Chaos in Israel/Palestine

You —

Salaam.

1. Sharon has had a 'significant' stroke which has led to massive bleeding in the brain - possibly life threatening.

2. In Gaza the Palestinians do not seem to be doing themseles any favours whatsoever. They have stormed the border, The Alqasa martyrs brigade have fired bullets, and their leader is accused of asterminding the kidnapping of the three britons.

The chaos continue. On both sides.

Is Sharon irrelevant? Are the Palestinians destroying any hope of a Paestinian future?

Forum
General

You — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 21:31

I doubt it.

We have a way of calling almost everything blessed, holy etc.

I think it stems from a diferent culture, where since god created everything, it has a use... so anything can be holy...

You — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 21:34

Don KarnageWhy not Holy Al Qaeda then?

you'd be surprised. There are people who say that.

Medarris — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 21:45

For the record innocent jewish life cannot be taken.

Hamas wish to make palestine an islamic state, not a secular one like fatah or some of the other leftist parties. Hence it could be deemed "holy".

Medarris — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 21:47

Don KarnageAnd the fact that they kill innocent people does not strip them of this honor?

we are ALL sinners brother. God is Most Merciful.

Dave — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 21:52

Thus it can be said from your perspective that Hamas is a Holy party doing God's work in Palestine because they are the most active and successful support for Palestinians, even despite their terrorist activities which are forgiven because all people sin and God will forgive them.

Is that a fair summation?

Medarris — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 21:57

Don Karnage
Is that a fair summation?

bruv, thats not what I said and I cannot accept or reject your summation.

Dave — Fri, 27 Jan 2006 - 22:00

Med

Don Karnage
Is that a fair summation?

bruv, thats not what I said and I cannot accept or reject your summation.

Very well then just leave it as is.

Anybody else?

Sirus — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 01:21

Hamas won

whats the 411 on that

Juddah style - summary please....i havent been following news or sports last few days...

You — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 01:32

they got 72 of the 132 seats. fatah got 43.

Fatah activists want Mahmoud Abbas and his fellows to resign... Hamas has extended ahand of unity...

Israel has rejected any negotioations with a overnment that contains Hamas... the US is right up the tail with Israel...

Sirus — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 01:46

Adminthey got 72 of the 132 seats. fatah got 43.

Fatah activists want Mahmoud Abbas and his fellows to resign... Hamas has extended ahand of unity...

Israel has rejected any negotioations with a overnment that contains Hamas... the US is right up the tail with Israel...

who are fatah and what they all about......

whos Mahmoud Abbas........

who are Hamas trying to unite with.........

Israel hardly negotiated anyway...........

and i read the US arent happy, but who cares

they've never helped the Palestines, only the opposite

the palistinians need people who represent them and stand for em

only the muslims will help the muslims, Hamas all the way

*DUST* — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 02:32

Don KarnageAnd even (forgive me if I misunderstood) Dust:

*DUST*

MedIMPORTANT REQUEST:

Make dua for the holy party to be victorious.

InshaAllah they will be.

And anyone else who is of this opinion

Who are talking about Hamas in religious terms as if Hamas is doing God's work or will.

'Hamas is doing God's work or will' - if by that last word u are referring to my 'inshaAllah', then i think u have definitely misunderstood me. i literally meant: if God wills it, Hamas'll win. nothing more, nothing less. the reason behind this is because i am still unsure as to where i stand on Hamas. on the one hand they are doing much more than anyone else for the Palestinian people in terms of infrastructure - as Admin pointed out, there is more to them than just their 'armed wing' (also as GWB put it!;)). so i said i was happy that Hamas had won because they were the choice of the Palestinian people, and if the Palestinians are happy, so am i.
but then on the other hand, there is this issue of civilian deaths (i agree with Admin that IDF are legitimate targets) - Med go give that reason of yours to a family who has lost a child in a such a gruesome way. and yes, i know palestinian children are killed at a much larger scale, but two wrongs never make a right - jewish and palestinian children are equally ma'soom, how can we make excuses for either of their deaths? i can never make excuses for Hamas when it comes to the death of children or the elderly, or any innocent civilians. However, it is worth noting the point (which everyone seems to be conveniently ignoring) that Hamas have stuck to their last ceasefire, and theyv made it pretty clear that as long as Israel dont do anything stupid, neither will they. they also made it clear in their election campaign that they are working towards a better life for the palestinian people, atleast for the time being they are not interested in any negotiations with Israel i.e. everyone should leave them alone and see how they get on with their job!
basically dave, as u may have gathered: i am somewhat torn on the issue (but my general sentiments are best expressed by Admin on this thread).

also, my fault for not clarifying there and then in my answer to Med's post, but i myself would not label them a 'holy party' because that is for Allah to judge, i do not like putting religious labels on people and especially on groups/political parties.

Beast — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 11:11

HayderHamas won

whats the 411 on that

Juddah style - summary please....i havent been following news or sports last few days...

Maybe if you'd read the NewsBlog...

:roll:

Beast — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 11:24

Hayder
who are fatah and what they all about......

