H.T. and other loony toons...

yuitI agree with Khan. I found some of the views so far very pathetic.

razor

Please read the following page .... The 1st account duznt tell u much, but the 2nd is very informative and 3 n 4 r ok.

http://www.inside-ht.com/ht_articles/why_I_left.htm

Especially this one, after all that was said, you still went to a anti HT website for your views, what that all about. It like a non muslims going to answering islam or faith freedom to discover about islam. :roll:

razorFor example, HT make up there own aqeedah, which i confirmed yesterday, i rang amember to ask him a few questions, and he told me that he, along with other HT people do not beleive in punishment of the grave, and are extremely anti-sufi. Yet, he said he was a hanafi by madhab.

No you find that it was the view of their founder, the group has evolve alot over time, The group that i first saw 10-15 years ago to the one exist now is nowhere near the same. At present IMO it mostly a political group with interest in the general muslim community. I never to this day had a HT member preach to me on Aqueedah issues. So why this issue is always brought up i don't know. Anti Sufi first time i heard that, i agree none of their member are sufi, but anti that new to me. Hanafi is broad statement, Deobandi are Hanafi so r Brelwi, but at time they seem like they share little in common.

I won't even bother with some of the other stuff that was raised, as i wouldn't want to waste my time, even though i suspect i already have, as people are of a mindset already. This thread remind me of the one Med started on Minhaj, it seem some people are happy to give it but can't handle it when it on the other foot, omrow been given a free reign on Wahabi and Salafi as well. I say believe what you want, but remember a day will come when as muslims we will have to account for everything. Anyway like Dust i will leave this thread now so enjoy.

wasalaam

yeah , give your fatwa then run away....

i dont get the mentality here...

all i have said is that i have the right to criticise, as long as it constructive.....

i havent meant to insult anyone.... my apologies to Dust... yes she is a very learnerd member on this forum

to Yuit, dont i have a right to disagree with HT, everyone has a right to agree or disagree with any group...as long as it is with respect...

ppl praise HT when they dont really know their deep views on certain issues... i spent three years with them... i know the issues relating to them

yes they do good work, get youth off the streets, their spokesman for media is very good.... i praise them for that
and like every group..they have points you can disagree with...

but when i disagree with them... everyone gets upset...

unity is not to agree with everyone, unity is that you disagree but still work together... i have no problem working with them on common issues...

TheRevivalEditor
yeah , give your fatwa then run away....

i dont get the mentality here...

all i have said is that i have the right to criticise, as long as it constructive.....

.

Who running away and why is it when someone has a opinion that goes against you it suddenly someone posting FATWAS are you that insecure. I personally just fed up, when i joined this forum 2 years ago i remember the Ex HT thread was up and two years on, we still hearing the outdated agruments again. I already said that i don't have a problem with constructive critism, note what i said on Beast post. But if you think the post on amphetamines is constructive criticism, fair enough :roll: . Plus you first post was a attempt to ridicule my defense of HT, by saying some of the following.

TheRevivalEditorYUIIT are there to defend the Muslims again..bless....how sweet.

Yuit say...' they're good'.. 'we should support them'.

'Defending Duo'....

Now, my problem is not with people having constructive criticism of HT or any muslims it about people working on hearsay, now in the past when certain member did it, everyone was quick to realise it, why the indifference now for.

Concealing the Faults and Weaknesses of Others

abridged from "Freedom of Expression in Islam" by Kamali

Avoiding harm to others and concealing the weakness of one's fellow human beings is a prominent theme of the moral teachings of the Quran and the Sunnah. The message here is conveyed in a variety of forms, context and ideas, all of which are indicative of Islam's emphasis on the honour and dignity of the individual, and of his or her right to privacy safe from the encroachment of others.

