Raped Women Are Asking For It

i duno what the cleric originally said but it wouldn't surprise me if the media took it out of context and made a sensational article about it.

No one deserves to be raped whether they're fully dressed or scantily. The crime should lie with the perpetrator alone not the victim.Rape is prob the only crime where the victim is made to feel so guilty and afraid that they refuse to go through the court system to put these scums behind bars.

Having said that i've heard this debate over and over on tv and on the radio and non muslim women are the ones who admit clothing does make a difference. No one is saying coz a woman wears a short skirt and halter neck top she deserves to be raped but she will receive more sexual advances from men as compared with a woman in long loose clothing for example. If dressing differently means a woman would receive less of this sort of attention and "feel safe" then it's in the best interests of women to cover the flesh a bit more. Whether they choose to or not is entirely their choice but that's how i view it. It's just a precautionary measure it may not prevent rape but it can reduce the chances.

As for drinking well i heard this case on radio five of this lady she was drunk and she got raped. She was the one who wished she hadn't drank so heavily. She was the one who said she wished she hadn't dressed so scantily either. She knew the guy was to blame but she couldn't help but feel partly responsible for allowing herself to be so drunk that she couldn't prevent the attack. She was on radio urging other women on the dangers of drinking heavily and dressing too skimpy. This was a non muslim woman. Of course lots of other women rang in condemning her for giving this advice but i can't see why.

In saudi if you show your ankle you're considered a "slag" you sure you're not exaggerating a tad bit?

i don't think some of them do because it's a :? subject to talk about. i know it is with my family.

Tex I can understand that your father told you to control yourself but how did he teach you to control yourself?

TEXhow is it more likly to occur?

can u statistically prove that "only slags get raped"

the muslim world is proof that dress code makes no difference

and the men stare at women MORE in muslim countries :shock:

"men stare at women MORE in muslim countries"

if the men in the muslim countries stare at women, that shows that they have no knowledge of how to use thier eyes in a halaal way... if they did they should know that they should lower thier gaze

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allâh is All-Aware of what they do. (24:30)

....but then again, who am i to judge... The judging is only down to Allah (swt)

WaddyHussainTex I can understand that your father told you to control yourself but how did he teach you to control yourself?

lol

WaddyHussainTex I can understand that your father told you to control yourself but how did he teach you to control yourself?

I don't know if that's a serious question or not but I will answer it because it is interesting and potentially important. I don't speak from an Islamic perspective especially. Just as a human being.

If you know what pain and trauma feel like, or if you know what it looks like, promise never to inflict it unless in the cause of defense of a life or someone's wellbeing, and then only if force is the urgent imperative.

There are many ways of training oneself in restraint. One answer, because this issue of sexual assault is a matter of not doing something rather than doing something, any time there is an issue about a behaviour you need to retract, you have to find people with whom to be open about it, make your promises and count the days until the unacceptability of that behaviour is so embedded it is no longer a matter requiring restraint. Keep your confidants informed. That is also a way of taking a regular behaviour on, but there are quicker ways of acquiring good habits.

If you have hurt someone you must do your utmost to acknowledge wrongdoing and make amends. Even if an attempt to do so is poorly received the experience of showing remorse rather than keeping it in allows you to grow and move on and do good deeds, and it also leaves the victim with a truthful understanding of what happened.

sponi all idiots know that staring at women is wrong in islam, but they dont care

Yash i aint exagerating, no woman is safe in saudi :? it makes no difference what u where there,

dress code makes no difference, it is a common misconception that it is, just look at the muslim world and u wud know that it dont make any difference, but only makes things worse.