Fatah had been ruling Palestine for the last decade or so.

It was founded by Yasser Arafat as a militant resistence group but evolved into a political party.

It is a secular nationalist party.

Hayderwhos Mahmoud Abbas........

Mahmoud Abbas is the current president of Palestine.

He is from the Fatah party.

Hayderwho are Hamas trying to unite with.........

Hamas have said that they want to unite with Fatah.

Fatah has much more experience in government than Hamas.

Fatah have also dealt on a political level with Israel, whereas Hamas have not.

HayderIsrael hardly negotiated anyway...........

You could say that.

This is probably just another excuse not to negotiate.

But on the other hand you can't expect Israel to say that 'yes, we will negotiate with hamas even though they want to destroy us.'

Hayderand i read the US arent happy, but who cares

The US has been giving quite a bit of funding to the Palestinian gov. The US could withdraw this funding now that Hamas is in charge.

The EU is the biggest funder of the Palestinean gov. They could also withdraw funding.

Hayder
they've never helped the Palestines, only the opposite

It is very true that they give much more funding to Israel.

Hayderthe palistinians need people who represent them and stand for em

One reason why people were fed up with fatah was that it was involved in corruption and the peace process appeared not to be getting anywhere.

Hayderonly the muslims will help the muslims, Hamas all the way

Fatah are also Muslims.

Sirus — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 11:34

by that last statement, i meant you cant expect serious help from US, so why they are concerned i know not

the middle east is messed up....has been for some time.....maybe something might happen......give em a chance

why not TRY negotiations

clean slate

Dave — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 15:58

AdminHamas is more than the military wing they are described as.

Its a full social organisation.

Even from the military wing there are many different people with different ideas.

I will support legitimate operations against soldiers, and condemn the targetting of civillians.

The situation is different as they have no other way to resist occupation. They have no recognised army, no recognised borders, and the Israelis fight by bulldozing neighbourhoods, airstrikes, military assaults, assassinations, and grabbing important lands. They have a total control over everyrthing. Even the water supplies.

Just like the resistance in france in WW2, the things carried out can be unsavoury to say the least.

You cannot expect a people not to resist occupation. They will do whatever they can. After all Hamas et al were shut up after the Oslo peace accord. That did not achieve anything.

It was Ben Gurhon who said he will not stop fighting and committing terrorist acts until there was a home he could call Israel.

It was Ehud Barak who said if he were palestian, he would have become a terrorist.

So basically they are like the Nazis, with a military and civilian component.

The military component does the bad stuff, the civilian component does the socially acceptable stuff and they are both united under a political platform.

Therefore, one cannot blame the political (Nazis) Hamas for the deeds of military (Schutzstaffel) Hamas, because they are biforcations under the same movement.

If Al Qaeda were to start a political organization joined by ideological principle (Caliphate, Palestine, end of US intervention in the Middle East) to the terrorist organization, would anybody here support it?

You — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:04

There is a diference that Alqaeda is not currently fighting for liberation, and that the principle targets of violence for both are diferent.

Just like the insurgency in Iraq. I will not condemn it in general as it is a legitimate movement, but I am totally and unequivocally against all the kidnapings and murder of civilians that accompanies it.

Dave — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:13

Sure they are! They attacked the Pentagon to impair the US war-planning machine, and they attacked the WTC to impair the US economy/war-making machine.

They are fighting for a full US withdrawal from the middle east.

More recently they attacked Spain to convince them to withdraw from Iraq and they did. Thus helping liberate Iraq.

But Al Qaeda's political wing wouldn't be doing suicide bombing or any of that nasty stuff - it would all be political negotiation, based on the platform bin Laden repeatedly talks about.

So just forget the "military" stuff - that's a completely different wing.

Would you support such a political party, good issues under the banner of Al Qaeda?

You — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:31

why not?

If the democrats changed their tune and started political motions that you wanted, would you vote for them?

(I am ignoring the fact that Al Qaeda kills civillians, and only civillians... unless they fluke something.)

After all we are asked to have respect and sympathy for the citizens if the USA whilst its military is killing countless muslims, and invding countrieson false pretexts. We diferentiate here between the government, it military and the people.

Or should the people be accepted as acceptable target because of what the gov and the military are doing?

Beast — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:39

I don't think you can even compare Al Qaeda to Hamas. Any such comparison will look at them from a superficial perspective.

Hamas is an organised political militant party. It has a recognised hierarchy and a decision-making process. It is concerened primarily with Palestine.

Al Qaeda is loose propogandist movement. It has no structure and no 'membership'. It tries to incorporate as many different causes as it possibly can.

Dave — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:44

BeastI don't think you can even compare Al Qaeda to Hamas. Any such comparison will look at them from a superficial perspective.

Hamas is an organised political militant party. It has a recognised hierarchy and a decision-making process. It is concerened primarily with Palestine.

Al Qaeda is loose propogandist movement. It has no structure and no 'membership'. It tries to incorporate as many different causes as it possibly can.

So more like the Nazis than Al Qaeda?

