"terrorist" compared to William Wallace

Vedeno —

This article is by members of the US military regarding Shamil Basayev.

This guys is meant to be one of the biggest terrorists in the world and he is admired members of the US military! 😃

He's even compared to William Wallace from Braveheart
😂

Needless to say the Yanks have sinced changed their tune. :roll:

The Russian failure is due to a number of factors, not least of which has been the courageous leadership of a handful of Chechen leaders. As the US discovered in Somalia, so the Russians have learned that conventional military prowess is no match against rebel forces, led by skilled and committed leaders. This study will examine how one of the Chechen rebel leaders, Shamil Basayev, was able to bring the goliath of Russian armed forces to its knees.
Chechnya these days is a place where little boys barely old enough to talk tell strangers their name is Shamil Basayev--a guerrilla commander whom Moscow has considered a leading international terrorist since he led a mass hostage-taking in June 1995.2

Though highly improbable, one wonders if Shamil Basayev ever saw the movie Braveheart. The movie portrays William Wallace, and his attempt to lead his undermanned and poorly equipped Scottish army, in their fight for independence against the more powerful England. During the past two years, Shamil Basayev and a few thousand Chechen combatants have largely defeated the much larger and better equipped Russian military.

Though final determination of Chechnya's political status has been postponed for five years, for all practical purposes the Chechens have (for the time being, at least) won their independence. This article will examine Shamil Basayev and the role he played in gaining Chechen freedom.

Full article:

http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/shamil/shamil.htm

Forum
General

Dave — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 01:28

Vedeno

They are actually defending Beslan and Shamil... I seriously can't believe this, I mean here I am saying "the Chechens have a right to fight off the Russians" "the russians are child killing psychopaths in Chechnya" and I'm admiring chechen leaders like Maskhadov, but decry ONE truly rotten individual who runs off and does the exact same things the Russians do and the whackjobs work themselves out of the woodwork to defend him?!

As ive said to you before , try reading a post before replying , FOR GODS SAKE!

No-one that i know defends Beslan (i do explain what happened though and why)- Shamil himself basaically said that he regretted what happened.

People WILL defend Shamil coz he's the one Chechen that has lead the nation to victory before. The guys a hero in Chechnya for his past military achievements.
His anger at the death of Chechn children made him overstep the mark in Beslan - and he has like a man offered to pay the price and go on trial for what happened when the war is over.
Thats as much as he can do at the moment.

So to sum up , we dont defend Beslan , we do defend Shamil. We accept he made mistakes. We acknowledge and applaud his decision to pay the price for his mistakes. We support all his military operations against soldiers.

One or two mistakes wont make us hate him - regardless of how much you rant and rave.

Have a nice day Mr Karnage.

lol you make excuses for Beslan then sheepishly tack on "but I'm not defending Beslan!" to the bottom.

Yea, that's defending Beslan you idiot.

http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1970

Firstly why did it happen.
The answer to this can be seen in the first war . During the first war Chechen commander Shamil Basayev led a hostage-taking of a hospital in the town of Buddenyvosk. From this hostage-taking , the Mujahideen were able to secure a small ceasefire which was they used to regroup and - led again by Shamil Basayev - attacked and recaptured their main cities thereby forcing the russians out and ending the war and the genocide of their people.
In the Buddenyvosk operation the Mujahideen did not kill the hostages. This was also the intention of Beslan. They did not go their to kill children but to get a ceasefire , stop the genocide of their people and liberate them.

This is my personal favorite.

"We took hostages in a hospital the first time (wow... I mean really... wow) and since that worked we thought a school would be a great idea!!"

If you put armed men in a building filled with children, put all the children into a room filled with explosives, and then proceed to kill said children - your intention was to kill children.

A mistake is when I took a left turn on my way to lunch and ended up in North Charleston, planning and executing an attack to kill as many children as possible is criminal.

Unless you are saying they all accidentally fired their guns numerous times and set off their explosives accidentally thus resulting int he deaths of the children - then it's just reckless behavior.

Sort of like running with knives... except with guns explosives and children.

You are defending the Beslan attack - period. Quite coldly at that, it's rather amazing. Crawl back down whatever hole brought you here.

