 states, Katrina's victims are struggling to get by, as companies pick up contracts and others get the jobs. If New Orleans is rebuilt as an enterprise zone, private investors will wait for the government to clean up the mess and then build luxury condos to replace affordable housing. They'll turn New Orleans into a theme park, with its former residents unable to afford to come back.

The Bush administration's inaction and indifference after Katrina hit abandoned the poor and added to their suffering. It would be tragic now if action by the Republican Congress and the Bush administration added to the misery. These people already have had their past swept away by Katrina's furies. We should ensure that their future is not erased by right wing ideologues rewarding disaster capitalists and excluding those who suffered the most from the deal.[/size]

[url=http://www.suntimes.com/output/jesse/cst-edt-jesse13.html]Chicago Sun-Times[/url]

Makes ya' feel good about the inherent decency of man, dunnit?

I dunno about that, a man is basically a good creature.

A group of em are almost always up to no good though

OK... let's change that to 'inherent decency of a rich man' then.

lol

This is what i've been talking about:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/17/katrina.response/index.html

Finally this is getting media attention

George Bush seems to be using the word 'progress' alot when talking about the Katrina relief effort.
rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/hur/hur092005_bush.rm

But then he always says that 'progress' is being made in Iraq. :?