Zara it is the most humiliating subject in the whole wide world but it needs to be discussed, nothing is more humiliating then rape,

Waddy when my dad had a discussion with me about "growing up" he discussed it then. First he started banging on about the high number of rape cases in saudi, he described how he would cut me up and kill me if i ever raped anyone :shock: (i think he got the description from a scary movie) , then he got LOADS of ahadith and in detail described the punishment in hell for the rapist, then he gave me tips on how to handle "my desires" (i.e. to fast more often, keep my self busy, have the hearafter in mind, etc), he gave me these books and videos showing the effect rape has on a victim and how it affects her life - they were an eye opener i knew it was bad but not THAT BAD :shock: , then he asked me how i wud feel if sum1 raped a female in my family, then asked me if i wanted to put sum innocent girls family thru that.... he kept trying to ingrain `guilt` into me

It was so humiliating :oops: :oops:

but what he said will go with me to my grave, he had such a powerful effect on me!!

now i wud never rape any1 anywayz so i didn't need the embarresing lectures :oops: :oops: , but SO MANY guys do :?

and dont be fooled he is a terible dad :evil: :evil:

and guys if u give ur sons lessons on self-control

1. do not make them feel guilty for no reason,
2. dont be aggresive
3. be polite
4. dont make the subject anymore embarresing then it is
5. dont treat ur son like a potentiol rapist :evil:
6. try not to be scary

Nice one Tex. Your not as bad as they make you out. 😂 May Allah (swt) bless you with Wisdom and keep you on the straight path. Ameen

i also forgot to mention:

7. Do not grill your son alive,

tiz not nice, :evil:

I'm sure that among the charedim ("ultra-Orthodox") there is some tolerance for the argument that immodest women are asking for it, but there is no tolerance for a rapist in those communities or in Jewish religious law, which categorically supports the victim. I hope that is a fair answer.

how many Jews are charedim ? are there a lot ?

WaddyHussainTex what do you mean by "Immune to flesh" I don't get it or did I miss something?

sorry i missed this post

when you look at naked / half naked women without acting like a beast - without feeling u cant control ur self

i.e. if i eat less chocolate i will only crave it more which would not happen if i had enuff of it, ya know what i mean? :twisted:

PS chocolate in wrapper will not make the choclate any less tempting

TEX

I'm sure that among the charedim ("ultra-Orthodox") there is some tolerance for the argument that immodest women are asking for it, but there is no tolerance for a rapist in those communities or in Jewish religious law, which categorically supports the victim. I hope that is a fair answer.

how many Jews are charedim ? are there a lot ?

In Israel they are 4.5% of the population and 30% of the Orthodox Jews who identify themselves as religious. They are mostly lovely people fond of study and good deeds, and ranging from the stoney faced to the incredibly joyous, but as in any very strict community they try to deal with things "in house" and can resist bringing shame upon themselves, resulting in distorted justice.

NB I have only had wonderful times in the company of charedim.

man this is a hot topic :!:

its only been a few days and its 5 pages already!

im totally disgusted with ppl's backwards views on this subject - u shud be ashamed of ur selves

100 how would u define modesty (for men and women) in Judaism?

TEXman this is a hot topic :!:

its only been a few days and its 5 pages already!

im totally disgusted with ppl's backwards views on this subject - u shud be ashamed of ur selves

100 how would u define modesty (for men and women) in Judaism?

tex tex tex!!!! my views are not backwards!!

TheRevivalEditor

TEXmy whole life i have been surrounded by so-called muslims with such backward views,

its driving me crazy!

i swear this stupid subject will make me schizophrenic !!

oh shut up pls
you're doing everypnes head in
have a proper, sensible discussion then probably someone will take you serious.
you just rant on... i know thats what kids do...but pls... give it a break!

actually he only seems to be doing YOUR head in Ed, everyone else gets on fine with judda. whats with the animosity? people don't tell you to shut up when you're having a rant. :roll:

TEXwhy are rape cases MUCH MUCH higher in muslim countries??

you've been going on about this judda... got the statistics to prove it?

khanif i see a hoe with a mini skirt, with most of her clevage sticking out.. if its a nice sight, I become attracted to her..

khan you make me sick. you could have atleast kept your dirty thoughts to yourself, no need to confess on a public (that too, islamic) forum. judda that applies to you too.
and khan you should be ashamed of yourself, how dare you refer to a woman like that^, makes you sound like a sexist.

:evil:

TEX100 how would u define modesty (for men and women) in Judaism?