Thus according to a hadith:

"If a person conceals the weakness of another in this world, Allah will conceal their weakness in the hereafter" [Al Nawawi, Riyad al Salihin p 135, Hadith no 245; al Ghazali, Kitab Adab p 344]

A variant version of the same message is reported in another hadith, which states:

"Whoever protects the honour of his brother, will have Allah protect his countenance from the fire on the Day of Judgement" [Al Nawawi, Riyad al Salihin p 488, Hadith no 1530]

In yet another hadith we read:

"Do not harm Muslims, and do not revile them, nor pursue their imperfections. For verily, whosoever pursues the imperfections of his brother shall have his own imperfections pursued by Allah" [Sunan of al Tirmidhi, as quoted in Principles of State and Government in Islam, p 85]

Concealing the faults of, and respecting the privacy of others is again the theme of the following hadith:

"The Muslim who helps another when the latter's honour and dignity are under attack, shall be helped by Allah, Glorious and Sublime is He! - at a time when he would wish for Allah's help. But he who forsakes a Muslim whose dignity is under attack, shall have Allah forsake him at a time when he would wish for Allah's help" [Al Ghazali, Ihyaa Ulum al Din; Kitab Adab al Suhbah p 369]

Exposing the faults of others by casting aspersions, or spying on them, is particularly reprehensible. Thus according to a hadith, people are warned:

"Beware of suspicion. For suspicion is the most untrue form of speech; and do not spy upon one another and do not revile one another." [Sahih Muslim, Kitab al birr wal silah, Bab al nahy an al tajasus]

Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal was once asked about the correct meaning of the following hadith:

"When you hear something form or about your brother, ascribe to it the best interpretation until you can no longer do so"

To this, he replied:

"Find an excuse for him by saying, 'Maybe he said this, or maybe he meant such and such'"

It is further reported in another hadith:

"Whoever is offered an apology from a fellow Muslim should accept it unless he knows that the person apologising is being dishonest" [Mishkat al Tabrizi, Vol III Hadith no 5052]

Commenting on these hadiths, Tuffah has rightly observed that, despite the occurrence of the word brother (akh) therein, they are of general import, and their scope is not confined to Muslims, the reason being that in Islam justice and benevolence (adl wa ihsan) are not confined to Muslims alone. The question of the way people treat fellow citizens in society, their brothers and sisters in humanity, is closely linked with the Quranic concepts of adl and ihsan, and these do not admit if any restriction that would compromise their objective application. [Tuffah, Masadir pp 89-90]

This indeed is the main point of the following Quranic text:

"And let not the hatred of a people harm you into being unjust. Be just, for it is closet to piety (taqwa)" [Surah 5: verse 8]

Furthermore, Hasan, the son of Ali is reported to have said:

"If a man abuses me in one ear and then apologises to me in the other, I shall accept his apology" [Al Maqdisi, al Adab, I p 341]

Thus it is evident that silence takes priority over speech when it comes to exposing the faults and weaknesses of others.

'One should not talk about the defects of others even if one is asked about them. One must try to avoid prying and asking personal questions about the private lives of others" [Al Ghazali, Kitab Adab pp 242-43]

For tolerance and forgiveness are necessary in order to encourage an atmosphere of fraternity in the community.

yuot got a point

mr ed, you havnt argued anythin - more of a resort to personal attacks on Yuit and Dust, which very unfair

and Razor - back ur claims up please, not jus what u heard and what u haerd

and lay off Minhaj - nowt to do with this

and yes im still anti-HT

yuit

TheRevivalEditor
yeah , give your fatwa then run away....

i dont get the mentality here...

all i have said is that i have the right to criticise, as long as it constructive.....

.

Who running away and why is it when someone has a opinion that goes against you it suddenly someone posting FATWAS are you that insecure. I personally just fed up, when i joined this forum 2 years ago i remember the Ex HT thread was up and two years on, we still hearing the outdated agruments again. I already said that i don't have a problem with constructive critism, note what i said on Beast post. But if you think the post on amphetamines is constructive criticism, fair enough :roll: . Plus you first post was a attempt to ridicule my defense of HT, by saying some of the following.

TheRevivalEditorYUIIT are there to defend the Muslims again..bless....how sweet.

Yuit say...' they're good'.. 'we should support them'.

'Defending Duo'....

Now, my problem is not with people having constructive criticism of HT or any muslims it about people working on hearsay, now in the past when certain member did it, everyone was quick to realise it, why the indifference now for.

Concealing the Faults and Weaknesses of Others

abridged from "Freedom of Expression in Islam" by Kamali

Avoiding harm to others and concealing the weakness of one's fellow human beings is a prominent theme of the moral teachings of the Quran and the Sunnah. The message here is conveyed in a variety of forms, context and ideas, all of which are indicative of Islam's emphasis on the honour and dignity of the individual, and of his or her right to privacy safe from the encroachment of others.