Vedeno — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 01:34

Where do they grow people this stupid? I'm not your friend, I don't like you - and I'm a big enough vindictive jerk to report you and the forum to the Pentagon if you don't comply. Their legal department doesn't screw around, Admin (as well as those at MPAC if you were [banned word] enough to pull this idiotic move) will be compelled to give them your IP, you'll be tried in a British court and fined.

Lol. Your not my friend? And there i was thinking we were best buddies. 😂

I suggest you grow a brainstem - at least work out your spelling BEFORE you post.

This is an internet forum , not an essay competition. Get used to it.

People make grammatical errors and typos , its what happens in internet forums - if you cant handle it i suggest you get out.

Why does it make a difference if he promised to obey international law before he killed children?

It shows his intentions. He just wanted to stop the death of Chechen children. Taking hostages was the final option - he tried other means.

If russia had accepted his offer of international law Beslan would never have happened.

He still killed children. You are saying we should give him a pat on the back for taking one out of the Russians book, I'm saying he should be hung right along side them. Why? Because of the CRIME, not the individuals purpetrating it.

He's gonna go on trial - as i said thats as much as he can do right now. The trial will take places once the war is over as Maskhadov originally stated.

At the end of the day you can't cram into your little fascist brain that Muslim children's lives aren't worth any more or any less than non-Muslim children's lives. I don't give Muslim child killers a by because they're doing it for God, the fact you do is dispicable and barbaric.

As usual your inability to comprehend simple English hinders you.

I didnt say Non-muslim children are worse or better. I didnt say Beslan should be applauded.
Your just a fool whose arguement revolves around how many lies he can make up.

So far you have made every idiotic excuse manageable defending Beslan, my personal favorite was Beslan was a-okay because "It worked last time." Now you're backing off because I posted pictures of the faceless victims whos murders you were just defending.

Aww... poor little vedeno has a case of situational morality.

No , my explanation for Beslan was always the same. Your ability to understand it however seems rather weak.

lol you've gotta have something better than that. Your heros are terrorists - baby killing terrorists. I mean how much worse an insult can that get? It's not like you're even one yourself! You are so useless, so completely inept you can't even pull off shooting children - you just have to admire from afar.

I can't even imagine how much you must hate yourself.

Please dont heap all your self-esteem problems onto me. Im not the right man to be telling your little problems.

Dave — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 01:50

VedenoThis is an internet forum , not an essay competition. Get used to it.

People make grammatical errors and typos , its what happens in internet forums - if you cant handle it i suggest you get out.

First, stop saying "I suggest" you say it every time you think you are making a clever jab - it's repetitive and annoying. Second, I don't care if it's an internet forum I'll berate you any way I see fit.

Why does it make a difference if he promised to obey international law before he killed children?

It shows his intentions. He just wanted to stop the death of Chechen children. Taking hostages was the final option - he tried other means.

If russia had accepted his offer of international law Beslan would never have happened. [/quote]

lol preparing an elaborate attack in which he herds children into an explosive filled room guarded by thugs with guns, announcing on television you will kill them unless somebody does something shows his intentions. Actually doing it confirms them.

Again you are making excuses for him.

He's gonna go on trial - as i said thats as much as he can do right now. The trial will take places once the war is over as Maskhadov originally stated.

And for the second time I ask you - How is that trial comming?

Didn't think so. - Find a new excuse.

As usual your inability to comprehend simple English hinders you.

Yes how "embarassing"

I didnt say Non-muslim children are worse or better. I didnt say Beslan should be applauded.
Your just a fool whose arguement revolves around how many lies he can make up.

You are defending Beslan, you do not accept culpability for Shamil, and said that it's for their "liberation" making it somehow okay. You do not look upon the deaths of Muslim children and the deaths of Russian children as equally dispicable, rather, the deaths of Muslim children are considerably more evil than the deaths of non-Muslim Children who's deaths are even advantageous.

You are dispicable.

No , my explanation for Beslan was always the same. Your ability to understand it however seems rather weak.

lol it's my ability to understand and see through your insane little excuses for Beslan that has you in such a twist. Now you are retreating, the pictures really did the job - you're not dumb enough to continue your hero worship and defense of the job while there are pictures up of dead children.