Jewish religious women are expected to cover their elbows and knees and to wear something up to the neck. The strictest rulings include covering ankles, having a high neckline and avoiding a tight fit. Married women must cover their hair with a hat, headscarf or a modest wig called a sheitl. I have known fairly religious women to wear an attractive wig and wondered if they are missing the point, but those same women might also tend to be a bit liberal about skirts and sleeves. (I don't have a problem with that, just I find it a bit inconsistent.) Many of the "modern orthodox" (not charedi) ladies I know have been known to dress quite attractively. More here. The male dress code is a lot less specific. The laws of tzniut expect a man to behave in a modest manner also and to dress smartly. Additionally men must wear tzitzit, but that is not an issue of modesty.

On the topic under more general discussion I can find a good woman attractive regardless of whether she is demure or outgoing, but I think if one is opting for a virtuous life one is bound to be attracted to modesty, although not a policy of total secrecy or ugliness. In any case I don't consider that a purely sexual attraction.

I doubt rapists have a consistent preference except those bigots who believe "immodesty" is an excuse to be nasty and vile.

Showkat's contribution is here. It is mostly evasive. Ed has locked the thread because the subject is under discussion here.

Showkat,

Your link had a space in it. Having established that I did manage to view it, although it is a link to an article with an inaccurate headline. Here is the breakdown given in the link:

According to the poll, 34% of those asked thought a woman was "partially" or "totally" responsible for being raped if she behaved in a "flirtatious manner".

More than a quarter also thought a woman was "at least partly responsible" for being raped if she wore sexy or revealing clothing, or was drunk.

One in five thinks a woman is partly to blame if it is known she has many sexual partners, while more than a third believe she is responsible to some degree if she has clearly failed to say "no" to the man.

A breakdown in the figures showed that more women (5%) than men (3%) thought a woman was "totally responsible" for being raped if she was intoxicated.

ShowkatA British poll, described as "shocking" by equal-rights campaigners, has found that more than a third of people believe women are to blame for being raped if they behave flirtatiously, wear sexy clothes or get drunk.

Spot the difference?

Showkat
And for Non-Muslims who are open minded and do not believe what their leaders and media say about Islam and Muslims the time is long overdue to research what Islam is and to discuss with your Muslim neighbours, work colleagues or to visit Muslim places of worship and find out for yourself what Islam is.

Nice angle. I bet no one has tried that.

What the Imam said:

But in the event of adultery, the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time with women. Why? Because the woman possesses the weapon of seduction. She is the one who takes her clothes off, cuts them short, acts flirtatious, puts on make-up and powder, and goes on the streets dallying. She is the one wearing a short dress, lifting it up, lowering it down, then a look, then a smile, then a word, then a greeting, then a chat, then a date, then a meeting, then a crime, then Long Bay Jail, then comes a merciless judge who gives you 65years.

But the whole disaster, who started it? The Al-Rafihi scholar says in one of his literary works, he says: If I come across a crime of rape - kidnap and violation of honour - I would discipline the man and teach him a lesson in morals, and I would order the woman be arrested and jailed for life.

Why, Rafihi? He says, because if she hadn't left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn't have snatched it. If you take a kilo of meat, and you don't put it in the fridge, or in the pot, or in the kitchen, but you put in on a plate and placed it outside in the yard. Then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats ate the meat. Then (inaudible). Right or not?

If one puts uncovered meat out in the street, or on the footpath, or in the garden, or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, then the cats come and eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem! If it was covered the cat wouldn't have. It would have circled around it and circled around it, then given up and gone.

If she was in her room, in her house, wearing her hijab, being chaste, the disasters wouldn't have happened. The woman possesses the weapon of seduction and temptation. That's why Satan says about the woman, "You are half a soldier. You are my messenger to achieve my needs. You are the last weapon I would use to smash the head of the finest of men. There are a few men that I use a lot of things with, but they never heed me. But you? Oh, you are my best weapon."

ShowkatAre the Australian cleric’s comments about women really offensive in this day and age?

No one over the last few years or so would have failed to notice that Islam has been a constant topic in the media and therefore a source of discussion among Muslims and especially non-Muslims. Most of the coverage has been negative and created many stereotypes about Islam and Muslims.

