France in Flames...

Why should they leave the country?

Is it too much for France to deliver a decent living environment for immigrants from its former colonies?

No. Is it too much for these guys to refrain from petrol bombing everything in sight? An old man died today, attacked by these poor unfortunates you speak of.

And whence the unlicensed cars handing out molotovs? The warehouse full of petrol, bottles and balaclavas? You really think this is spontaneous anger, at the same time as rioting breaks out in Denmark, Spain, Sweden, Belgium... Give me a break! Al Qaeda have been promising a Ramadan offensive for ages. This is it.

Al Qaeda is behind it?

Well that means we can forget about analysing the socio-economic and political problems afflicting immigrants from Europe's former colonies. Because Al Qaeda is behind it.

Forget about schemes to create jobs in deprived areas. Because Al Qaeda is behind it.

Forget tackling prejudices and racism. Because Al Qaeda is behind it.

I wouldn't say that either. Just your angle is way off and your sympathies are misplaced.

100No. Is it too much for these guys to refrain from petrol bombing everything in sight? An old man died today, attacked by these poor unfortunates you speak of.

And whence the unlicensed cars handing out molotovs? The warehouse full of petrol and bottles? You really think this is spontaneous anger, at the same time as rioting breaks out in Denmark, Spain, Sweden, Belgium... Give me a break! Al Qaeda have been promising a Ramadan offensive for ages. This is it.

That funny, bring everything back to Al Quaeda, was the birmingham riot cause by them as well, what about the riots that took place in Bradford Oldham and Burnley a little while ago. You sort of attitude is the exact reason why we see the problem that we do. You go and visit these areas in Paris and the first thing you realise is that there isn't much hope there for many of teh individual there, which is one of the reason such action take place, it fertile ground for violence and the attitude and stance of the government have not help in this situation with there small minded views. No one is saying what is happening is good, but it important to know some of the reason behind why it happening.

Yuit,

I'm not aware Al Qaeda have been threatening Birmingham lately. Whereas Algerian AQ was just issuing fatwas against France. French Intelligence have been warning of AQ activity in these riots. Cars have been distributing petrol bombs. There was the warehouse. There are the stonings and shootings. It is countrywide. I wouldn't compare it so readily to Lozells, and I don't offer my sympathy.

So what is 'my sort of attitude'?

You guys are grasping at straws in an effort to excuse these scumbags.

I know, they need more money! Someone give them some money! The carrot and carrot approach!

Your money or your life! C'mon, I'm unemployed! I'm unhappy!

If i remember right we had so call islamist group claiming responsibility for the blackout in New York a little while ago. We also had various so call group claim responbility for the London Bombing as well. :roll:

Now these factory that have been found. It funny how they used the word factory to describe them giving the idea that it all professional, but do we really know anything for real at the moment. I think we in the midst of a propaganda war at the moment and i wouldn't take the french word for everything. Just by looking at the channel 4 news i could see that the police were at time using unnecessary force and igniting the problem and giving more people a cause. What teh Rioter are doing is wrong, i haven't applied anything esle, but France has created this problem with their attitude long ago.

Also your attitude I talking about is one of not understanding the situation, it seem to quick and readily to push the jihadist and islamist cause for my liking. When you could look at various other aspect. It seem that the islam has a stigma attach to it, so to make something hard hitting you simply add islamist at the end of all sentences.

It all good looking at the reaction, but we should also have a moment to look at the action that has cause this reaction.

100Your money or your life! C'mon, I'm unemployed! I'm unhappy!

lol, i remember when there were riots on the streets of London against poll tax..

riots happen, theres always a bigger picture,,. stop being foolish with your racist undertones.. there's enough of it on the racist neo con media.

Yuit,

I am simply pointing out, it looks to have been orchestrated, and I am not inclined towards sympathy about the living conditions if that is the case. Or rather I am, but it is quite a different matter. It is not 'the action that has caused the reaction'. This is an action of choice, and not a vital action by any means, people are now being injured and killed, and it seems to have been orchestrated.

khan,

Zip it with your 'racist undertones'. Unless you have a tangible example let's not talk racism, you and I. Using racism as an excuse to be above criticism is pretty weak and self-defeating. France will see some real racism in various elections, talking of reactions.