Please dont heap all your self-esteem problems onto me. Im not the right man to be telling your little problems.

lol ohhh and I've hit a nerve. :twisted: Go to bed, werk 0n yer speling, come up with a serious and steady defense/explanation/whatever it is you are trying to do about Beslan and Shamil, present said arguments, write them down on a piece of paper along with all your dreams of Jihad.

Then burn it and get a life. Wake up, you're useless.

Vedeno — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 01:52

lol you make excuses for Beslan then sheepishly tack on "but I'm not defending Beslan!" to the bottom.

Yea, that's defending Beslan you idiot.

Since ive come to realise im not dealing with the brightest chap in the world , im gonna keep this simple.

Do you know the difference between justifying something and explaining something?

I have explained Beslan many times. I havent ever said it was a good or justified act. As i said Shamil himself said he regretted the outcome.

This is my personal favorite.

"We took hostages in a hospital the first time (wow... I mean really... wow) and since that worked we thought a school would be a great idea!!"

Yes the hospital seige worked wonders for the people of Chechnya and led to Basayev becoming a hero.

Chechens enter hospital , take hostages , demand ceasefire. Russians get taste of own medicine , realise it doesnt taste so good and agree to ceasefire. Hostages eventually released , genocide stopped , hundreds of thousands of lives saved , Basayev is hero.
Do you understand this my foolish friend?

If you put armed men in a building filled with children, put all the children into a room filled with explosives, and then proceed to kill said children - your intention was to kill children.

A mistake is when I took a left turn on my way to lunch and ended up in North Charleston, planning and executing an attack to kill as many children as possible is criminal.

Unless you are saying they all accidentally fired their guns numerous times and set off their explosives accidentally thus resulting int he deaths of the children - then it's just reckless behavior.

Sort of like running with knives... except with guns explosives and children

Ah , now we're entering fantasy land.

Why dont you quote the hostages who said the Chechens didnt fire on them at all , and that all the firing in their direction was coming from the Russian side?
http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1970

If your gonna quote my post , quote all the relevant bits - not just the bits that support your half-truths.
It was the Russians who killed the children though Chechens were obviously to blame for taking them hostage. That is why Basayev has offered to go on trial. The Chechen side recognise their role in Beslan.

Vedeno — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 02:06

First, stop saying "I suggest" you say it every time you think you are making a clever jab - it's repetitive and annoying. Second, I don't care if it's an internet forum I'll berate you any way I see fit.

I quite like saying "i suggest". 😃

I suggest you stop your "berating". Makes you sound like a prat.

lol preparing an elaborate attack in which he herds children into an explosive filled room guarded by thugs with guns, announcing on television you will kill them unless somebody does something shows his intentions. Actually doing it confirms them.

Again you are making excuses for him.

No amount of "lol's" are gonna mask your weak arguements.

Lets look at facts.

Jan 2004 , Basayev agains offers to observe international law if Russia stops killing Chechen children and observes international law.
For the next eight months Russia continues its genocidal policies forcing Bsayev to try a more extreme measure to stop the killing of his people.

And for the second time I ask you - How is that trial comming?

Maskhadov said he and his government would try Basayev once the war was over. The Shariah courts will decide his fate.

Yes how "embarassing"

Must be.

You are defending Beslan, you do not accept culpability for Shamil, and said that it's for their "liberation" making it somehow okay. You do not look upon the deaths of Muslim children and the deaths of Russian children as equally dispicable, rather, the deaths of Muslim children are considerably more evil than the deaths of non-Muslim Children who's deaths are even advantageous.

You are dispicable.

I have already said Shamil shares responsibility for what happened which is why he will go on trial.
The rest of that little rant has been answered before - refer to the previous answers.

lol it's my ability to understand and see through your insane little excuses for Beslan that has you in such a twist. Now you are retreating, the pictures really did the job - you're not [banned word] enough to continue your hero worship and defense of the job while there are pictures up of dead children.

Since i only explained what happened in Beslan from the start , im not going back on anything. My point of view on Besla has always been the same.
Yes i will continue to defend Shamil while the pics are up - in fact ill do it again:

Shamil is a great man! May Allah (swt) bless him and grant him and the Mujahideen of Ichkeria victory. Ameen!
Allahu Akbar!