The recent comments in Australia by an Islamic cleric to his Jummah congregation have caused more outrage and media hysteria. How dare he say that women who go out provocatively dressed contribute to sexual harassment and rape. Also he compared women to meat being left exposed for animals to attack with gusto and relish.

This type of language when translated from Arabic to English comes across as being very crude and has upset a lot of Australians especially women, in particular those who like to sunbath with a G-string and a bikini on.

Australia is known as a country where the outdoor lifestyle is very liberal to say the least. One of its favourite past times in sunbathing and there are many beaches where people go completely nude, well almost nude. People in Britain became aware of Australia via Neighbours and Home and Away and they do seem to be a very tolerant bunch of chilled out people.

Recently the Cronulla riots took place between native Australian youths who wanted to re-claim their beaches back from the Lebanese Muslims, who they derogatively refer to as Lebs. It’s understandable to see how white Australians feel threatened by recent immigrants especially the Muslim variety. The women wear Hijab, jilbab and Nikab, the men wear foreign garbs even in the heat, have beards and refuse to wear shorts. Also unlike other immigrant communities who have embraced Australian values and have no problems fitting in, the Muslims have remained aloof and distant. Many Muslim youths born in Australia have embraced and are following a more fundamentalist version of Islam than their parents, who followed a mixture of culture and Islam.

It’s quite ironic that White Australians feel this way about Muslims I suppose when their ancestors first landed the aborigines must have felt something similar. Of course the aborigines being civilised and tolerant didn’t ask the immigrants to integrate and adopt the dress code and values of the host society nor did they attack them or call them racist names. Over time we see that it is the aborigines who have been converted into thinking and behaving like the immigrants of 250 years ago. So why then does Australia have a problem with Muslims and Islamic values? Maybe Islamic values can help to re-shape and create a better society for all. After all Islam does have a track record of creating harmony between different faiths and people of many races.

Why not engage in dialogue and discussion with Muslims and see what Islam has to offer Australian society. Maybe Islamic values can help to reduce societal problems like binge drinking, sexual diseases, rape, abortion, racism, unemployment. After all the most populous Muslim country in the world is Indonesia where Muslim traders landed and conveyed the Islamic message which led to millions converting to Islam.

According to recent articles Islam is gaining converts in Australia and is the fastest growing faith at the moment with over 100 mosques and a 90% increase in terms of the number of Muslims in the last decade.

Now to those controversial comments which has upset many people. Anyone who lives in the west is accustomed to seeing pornographic magazines on the top shelves of most newsagents. Soft porn can be seen daily in newspapers, TV, internet, advertising, music videos and films. Also women walk around wearing revealing clothes during the summer. Plus the many comedians who tell sexist jokes some of whom are very crude and demeaning to women. We have all seen and heard such things that we have now become immune and fail to see them as being offensive to women.

Not many people and especially those women who are now incensed complain about women being used as sex objects to promote and sell products, in fact being a page 3 girl or model is considered to be a glamorous career with hundreds of young anorexic women eager to flaunt their bodies. Yet these same women find it offensive when a Muslim cleric makes comments which are very tame in comparison to what is portrayed and said about women in the western media and popular culture.

If we think about it I’m sure we have heard them before in the UK. Not from preachers of hate imported from abroad or radical Muslim groups who Mr Blair wants to proscribe but from respectable people in high office and the general public.

A British poll, described as "shocking" by equal-rights campaigners, has found that more than a third of people believe women are to blame for being raped if they behave flirtatiously, wear sexy clothes or get drunk.

The IMC survey, commissioned by Amnesty International

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&ad…

Note the above survey interviewed women as well as men for the sake of fairness.

This amounts to about 20 million people in Britain. In this context the cleric’s views seem to be mainstream in Britain and not extreme. Also the comments made by the Australian PM Mr Howard and others should be aimed at the pommies also. But would he dare to attack the Brits? No he’s happy to pass the buck to Shane Warne and other Australian fast bowlers. Just goes to show how bigoted and insincere he is.

So why then is the media picking up on every quote, speech and action of Muslims?

Ever since George Bush launched his war on terror after 9/11 against the terrorists many people have started to now ask questions.