The poll tax riot was not like this. There was some looting, and political fringes committed commercial violence and got into fights, but by and large it was a peaceful rally, for one day.

100Yuit,

I am simply pointing out, it looks to have been orchestrated, and I am not inclined towards sympathy about the living conditions if that is the case. Or rather I am, but it is quite a different matter. It is not 'the action that has caused the reaction'. This is an action of choice, and not a vital action by any means, people are now being injured and killed, and it seems to have been orchestrated.

So what is different in this riot then any of the riot in the past then, they were all orchestrated at some level as well. Ofcourse we seeing a action of choice, but when isn't it the case, all i saying is that this incident has been brewing for a while and the French authority haven't done anything but add fuel to the flame in the mind of the rioters. My cousins who live in France has been telling of the tension that has existed for a while now and this incident has come as no surprise too me.

100
your posts are burrlatantly racist.. yes I said it..

ur so glued on pointing the finger at Muslims, its sickening..

open ur eyes, look at the woods beyond the trees. its opinions and policies of narrow minded scum who 'force' people to burst out.

the way the neo-cons are materialising on the sad events in france is pathetic. the nazi's are loving it..

the neo-cons are loving it.. I guess they're closer to their dream of the clash of civilasations between the west and Islam which they've been wishing for so long.

mate, wake up.. its a riot.. yep violence is wrong. u got dat on a plate.. but there are scum on both sides of the conflict there.. the biggest scum of all are the ones who could have prevented something like this..

France will see some real racism in various elections, talking of reactions.

I bet u'll love all the Muslim bashing that will go on.. I just pray that you're wrong.. and the authorities realise that Muslims should be accepted into France as french citizens rather than taking your attitude of 'if you don't like it here, get out of the country..'

Not that I'm an angel but it is not a question of pointing, khan. I fear the Muslim bashing, because I don't want the community provoked. There are violent factions in Muslim communities. But I am also well aware that isn't inherent to Muslims and in lots of places, such as usually on this forum, I see a lot of good Muslim people, beautiful Muslim people, who have nothing to do with violence, terrorism etc. I will take a stand against any reaction which is racist, and I already do, which you wouldn't know about. Still I make no bones about the religion of people who riot and shout "Allah hu Akbar". I cannot ignore key facts such as I mentioned, concerning alleged terrorist involvement. I also fear that the reaction will be a broader tension such as NF, or the BNP here gaining ground. That would affect me as well. I also hate that these amazing countries that took us or our ancestors in and provided us with equal opportunities may yet go to ruin. So no, I am not eagerly awaiting Muslim bashing, and I do not endorse the Muslim rioting.

geeza,.. ur blatantly one sided here, its written all over ur posts.. ur blinded by ur racist mentality.

u'r not even making an effort to hide ur hatred these days..

u get easily offended by Allahu Akbar, when you know very well it means God is Great.

Ur trying to make Muslims on here to accept its a problem with only the Muslims, when you know very well that Racism exists in France and is the biggest contributers to the problems there right now..

u fret by spitting out sad predicitions of how it'll get it worse for Muslims there.

do not wish for it to happen here in the UK.. it will not happen, Muslims will be accepted here as they are..

I'm sorry 100, we're here to stay, the paki wont go home.

khan, that is a misleading response, and perhaps you have not read my post very closely. I accept there are problems of racism in France. Like I said, the Jews there have been emigrating. A lot of the problem for such people I have spoken to was attacks by jihadis. It is unfortunate that you identify jihadis with all Muslims, which probably isn't your intention, and if I accepted that point I would indeed be racist or discriminatong unfairly.

khan, you finish on a nasty tone. That is smearing, and I am pretty sure other Revival members understand my points a lot better than that, even when I am disagreeing with accepted principles. I hope that is not what this is.

its not a misleading response at all,.

i've read ur posts very carefully. ur posts are racist and one sided.

ur materialising on the faults of the rioters - which all muslims on here have said is wrong. but no, ur making it out that the french are the vicitims here.. don't forget those who are rioting are french as well.. its the 'go back home' attitudes from narrow minded scum thats the root of problem there.

i don';t mean to offend 100, just speaking my mind.. get rid of all that hatred geeza.

how u getting on with the verses from the Qur'an regarding Jews as friends.. thought u were gna get back to us about the translations from that girl scholar of yours 🙂

anyways must run..