Dave — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 02:10

Vedeno
Since ive come to realise im not dealing with the brightest chap in the world , im gonna keep this simple.

Do you know the difference between justifying something and explaining something?

I have explained Beslan many times. I havent ever said it was a good or justified act. As i said Shamil himself said he regretted the outcome.

lol you're not explaining anything, you're offering an fantasy hero-worship inspired alternate ending.

The facts:

Shamil Basayev planned an attack on a school
Shamil Basayev held children in the school hostage (barbaric)
Shamil Basayev didn't get what he wanted and killed said children (also barbaric)

You're giving us this nonsense about how Shamil didn't intend to do it, felt really bad, didn't really want it to happen for x,y,z reasons but how conflicted could he have possibly been if he ordered them to butcher the children?

You're making bold faced lies to defend the actions of a man who intentionally, coldly and with intention murdered children.

Stop giving us this moral relativist, "morally conflicted killer" nonsense and face the facts, he killed children because he wanted to.

What prevented Shamil from saying "leave the building and do not shoot any children" or better yet "this plan involves killing children, that is morally reprehensible - no" - Nothing. He very clearly wanted this to happen, through careful planning intended it to happen, and in the end brought it to action.

Any unbiased idiot can see that. The problem is you are a biased idiot, you actually don't care if Russian children died as long as they weren't muslim.

Yes the hospital seige worked wonders for the people of Chechnya and led to Basayev becoming a hero.

Chechens enter hospital , take hostages , demand ceasefire. Russians get taste of own medicine , realise it doesnt taste so good and agree to ceasefire. Hostages eventually released , genocide stopped , hundreds of thousands of lives saved , Basayev is hero.
Do you understand this my foolish friend?

Thank you for proving everything I've said about you. This is ends justifys the means machiavellianism. You've abandoned that ludicrous argument that he never wanted this to happen because he has boundaries about killing children; and admit that he does consider civilians and children useful objects to be exploited if he gets what he wants. This man clearly has no boundaries - everyone is a target, now that we've dispensed with your idiotic "conflicted killer" nonsense, we move on to the actual events of Beslan - he ordered the killing.

Tada!

lol and I love the "Russians get a taste of their own medicine" junk - I mean that's why you love Beslan so much. It's delicious! The Russians finally get to watch while their chilren get gunned down, who could resist such a beautiful development?

The rest of us - that's who. Stop defending Beslan, you useless freak.

Ah , now we're entering fantasy land.

Why dont you quote the hostages who said the Chechens didnt fire on them at all , and that all the firing in their direction was coming from the Russian side?
http://www.therevival.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1970

If your gonna quote my post , quote all the relevant bits - not just the bits that support your half-truths.
It was the Russians who killed the children though Chechens were obviously to blame for taking them hostage. That is why Basayev has offered to go on trial. The Chechen side recognise their role in Beslan.

Why don't you quote the children who said the Chechens blew their friends up?

Children of Beslan, HBO Special

So, third time, how is that Basayev trial comming along? Oh yea... It's not.

lol you've got all these excuses but when you line them up against reality we see a whole lot of non sequiters. "He didn't mean to do it!" - but he did it anyway. "He didn't think it would happen" - yet he planned it. "He offered to go on trial!" - yet he didn't.

But in the cracks we find the real Gem: "The Russians got a taste of their own medicine!"

Stop defending Beslan and the man responsible for it.

Dave — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 02:19

VedenoI quite like saying "i suggest". 😃

I suggest you stop your "berating". Makes you sound like a prat.

It's better than killing children

No amount of "lol's" are gonna mask your weak arguements.

Lets look at facts.

Jan 2004 , Basayev agains offers to observe international law if Russia stops killing Chechen children and observes international law.
For the next eight months Russia continues its genocidal policies forcing Bsayev to try a more extreme measure to stop the killing of his people.

These are the facts. He orchestrated and perpetrated this:

http://lordoftheflies.org/img/mosb129.jpg

Hero.

Maskhadov said he and his government would try Basayev once the war was over. The Shariah courts will decide his fate.

How stupid are you? Answer the question what is the present status of Basayev's trial?

I have already said Shamil shares responsibility for what happened which is why he will go on trial.
The rest of that little rant has been answered before - refer to the previous answers.