Why are the Christian terrorists who bomb abortion clinics spared?

Why are the Israeli terrorists who kill innocent women and children armed and supported by America?

What about the Hindu terrorists in India who destroy Muslim places of worship and kill innocents?

The Buddhist suicide bombers in Sri Lanka have claimed the deaths of 2 Prime Ministers something which the so called “Muslim suicide bombers” have been unable to match let alone surpass.

And of course the Secular terrorists like Bush and Blair are not engaged in terrorism at all, although over 500 000 plus have died more than under Saddam’s tyranny.

It’s apparent to everyone that the war on terror is not against terrorists at all, but against those people who represent a threat and have an alternative way of life to Capitalism. It’s a convenient excuse to label them as being terrorists and then invade their countries and bomb them back to the Stone Age. Mr Bush openly talks about Muslims who want to establish the Caliphate from Morocco to Indonesia, who have an evil ideology and this war will continue for decades.

Obviously the western public need to support this crusade by sending their sons, paying taxes and verbal support. Also they need to be shown constantly that this enemy is everywhere and poised to attack physically and rhetorically. This is where Sheik Taj Din al-Hilal and his comments come in, more fuel to the fire to justify the war on Islam even though as I have mentioned above many other people hold similar opinions, 20 million of them in the UK in fact.

Also if the media wants controversial and offensive comments there is a plethora of people willing to make them. From Christian cultists to Right wing extremists, but then why give them the oxygen of publicity and create societal disharmony. It’s better to focus on the Muslims and continue to gain support for the war against Islam as an ideology and system for life.

As long as the war on terror continues Muslims all over the world will come under close scrutiny and everything we say and do will be misinterpreted and used to defame Islam and our communities. It is important in this current climate that we hold firmly onto Islam and trust in Allah swt only and engage in discussions with non-Muslims using the best words and explain our belief and rules in a calm and rational manner.

And for Non-Muslims who are open minded and do not believe what their leaders and media say about Islam and Muslims the time is long overdue to research what Islam is and to discuss with your Muslim neighbours, work colleagues or to visit Muslim places of worship and find out for yourself what Islam is.

Showkat Ali

Showkotali@hotmail.com

Please feel free to publish, post and circulate widely, Also I welcome your comments and criticisms and feedaback.

www.Islamic-education.blogspot.com

Gotta say thats a very well written piece Showkat, mashAllah.

Showkats cliams that women that where less are more likly to get raped can be easily refuted:

In the USA women where less and less every year but rape cases are declining!

The number of rape cases in the United States has declined by 85 percent since the 1970s, according to statistics released by the Justice Department, the Washington Post reported June 19. In 1979, 2.8 rapes occurred for every 1,000 people. In 2004, the rate had decreased to 0.4 rapes per 1,000 people.

The data is drawn from statistics collected by police departments as well as a national crime victims' survey that is meant to track crimes not reported to officials. Because the declines have been consistent through the years, some organizations, such as the Washington-based Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network, are seeing the drop as a byproduct of increased public awareness and prevention efforts as well as broader crime trends.

Besides if women where less are they really more attractive?

GIRLS: do you beleive that if a women where less and less she will magically look better?

of course u bloody dont so why do you expect guys to think like that?

i bet there is not one guy in this forum that has not been attracted to a hijabi

are lap dancers, pole dancers, strippers, and female porn stars more likly to get raped then the avarage woman? do you beleive that women will go into a proffession where they know that they are more likly to get raped? There is no evidence to support the claim that lap dancers, pole dancers, strippers, and female porn stars are raped more often then the avarge woman.

IMO the strict islamic dress code is suppose to indicate "i`m not interested" it does very little, if anyting to protect the woman.

Not being immuned to naked flesh creates perverts, there eyes only pop out MORE at women. From my experience and other ppl's experice, men in muslim countries LOOK MORE AND LONGER at women.

Anyways the headcovering creates no barrier for rape or zina.

"But TEX the headscarf is ugly so the woman is suppose to look ugly too"

A women covering her hair with a headscarf, bandana, hat, or those things many jewish women where (i dont know what they are called), is irrelevent. Most hats and bandanas are ugly too. But will the girls who where them look ugly too? no ofcourse not, sum will look terible without it!