Thus according to a hadith:

"If a person conceals the weakness of another in this world, Allah will conceal their weakness in the hereafter" [Al Nawawi, Riyad al Salihin p 135, Hadith no 245; al Ghazali, Kitab Adab p 344]

A variant version of the same message is reported in another hadith, which states:

"Whoever protects the honour of his brother, will have Allah protect his countenance from the fire on the Day of Judgement" [Al Nawawi, Riyad al Salihin p 488, Hadith no 1530]

In yet another hadith we read:

"Do not harm Muslims, and do not revile them, nor pursue their imperfections. For verily, whosoever pursues the imperfections of his brother shall have his own imperfections pursued by Allah" [Sunan of al Tirmidhi, as quoted in Principles of State and Government in Islam, p 85]

Concealing the faults of, and respecting the privacy of others is again the theme of the following hadith:

"The Muslim who helps another when the latter's honour and dignity are under attack, shall be helped by Allah, Glorious and Sublime is He! - at a time when he would wish for Allah's help. But he who forsakes a Muslim whose dignity is under attack, shall have Allah forsake him at a time when he would wish for Allah's help" [Al Ghazali, Ihyaa Ulum al Din; Kitab Adab al Suhbah p 369]

Exposing the faults of others by casting aspersions, or spying on them, is particularly reprehensible. Thus according to a hadith, people are warned:

"Beware of suspicion. For suspicion is the most untrue form of speech; and do not spy upon one another and do not revile one another." [Sahih Muslim, Kitab al birr wal silah, Bab al nahy an al tajasus]

Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal was once asked about the correct meaning of the following hadith:

"When you hear something form or about your brother, ascribe to it the best interpretation until you can no longer do so"

To this, he replied:

"Find an excuse for him by saying, 'Maybe he said this, or maybe he meant such and such'"

It is further reported in another hadith:

"Whoever is offered an apology from a fellow Muslim should accept it unless he knows that the person apologising is being dishonest" [Mishkat al Tabrizi, Vol III Hadith no 5052]

Commenting on these hadiths, Tuffah has rightly observed that, despite the occurrence of the word brother (akh) therein, they are of general import, and their scope is not confined to Muslims, the reason being that in Islam justice and benevolence (adl wa ihsan) are not confined to Muslims alone. The question of the way people treat fellow citizens in society, their brothers and sisters in humanity, is closely linked with the Quranic concepts of adl and ihsan, and these do not admit if any restriction that would compromise their objective application. [Tuffah, Masadir pp 89-90]

This indeed is the main point of the following Quranic text:

"And let not the hatred of a people harm you into being unjust. Be just, for it is closet to piety (taqwa)" [Surah 5: verse 8]

Furthermore, Hasan, the son of Ali is reported to have said:

"If a man abuses me in one ear and then apologises to me in the other, I shall accept his apology" [Al Maqdisi, al Adab, I p 341]

Thus it is evident that silence takes priority over speech when it comes to exposing the faults and weaknesses of others.

'One should not talk about the defects of others even if one is asked about them. One must try to avoid prying and asking personal questions about the private lives of others" [Al Ghazali, Kitab Adab pp 242-43]

For tolerance and forgiveness are necessary in order to encourage an atmosphere of fraternity in the community.

i dont think i have EVER agreed with you, doesnt look like i will
its always good to agree to disagree
u always defend everyone so i can see what u say and why u say it.... i just speak my mind, criticise , debate etc... Yuit will defend almost any muslim group that is being criticised, i think thats naeive but Yuit will think its unity and hiding the faults of others!
i can write an essay about my disagreements with Ht which i think are damaging, but no point here.... some will accuse me of fitna..others just wont understand...
i dont think Yuit has really discussed in detail with Ht's about the issues, policies of Ht about khilafah, fard ain, kifayah, nation states, death of jahiliyah, democracy, nationalism, follow law of land, voting, insurance and many other issues...

but anyway... i just better shut up

So according to yuit, we should hide HT's faults n let the youth get misled. Yeh that great, conceal there faults n let em lead unsuspecting youth into hell or summin right.