It is a thoroughly misleading response and a smear. I don't say 'go home'. I say, if a given immigrant culture begins rioting in this way with these facts, I don't understand why they don't just leave the country, and I object to the violence.

Thanks for reminding me about your own racism. I don't know what happened with that, but there's someone I've been asked to call who I haven't yet.

Khan refrain from suh accusations. He has a diferenc eof opinion to yourself, and many others.

As always the circumstances make the people.

were these people BORN in france born up with a petrol bomb in their hand?

No

When they were born in france, did they blow up cars before they drank their milk? no.

Now, what made them do this act? Its a horrendous criminal activity, but it has its reasons.

Its a cry out. In the beeb article I posted, those for violence, and those against both said that whatever is doen, they will not be heard. Not if they moved politically. Not if they used violence. They would be ignored, and remain the underclass.

Now a lack of hope is something that can lead to many actions. Those actions may not be right, but they are born through the circumstances.

100It is a thoroughly misleading response and a smear. I don't say 'go home'. I say, if a given immigrant culture begins rioting in this way with these facts, I don't understand why they don't just leave the country, and I object to the violence.

Now that does sound BNPish; 'don't like it here? do not try to change anything! just leave!'

Just like MPAC were told: 'Don't like Jack straw? why don't you go back to pakistan?'

or 'not happy with public transort? you are free to leave the country'

That statement is not on.

It's funny how some jewish "intellectuals" are so eager to point out when the perpatraitors of certain crimes are christians and muslims yet if any one makes generalisations about jews they hit the ceiling and have to scare people into submission with make believe dangers like "The New Anti-semitism". Hell, even attacking the neo-cons without pointing out that they're mostly jewish can get you called anti-semitic.

Hey maybe its a coincidence. Muslims like Bakri like to hit the ceiling too, if I had tennants in the floor above me who didn't keep the noise down then i'd gram my broom handle and hit the ceillin too.

In conclusion just like muslim fiancees, its all relative...joke. 😛

Here's an interesting take on the French riots.

Rather like Sharon and his 'peace' visit to Al Aqsa that kicked off the Second Intifada.

Where It Started Before It Started

Most of the media trace the unrest to October 27th, when two boys -- one of Tunisian origin and the other whose family comes from Mauritania -- were accidentally electrocuted at an electrical substation after attempting to escape or avoid the police. When the news spread, civil disobedience broke out that evening in the northern Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois, where the accident took place.

According to a November 4th LA Times article, however, the first spark of the outbreak can actually be traced back to October 26 when Sarkozy led a media contingent to the poverty stricken community of Argenteuil. There, Sarkozy engaged in a test of wills with (what the reports describe as) gang leaders and Islamic fundamentalists, declaring that poor areas would be reclaimed with tough policing. Youths at the scene reacted to Sarkozy's comments by throwing objects and Sarkozy responded by calling them "thugs."

One of his main critics, French-Algerian Azouz Begag, the Cabinet minister for equal opportunity, has accused Sarkozy of "pouring gasoline on the flames" through the use of "warlike semantics" and media displays in rough neighborhoods. The rest of the government, including his potential rival for the Presidency, Prime Minister de Villepin, and the President Chirac (who is said to distain him) have largely given Sarkozy -- who claims to have lowered the crime rate during his two terms -- wide latitude to operate independently.

BAGnewsNotes

its cold in bham, damn those al qa EEE das, theyve got the weather as well.