And you can get elegent jilbabs everywhere, does a woman who chooses to where a stylish jilbab as opposed to an ugly one `asking to be raped`?

In Islam rape is worse then murder.

When you murder sum1 u end thier life, when u rape a girl u utterly destroy her life to a point she does not want to exist.

Why don't muslims treat rape worse then murder?

If sum1 killed my sister ppl will be sympathetic to my family and hate the murderer. But if my sister was raped ppl would blame my sister and sum sick muslims will have sympathy for the rapist because "it would not be his foult he was tempted".

She dresses modestly according the place she is in i.e. in saudi she
wheres niqab, in England where jeans and a top, in a beach wheres a mini skirt and a halter neck top (while other girls there where bikinis or walk round topless i consider that to be modest considering the place she is in), at work she wears a ankle length skirt and a blouse.... a swimming costume when swimming (only women allowed there tho),you get the gist....

in all those situations she is not dressed "indecently", if she is, indecent to who's standerds? your standerds? ur cultures standerds?

Islamically she would be wrong in all those situations with saudi being an exception, and in a womens only pool i think islamically she would be allowed to where a swimming costume- however correct me if i am wrong on that.

Is she asking to be raped? is she more likely to be raped?

Is a kafir western lass whearing skin tight jeans and top immodest? to who's standerds?

do you beleive that Jessica Simpson is modest? she claims she is and she say's that she likes to leave something for the imagination, after looking at her i have no imgination left! 😛

normal men do NOT rape, abnormal men do.

Any body that claims that men who rape are normal shud be shot dead.

Can we univerally agree on what is modest?

in the amazon rain forest a man covering his bits is modesty.

Are naked tribal women raped more? ofcourse they bloody aint!

What i hate about these erenous claims that what u where matters is that it blames the lady.

Can you prove a lap dancer, pole dancer, female stripper, female porn star is ANY safer then a women covered top to toe in saudi?

To claim that what you where matters is just as "logical" as beleiving the earth is flat!

infact one of the cheif imams in saudi said that the earth is flat and that any body who disagrees is an infidel!

i dont belive that earth is flat, so that makes me a kafir innit?

WRONG!

claiming what u where matters is just as stupid

its backwards

Rape cases are so bloody high in the muslim world where women are covered from top to toe. Normal men dont rape, abnormal ones do, they will NOT CARE about what u look like.

my sisters always put tonnes of make-up, jewelry, "pretty" clothes on my 6 year old little sister. They always try out new hair styles on her. i HATE it when they put hot pants, mini-skirts and outragous tops on her. It makes her look like every pedophiles dream date :!: :x :x . My parents dont mind how they dress her up coz she is young yet. There are loads of convicted pedophiles everywhere, how do u know ur childs teacher is not?

Whenever i tell them not to dress her like that they start calling me a "wierdo", but i am not being wierd i am just concerned.

where do we draw the line?

a pedophile is just as abnormal as a rapist.

Besides in Muslims countries all the pressure is on the women, where is the pressure on men?

men are occasionally told to subdue there eyes, but they dont, can anyone honestly say that men in muslim countries stare less?

are they told off for staring at women?

and what about women who choose to where a bit less?

whats with the double standerds?

And why do most women and men but all the pressure on women?

Why is a woman told to be ashamed of her self for whearing less?? why not a guy for staring?

Men rape, women dont, so why the pressure on women and not men? which sex is capable of committing the crime?

In the muslim world men are brought up to believe that they cannot control themselves, and that is the problem.