As for my sources, 3 of my cousins, from london or surrounding areas are HT's, 2 r recovering former HT's tryna get the other 3 out. The other day I spoke to ma cuzn who left HT n he told me why...~Long story, if i bother posting it all, it'll jus get a big shout of BS. so whats the point right?

basically he told me they got funny ideas in aqeedah, for example, they dunt beleve in punishment of grave. N they tell there students not to get into aqeedah issues with others becuz they only wna fight for khilafah, not aqeedah issues.

They say amphetamines are debateable, n many of there members use summin called khat which i hav no idea wat it is.

He also told me most of his time with HT was wasted defacing public property, spray painting "Democracy is hypocrasy, Khilafah is coming" etc. Also, he told me they use to run round in london on thursday nights, beatin up drunks, n bricking pubs. I asked him whetehr HT encouraged this, he told me it was encouraged by a high member of HT, whose house they used to go to once a week for a halaqah.

Eventually this stupid stuff caught up with him, n landed him in prison for 6 monthes,he got out bout a month ago. Anyway, while he was in prison, my uncle went to meet him, n i knew he was anti-sufi, as are HT. So i told my uncle to buy him a book to giv him, thouhgt it would be funny to get him a few sufi books, So my uncle bought him an Imam Ghazali book. N he started asking for more of these sufi books.

Neway his tym in prison wasnt a complete waste, he read up on classical scholors (which HT discourage btw) n realised HT was a joke, n now he's tryna get his life in check. 1st thing he did when he came out was to take bayah into silsila Qadiri, which i dint beleve at 1st, thouhgt he was havin me on,

Anyhow, 3 of my cuzns r deep in HT still at the moment, n him n one other cuzn tryna get him outta HT.

The reason they joined?
Basically all 5 of them were not practising, they were astray youth living in london, chillers, not druggies or nething, jus chillers.

One of them had a friend who got involved with HT,got him involved, he got the other involved, n for past mayb 5ish years they been deep in. He also told me they hardly do much in workin towards the khilafah, he sed they are always told, they r in a phase were they are makin people aware of it. They been doin it for 50+ years n they aint got nowhere. He sed its more likely George bush makin a khilafah then HT 😂 , he is a bit of a joker, so i think tghat was a joke.

Anyhow, thas my sources, my family members. I dunt kno much else bout HT except what they hav told me, 1st they use to big em up, now 2 of em r cursing them. Makes you wonder.

Ed can tell us more, which i hope he duz becuz he has a personal experience with them.

Keep the language under control please, across all threads ------NewModOnTheBlock

deleted

In stead of 'Ed attacking yuit and dust, and them two defending, I think it would be more appropriate to actually stick to the topic.

The topic is not 'do you like the HT? what do you think of those who tolerate them?'.

Its more about them and other groups. what position do they hold on various issues? are they peaceful? should they be banned or publicised?

I would rather see a proper discussion in which I may learn something...

(and 'Ed saying 'I have never agreed with you nor will I ever' is not constructive discussion. It holds no merit apart from ignoring the discussion...so please either discuss, or leave this topic well alone. Afterall there are plenty of other topics here aswell...)

salaam muslim_girl.

One thing I think we have missed is that working towards an Islamic state is a collective duty. Someone has to be doing it. (well.. that is what I have been told...)

And since the HT are doing it, they are fulfilling the communal obligation. (The HT I spoke to disagreed though... he was of the opinion its a personal obligation on every single muslim...).

Thus the HT are keeping me and others away from sin. (If noone works towards khilafah, then the whole community is at fault... everyone sinning...)

Apart from that, the aqeedah issue is not that they have a certain aqeedah, but rather the people they come into contact with do not have any real prior Islamic knowledge, and thus do not know their aqeedah. When they learn it, they will learn it from the people that teach them.

If someone asked me an aqeedah question, I would tell them what I believe, not what others believe.

So the issue is of finding the right teacher.

I don't believe that by hiding people fault we will get unity, but by exposing people in public, you will find it has a worser effect. Especially when some if not most of the agrument are on hearsay. Just look at the past when people have decided to attack certain groups and people full on, in trying to defeat the opposition you normally end up just defeating yourself. When i have a problem with anything HT do, i tell them directly and normally in private, i haven't been to one of their events in over a year now, but at the end of the day we both know where we stand and there no bad feelings. At the end of the day, i don't think anyone i defend has evil intent, if they did, i would speak publically against them or if left in doubt would remain silent.