Med, interesting example of intellectual theft there. I don't wonder where you came across it.

irfghan, I like the comparison.

salaf, it does fit, is all. You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to note that there are agitators whipping up discontent in Muslim communities whether the figleaf is Palestine, poverty, Western mores or Qu'ranic verses. If when that is raised you get on your high horse it is not as if you are necessarily defending Islam. It would be enough to point out, which I'm well aware, that these guys don't represent all Muslims. To excuse them and adopt their arguments but then claim that you are being tarnished is a nonsense. To divert attention every time is more than a nonsense, it is a policy of obfuscation. Personally I don't buy it, and more fool whoever does. It is like khan having the gall to accuse me of racism, given his own comments. The significance of rioters shouting Allahu Akhbar is the belief that their religion permits this. To say so isn't racist. I went to the trouble of pointing out that a fatwa has been passed against the rioting, not because I am delivering any fatwa, since you are not involved, but to demonstrate that to my knowledge Muslims are not united around jihad and intefadah. If every time Muslims bring disgrace on Islam, at least from a non-Muslim point of view, you firmly defend the Muslims in question and take the opportunity to argue against non-Muslims, you take a side. Fair enough. Like saying, I am a Zionist, and I talk straight enough that any smear campaign is futile.

apart from the fact that the muslim clergy have issues a fatwa that such acts of wanton distruction are against Islam?

Alot of people misunderstand the usage of Allahuakbar.

In muslim society its a common term used for many things, one of which is a show of support, another is for religious reasons, another is a t times of anguish... and on and on.

Shouting that does not mean anything.

Like in the recent earthquakes in pakistan. They showed a clip of the live tv program in Islamabad, during which the whole place started to shake. Guess what they were shouting? Now iff that were a bomb, I know that would have been enough proof to say it was Islamic terrorists. just like when an iranian jet crashed. just because they shouted there is no god biut allah, it was related as terrorist incident.

You praise the lord at all times. during success, during failure. during times of hope, and durin times os hopelessness. such shouts have no context there, so 100 i do find such thoughts offensive, but can also see your argument... I disagree.

Not that there are not elements whipping it up. Sarkozy is one. another is the criminal underworld.

Admin, I am replying before I even read your post, to point out from your first line that you did not read mine.

And having read your post, I note that you gloss over my message and commit exactly what I was addressing. Disingenuous.

heh, true! I read the first bit of yours... i will read the rest now...

sorry!

100
salaf, it does fit, is all. You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to note that there are agitators whipping up discontent in Muslim communities whether the figleaf is Palestine, poverty, Western mores or Qu'ranic verses. If when that is raised you get on your high horse it is not as if you are necessarily defending Islam. It would be enough to point out, which I'm well aware, that these guys don't represent all Muslims. To excuse them and adopt their arguments but then claim that you are being tarnished is a nonsense. To divert attention every time is more than a nonsense, it is a policy of obfuscation. Personally I don't buy it, and more fool whoever does. It is like khan having the gall to accuse me of racism, given his own comments. The significance of rioters shouting Allahu Akhbar is the belief that their religion permits this. To say so isn't racist. I went to the trouble of pointing out that a fatwa has been passed against the rioting, not because I am delivering any fatwa, since you are not involved, but to demonstrate that to my knowledge Muslims are not united around jihad and intefadah. If every time Muslims bring disgrace on Islam, at least from a non-Muslim point of view, you firmly defend the Muslims in question and take the opportunity to argue against non-Muslims, you take a side. Fair enough. Like saying, I am a Zionist, and I talk straight enough that any smear campaign is futile.

Yeah, I know you're probably used to using words like "conspiracy theorist" and scaring people into submission but that isn't going to work with me. The only people who are saying that these riots have anything to do with Islam are right-wing jews like Melanie Phillips and David Horowitz. The French aren't saying it not even the National Front there. I remember before all this some French minister claiming that most muslim youth in France aren't even that religious (which may well be the case). Believe it or not some people actually see through these Stalinist mind game tactics. We're not all idiots.

100And having read your post, I note that you gloss over my message and commit exactly what I was addressing. Disingenuous.

sorry.

I ahve read your post now (hint: use smaller paragraphs... any para over 4 lines has the chance of being glossed over...)

I semi-defended those rioters, but that was before I even realised they were muslims.

Its just that previously I have read tensions brewing under the seems. i looked into it at rthe time they wanted to ban the hijab, and saw the false arguments they were using, and the debate was elsewhere, but this issue was being used to cover their hineys..

and the fact that the french do not want to see turey in the.. not because of turkey's human rights abuses, but because its a muslim country.

Its not an issue of defending muslims. i can see the wrongs in the riotings... but i also see a deeply deprived society. It does not matter what religion that society has. I did not look to see wether they were muslims before pointing out that issue. Teh muslim issue was brought up later.