There something wrong with u if u continually point ur finger at women, and i am not even gonna begin to describe the punishment in hell for sexist people!! tiz bad :shock:

the ironic thing is it is women looking down at women, and they think they know what men think! this is preposterous

PS i am sorry for the innapropriate stuff me and khan sed

PPS sorry for the long post

PPPS apart from me how many guys have been told off for staring at women?

ws

ppl grossly over estimate the effect of clothes

and grossly underestimate the effect of curiosity

why do men in muslim countries look at girls stare more and for longer?

it cant be because of the way they are dressed!

its because they are curious to see what is underneath :twisted:

there is no other explantion for it

the strict dress code does NOT protect women, paradoxly it has created more perverts,

can we reverse this problem?

now the damage is done we can`t

the eyes may be the window to the heart but curiosity is the CURSE of the human brain :twisted:

Married women must cover their hair with a hat, headscarf or a modest wig called a sheitl

100 i heard yossef prohibited sephardi`s to where wigs?

what % of the jews in israel are Ashkenazi??

Some Sephardim argue from a post-Talmudic machloket (difference of opinion) against wearing a sheitl although I know a number who do wear sheitls. There are other types of head covering. Sheitls have only been around for a few hundred years. Many rabbis deemed they were an acceptable form of head covering. Both lines of reasoning seem sensible to me.

In the diaspora Jews who travelled in different directions following conquest of ancient Israel held to different minhagim (customs and interpretations of law). Descendents of Jews who moved through Italy and into Europe and Russia are called Ashkenazim, Jews who moved through Africa and Spain are called Sephardim. Some theories, widely contested, point to the conversion of the Khazars as an explanation for the preponderance of Ashkenazim, and the numbers of Sephardim were decimated by various conquests of the Middle East, the Spanish Inquisition and the subsequent conversions and expulsions from Portugal. I would need to be a lot more educated on Jewish demographics to provide much more than this by way of explanation and it is quite speculative. Additionally many who settled in the Middle East are called Mizrachi (Persian) and Temani (Yemeni and Omani) and the Jews of India, China and Africa are often called Bene Yisrael, Kaifeng Jews and Beta Yisrael respectively. Georgia's quite ancient Jewish community is Gruzini. The majority of Jews worldwide today (over 60%) are Ashkenazim and another 20% are Sephardim, primarily of North African, Spanish, Portugese and South American origin. (More here.) Mostly the only key distinctions are in the prayer services and some customs eg at Passover Sephardim consider rice an acceptable grain whereas Ashkenazim abstain throughout the holiday. Ashkenazim and Sephardim intermingle very freely. (More here. Including some things I had never noticed about specific ethnicities in Israel. And this is quite interesting.) Just now I couldn't find clear statistics so I will guess and infer that perhaps some 45-55% of Israeli Jews are Ashkenazi and some 30-40% are Sephardi (including some who have abandoned a more specific identity mentioned above). One more link. I have tried.

(I have listed all your old questions and will begin posting answers through the week. They may be easier than I imagined. I have indeed been putting it off. :oops: Once I have done that I hope there are no arguments and that my answers will be quietly accepted or rejected and that anyone eager for clarification or with more questions will PM me for the most part. That is because I am disappointed with myself for taking so long and also because we have no real animosity and the Q&As might not reflect that. Also these conversations can last forever and I would like at some point to wean myself off the forum except maybe for the occasional comment or article.)

B'shalom

Sorry for posting a long off-topic comment.

(TEX,

btw Yossef written on its own like that would generally refer to the son of Yisrael (also called Yaakov) in the Torah. This was long before the Talmud and the diaspora so maybe it is a specific Rav Yossef you are referring to.)

thank you brother 😃

TEXthank you brother :D

Pleasure bro. 😃

*DUST*

TEXwhy are rape cases MUCH MUCH higher in muslim countries??

you've been going on about this judda... got the statistics to prove it?

i got statistics from mid-eastern newspapers

and one of ma cousins magazines

remember the statistics only show those that were reported :?

and theres the small amount of women in the west that falsly accuse men :?

fat chance of being falsely accused in the muslim world!

khanFirst I've heard of this Shaykh.. who what where when did he appear from.

Yep his words were Harsh.. I've heard people say far worse things and havent had a fraction of the media attention this guy has had..

Its a stupid story, Omrows quotes and the ones in the media have been blown out of proportion and context in my opinion.]

Where do you want it from? It happened in australia but he is an egyptian sheik named Hilal and this isn't the first time he has caused trouble. He has been asked to resign but he refuses to. Muslim women upset about it as well as non muslims and I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being deported.