You don't seem to understand. I'm saying you're a liar. You come up with all these elaborate excuses you can't prove, but at best can be traced back to the rantings of a man who even you admit killed children and you seem to think that justifies what happened - you even go so far as to blaim the victims. You're not "explaning" anything, you're offering reasons why it's other peoples fault or why it wasn't such a bad thing in light of whats happening elsewhere.

Since i only explained what happened in Beslan from the start , im not going back on anything. My point of view on Besla has always been the same.
Yes i will continue to defend Shamil while the pics are up - in fact ill do it again:

That's because you are a pig.

Shamil is a great man! May Allah (swt) bless him and grant him and the Mujahideen of Ichkeria victory. Ameen!
Allahu Akbar!

lol prayers for vanity's sake appear to be the in-thing amongst the Beslan fan club.

Vedeno — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 02:35

ol you're not explaining anything, you're offering an fantasy hero-worship inspired alternate ending.

The facts:

Shamil Basayev planned an attack on a school
Shamil Basayev held children in the school hostage (barbaric)
Shamil Basayev didn't get what he wanted and killed said children (also barbaric)

You're giving us this nonsense about how Shamil didn't intend to do it, felt really bad, didn't really want it to happen for x,y,z reasons but how conflicted could he have possibly been if he ordered them to butcher the children?

You're making bold faced lies to defend the actions of a man who intentionally, coldly and with intention murdered children.

Stop giving us this moral relativist, "morally conflicted killer" nonsense and face the facts, he killed children because he wanted to.

What prevented Shamil from saying "leave the building and do not shoot any children" or better yet "this plan involves killing children, that is morally reprehensible - no" - Nothing. He very clearly wanted this to happen, through careful planning intended it to happen, and in the end brought it to action.

Any unbiased idiot can see that. The problem is you are a biased idiot, you actually don't care if Russian children died as long as they weren't muslim.

And the lies keep coming!

When did the Chechens kill the children. The explosion that happened was when one of the Chechens standing on the pedal was shot by a Russian sniper.
Many were killed by Russian bullets as the hostages themselves say.
Also when the Chechens were told by the Russians that they werent gonna negotiate , they DIDNT blow the place up. They just stayed there and didnt carry out any threat. They waited , expecting some Russian politician would eventually come to his senses and talk to them.
The Russians starting the firefight was not their way to end it.

Ive already answered your bit about muslim and non-muslim children.

Shamil will face trial , thats all there is to it. Thats what happens when you do something wrong. He will have to pay the price.

Thank you for proving everything I've said about you. This is ends justifys the means machiavellianism. You've abandoned that ludicrous argument that he never wanted this to happen because he has boundaries about killing children; and admit that he does consider civilians and children useful objects to be exploited if he gets what he wants. This man clearly has no boundaries - everyone is a target, now that we've dispensed with your idiotic "conflicted killer" nonsense, we move on to the actual events of Beslan - he ordered the killing.

He ordered the hostage-taking , not the killing.
In the hospital seige he didnt blow the place up - instead he saved hundred of thousand of lives.
He expected something similar in Beslan. Ending it in violence would have been the worst scenario for the Chechn side.

lol and I love the "Russians get a taste of their own medicine" junk - I mean that's why you love Beslan so much. It's delicious! The Russians finally get to watch while their chilren get gunned down, who could resist such a beautiful development?

Yeah....quite unhinged arent you? Poor chap.

So, third time, how is that Basayev trial comming along? Oh yea... It's not.

Been answered before.

So, third time, how is that Basayev trial comming along? Oh yea... It's not.

lol you've got all these excuses but when you line them up against reality we see a whole lot of non sequiters. "He didn't mean to do it!" - but he did it anyway. "He didn't think it would happen" - yet he planned it. "He offered to go on trial!" - yet he didn't.

But in the cracks we find the real Gem: "The Russians got a taste of their own medicine!"

All been answered before.

Stop defending Beslan and the man responsible for it.

I havent defended or justified Beslan , i explained why it happened. Get a dictionary and learn the difference.

As for Shamil he made a mistake and owned up to it.

May Allah (swt) grant him and the Mujahideen of Ichkeria victory.Ameen.

You — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 02:48

We need to lose some of the erm... passion in the posts.

And Vedeno, two wrongs do not make a right. If a wrong works once, it does not justify it the second time.

Lets assume that you are just explaining, instead of defending Beslan, then there is still the error that the primary target was NOT the school. It was the secondary target.

And the deaths of the kids are on both sides. Especially with how it was rigged up. Virtually impossible to make it not explode if things went wrong.

At the same time that does not mean the chechen struggle is wrong.

We are all humans, and its not our job to judge people. However we can say when an act is wrong.

Vedeno — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 02:49

These are the facts. He orchestrated and perpetrated this

Already replied to this. Are you just copying and pasting previous posts? :roll:

How stupid are you? Answer the question what is the present status of Basayev's trial?

Not quite yet in your league when it comes to stupidness.
What did you expect Maskhadov to do. As he himself said , they at this moment in time have no official courts , no access to victims or evidence. they dont even have their own country at the moment.
It is impossible to carry out a proper trial in those circumstances.
Even an idiot like you should be able to understand that , no?

You don't seem to understand. I'm saying you're a liar.

You dont seem to understand. Im saying your a prat.

You keep repeating the same old nonsense again and again without actually addressing anything. I said Shamil was responsible as are the Russians who stormed the place.
Shamil has accepted he is going to stand trial for his part in Beslan. What bit dont you understand?

That's because you are a pig.

Lol. Didnt seem to like that did you? Getting a bit worked up aint ya? 😃

Quite funny how someone from a nation that elected Bush calls other people killers...

Vedeno — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 03:01

We need to lose some of the erm... passion in the posts.

Yeah sorry about that Bruv! Ill try to keep the insults to a minimum inshallah. I shouldnt allow myself to get provoked.

And Vedeno, two wrongs do not make a right. If a wrong works once, it does not justify it the second time.

I have never said Beslan was right.
But think about it from a Chechen point of view. If you see that hostage-taking has stopped the genocide of your nation before , theres bound to be someone that tries it again.
That doesnt justify what they did , it does explain why they chose to do it.

And the deaths of the kids are on both sides. Especially with how it was rigged up. Virtually impossible to make it not explode if things went wrong.

Exactly. Chechens rigged it up and Russians stormed it. Thats why Basayev admitted his own responsibility for what happened and why he will stand trial.

We are all humans, and its not our job to judge people. However we can say when an act is wrong.

It was wrong. It was a mistake. I have no problems in saying that.

Everyone makes mistakes.

Lets not forget even the greatest of Muslims like Khalid bin Waleed (ra) made mistakes.
When he killed innocent people , the Prophet ﷺ said "i am free of what Khalid did". He didnt say "i am free of khalid".

Basically He ﷺ distanced himself from the act and not the person. Khalid bin Waleed(ra) still held his position.

Thats how i wold view this. I would distance myself from the act (i will explain what drives people to such actions though) but not the person.

Thats my view on it.

Since me and Karnage are just going around in circles and trading insults, i guesss its my last post in here unless a new point is raised.

Salam

kas — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 09:50

[quote="Don Karnage"]

kas
yeah just like the american and british army does everyday in Afghanistan, Iraq and probably Iran too.

Who would you consider an ethical warrior then? someone who lets the opressor come in kill their people on a mass scale and humiliate them like they have done.

Don't talk about ethical warrior because you are not in his shoe and you have not seen your race almost being wiped out of existence simply for the fact that they follow Islam.

He fought the aggressor, the opressor and the west only wish they have warriors and soldiers like shamil who protect their people from such an evil regime. Without any pay, military equipment and support like the western armies have that are killing innocent civilians on a massive scale in place like Iraq now, Vietnam in the past and probable Iran tommorrow May Allah protect the innocent INSHALLAH.

Thats just youre opinion mine differs i think he's a hero for defending himself and quit calling people names i can do the same too and call you a brainwashed sheep but i wont.

ThePhantomMod — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 - 10:44


This discussion is getting out of hand.

No fesibble arguement is being presented you're both resorting to personal insults.

Taking hostages is Terrorism no matter how you paint it.
Killing innocent civilans is murder no matter what justification you have.

You can not defeat evil by doing evil.

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