Beast — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 - 16:49

Don Karnage
So more like the Nazis than Al Qaeda?

In that they are both political parties, yes, I suppose.

But whereas the Nazis sought to take over the world, Hamas seek to 'liberate Palestine'. 'Liberate Palestine' in their case can be defined very loosely. They may, and most probably will, drop certain goals from their constitution.

Fatah/PLO dropped calls for Israel's destruction and recognised the Jewish state a very long ago. And they did this after a violent campaign against Israel.

Sirus — Sun, 29 Jan 2006 - 12:41

Hamas floats Palestinian 'army'

The political leader of the Hamas militant group has said it could create a new Palestinian army following its surprise election victory.
Khaled Meshaal, who lives in exile in Syria, said the force would include its militant wing and would "defend our people against aggression".

His comments came after foreign powers called for Hamas to renounce violence.

Unrest continues in Gaza and the West Bank, with supporters of the defeated Fatah party staging violent protests.

Some involved clashes with Hamas activists, others were directed at the leadership of Fatah.

'No immunity'
Mr Meshaal said in the Syrian capital, Damascus, that Hamas had no plans to disarm.

"As long as we are under occupation then resistance is our right."

He said Hamas was ready to "unify the weapons of Palestinian factions, with Palestinian consensus, and form an army like any independent state... an army that protects our people against aggression".

But Mr Meshaal also said Hamas would abide by current agreements with Israel "as long as it is in the interest of our people".

Israel said on Saturday that no Hamas leaders would be immune from targeted killings if the group maintained aggression and continued to refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz said: "Whoever stands at the head of a terror organisation and continues to carry out terror attacks against Israel is not immune."

Senior Fatah figures also warned Hamas not to interfere in the Palestinian security forces - most of whom are linked to Fatah.

Gaza police chief Ala Hosni told Associated Press: "The security institution is a red line. We will not allow anyone to tamper with it."

Fatah supporters, security officers and members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade protested all over Gaza and the West Bank on Saturday following Hamas' victory.

Security forces in Gaza demanded Hamas figures responsible for killing policemen should be brought to trial.

Several people were wounded in an exchange of fire between Hamas supporters and members of Fatah in Khan Younis in Gaza.

In Ramallah on the West Bank, Fatah supporters also staged more protest against their own leadership, which they blame for the election defeat.

Some of the activists marched to the compound of Palestinian Authority leader and Fatah chief Mahmoud Abbas, later praying at the grave of former leader Yasser Arafat.

'Blackmail'

Mr Meshaal said he had been in contact with Mr Abbas and wanted to work in partnership with Fatah, although many senior Fatah officials say they do not want an alliance.

Hamas policy-maker Ghazi Ahmed Hamad said if Fatah did not join a government "we will try to form a government of technocrats".

Hamas has also rejected international calls for the group to renounce violence or face cuts in aid to Palestinians.

Ismail Haniya, who headed Hamas' election list, said: "This aid cannot be a sword over the heads of the Palestinian people and will not be material to blackmail our people, to blackmail Hamas and the resistance. It is rejected."

President George W Bush warned US aid, worth $400m (£225m), could be cut following Hamas' surprise poll win.

Hamas won at least 74 of the 132 seats in the Palestinian assembly and has the backing of a further four independent MPs.

BBC

*DUST* — Wed, 8 Mar 2006 - 12:19

BeastI don't think you can even compare Al Qaeda to Hamas. Any such comparison will look at them from a superficial perspective.

Hamas is an organised political militant party. It has a recognised hierarchy and a decision-making process. It is concerened primarily with Palestine.

Al Qaeda is loose propogandist movement. It has no structure and no 'membership'. It tries to incorporate as many different causes as it possibly can.

Hamas rejects al-Qaeda's support

Hamas has dismissed a message by al-Qaeda number two Ayman al-Zawahiri urging the Palestinian militant group never to make peace with Israel.

Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal said the movement had "its own vision" and did not need al-Qaeda's advice.

He was responding to a video statement in which Zawahiri called on Hamas - which won last month's Palestinian election - to continue to fight Israel...

🙂

100man — Wed, 8 Mar 2006 - 18:59

Fresh Princewho are fatah and what they all about......

whos Mahmoud Abbas........

who are Hamas trying to unite with.........

Israel hardly negotiated anyway...........

and i read the US arent happy, but who cares

they've never helped the Palestines, only the opposite

the palistinians need people who represent them and stand for em

only the muslims will help the muslims, Hamas all the way

If you can't answer those questions you're not qualified to follow up with those comments.

Beast — Fri, 17 Mar 2006 - 21:59

Abbas urged to quit, scrap government

Fatah officials have asked the Palestinian president to resign, dissolve the Palestinian Authority and return responsibility for the occupied territories to Israel in protest against Tel Aviv's actions.

Senior Fatah officials said on Friday the idea of scrapping the Palestinian Authority (PA) was debated for the first time on Thursday night by the Fatah central committee, which controls Mahmoud Abbas' faction.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Isn't this treasonous?