On Razor point about people getting misled, the more you attack a certain group the more these people will close their mind to you, now surely it be better you go with a positive rather then a negative, so instead of trying to make a agrument why someone shouldn't join HT, why not try creating a agrument why they should follow what you are doing, in the process it saves so much Fitna. Talking about fellow muslims and Hell, to me you are stepping on dangerous ground here.

Why i haven't bother discussing HT in full, because as i mention it an old topic which has been discuss many a time and the same point keep getting raised, you only have to look at this thread below and i sure there a couple more like them lying around this forum and the old one. All the point Ed has raised have already been discuss here already.

Banning HT

w/s

I think Ed should lay-off mentioing forum-members by name unless he has something positive to say.

This way he will be forced to tackle the argument rather than the person.

TheRevivalEditormy apologies to Dust

apology accepted.

now can we discuss this with an open mind please... i'm sure we can all communicate our points without making this personal.

*DUST*

TheRevivalEditormy apologies to Dust

apology accepted.

now can we discuss this with an open mind please... i'm sure we can all communicate our points without making this personal.

Fair enuff.

Now, a lil twist in topic. n im not bashing anyone here, im asking fellow forumites there views...

Anjum choudary, the bloke with the big beard, spokesman for Al mahajiroon. Ive seen him about 3 times on TV, and each time he manages to call a muslim a kafir. EG, once he was talkin to a female muslim lawyer, he told her, "you not wearing a hijaab, so u not following the sharia, you cant b a muslim, your goin to hell."

Another time he was on with a guy who i dunt remember his profession, but the guy had a lil short beard, anjum choudary sed, "when you follow the sharia and hav a proper sharia beard, then u can tell me what muslims think, at the moment you are not a muslim".

Also, ive herd from many people that HT use a similar technique in the sense that they say, you practise islam brother you pray 5 times a day? the brother says no, they say, wat kinda muslim r u.

Also, ive herd from my aunties visit to london, she looks rather young, she went to a HT stall she saw, to see wat info she cud find. They basically sed, you not wearing a hijab, u shud wear a hijab to b a good muslim woman.

Now the HT stuff i havn't seen with my eyes, but anjum choudary i seen many times on TV do this.

Is this what helps us unite? telling others they not good muslims, makin em feel bad, makin a fool of yaself in the process?

Discuss

what on earth has anjum choudary got to do with HT? razor, there's a reason Al-Muhajiroun came into existence: they disagreed with HT and so broke off and formed their own group, got banned, and then re-grouped as Al-Gorabaa.

*DUST*what on earth has anjum choudary got to do with HT? razor, there's a reason Al-Muhajiroun came into existence: they disagreed with HT and so broke off and formed their own group, got banned, and then re-grouped as Al-Gorabaa.

Well in my original post i mention mahajiroon or wateva thy wna call themselves, They used to b part of HT bck in the day.

And, they come under "other loony toons", n im askin wat we think n how we shud handle this situation.

Salaam

Well, if someone doesn't pray 5 times a day, definate room for improvement. However, I don't see a great need to put them down, on TV unless there is some Hiqmah in it, however I wouldn't be able to see the Hiqmah in it.

muslim_girlsalaam,
HT!!, when i first strted prticing the deen proprly i attented alot of thr study circle, confrences etc despite what every1 sed about them. but l8r on they strted messin wid my brain, trying to confuze, quetsining my fiqh, aqeedah and to the point wer they almst tried to convice me that celbrthing the birth of the beloved was wrong. so afta that i backd down frm HT. persnally frm past exprince i think u shud stay away frm them, thr very clever allahmdullih about the deen and they can twist ur aqeedah around about certain things and make u think tht ur in the wrng and ther rite. just thought i'd share my thoughts on the subject.

(salaam 2 all, ive just joined)

that just had to be quoted because that is the real reason why these people classed as 'looney toons' are dangerous

yuit your comments (on the last page) would be quite acceptable if we were not talking about the souls of people but where a serious issue such as ones soul is concerned then i think it is very important to know the faults of parties that have the potential to mislead you.