Gaza Bombarded

[quote=Joie de Vivre]Two brief points:

Whatever you like to call it, this is no genocide.

Intervention on humanitarian grounds might be reasonable, but Hamas has a clear ideology that is rejected not just by Israel and that costs any legitimate Palestinian cause a great deal in terms of support. Indeed it is only that ideology and its manifestation that gives Israel cause to fight. Criticism of the campaign is not a terrible thing but it seems the fact of Hamas's position is easily forgotten while some ostensibly wonder how Israel could do such a thing.[/quote]

What is the ideology of Hamas?

Where does Hamas' ideology sit with Israel being an ideologically Jewish state?

[quote="Hamas"]

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

Article 2:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Moslem Brotherhood in Palestine. Moslem Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.

Article 7:

As a result of the fact that those Moslems who adhere to the ways of the Islamic Resistance Movement spread all over the world, rally support for it and its stands, strive towards enhancing its struggle, the Movement is a universal one. It is well-equipped for that because of the clarity of its ideology, the nobility of its aim and the loftiness of its objectives.

On this basis, the Movement should be viewed and evaluated, and its role be recognised. He who denies its right, evades supporting it and turns a blind eye to facts, whether intentionally or unintentionally, would awaken to see that events have overtaken him and with no logic to justify his attitude. One should certainly learn from past examples.

The injustice of next-of-kin is harder to bear than the smite of the Indian sword.

"We have also sent down unto thee the book of the Koran with truth, confirming that scripture which was revealed before it; and preserving the same safe from corruption. Judge therefore between them according to that which Allah hath revealed; and follow not their desires, by swerving from the truth which hath come unto thee. Unto every of you have we given a law, and an open path; and if Allah had pleased, he had surely made you one people; but he hath thought it fit to give you different laws, that he might try you in that which he hath given you respectively. Therefore strive to excel each other in good works; unto Allah shall ye all return, and then will he declare unto you that concerning which ye have disagreed." (The Table, verse 48).

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Article 11:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Moslems, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land - whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Moslems, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit. As for the real ownership of the land and the land itself, it should be consecrated for Moslem generations till Judgement Day. Those who are on the land, are there only to benefit from its fruit. This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void.

"Verily, this is a certain truth. Wherefore praise the name of thy Lord, the great Allah." (The Inevitable - verse 95).

Article 13:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation.".

[/quote]

And since this comment is getting long I recommend looking up "Hamas Covenant" or "Hamas Charter" for more, and pick a source you like. The bit I've bolded seems to answer your question if I understood the question correctly.

It seems to me that differences in opinion regarding the moral right of the parties involved is due to perspective. So I would be grateful if [b]Joie[/b] (whose opinion seems to be the only different opinion here) [b]would answer the 6 cunningly fiendish questions[/b] I have devised. It would help me better guage your perspective.

Agree or disagree:

[b]Hamas broke the ceasefire versus Israel squeezing the Palestinians too tight.[/b] Please read the Amnesty International quote at the bottom of the post first.

Q1./ Do you agree that Israel was squeezing the Gaza Palestinians prior to the breaking of the ceasefire?

Q2./ Do agree that Hamas's breaking of the ceasefire was as a response to Israeli 'sanctions'?

Q3./ Discounting a military solution, do you agree that Hamas needed to do something to alleviate the presure of those sanctions?

[b]Israel's disproportionate response versus its desire to protect its citizens.[/b]

Q1./ Do you agree that Israel is doing [b]nothing more[/b] than trying to destroy the capabilities of Palestinian militants to fire projectile weapons into Israel?

Q2./ Do you agree that Israel is attacking the Palestinians of Gaza disproportionately to the attacks of Hamas on Israel?

Q3./ Do you agree that there is no moral justification for this disproportionate response?

As supplies are being further withheld, most mills have shut down because they have little or no grain. People who have long been deprived of many food items now cannot even find bread at times.

Reserves of food have long been depleted and the meagre quantities allowed into Gaza are not even enough to meet the immediate needs. Families never know if they will have food for their children the following day.

When people do have food, they generally have no cooking gas or electricity with which to cook it. Last week, less than 10 per cent of the weekly requirement of cooking gas was allowed into Gaza.

Shortages of fuel, electricity and spare parts are causing water and sanitation infrastructure and other crucial services to deteriorate a bit more every day. Eighty per cent of the wells are now only functioning at reduced capacity and water supply is only available for a few hours every few days.

At times when water is available, there is no electricity or fuel to pump it into apartment buildings. Shortages of chlorine increase the risk of waterborne diseases.

Routine blackouts disrupt every aspect of life for everyone. Hospitals are struggling to power life-saving machinery and it is ever more difficult to maintain laundry and other essential services.

Even patients in need of medical treatment unavailable in Gaza, are often denied passage out of Gaza. Scores of people have died in the past year when they could have been saved if only they had been allowed to travel.

Amnesty International

So, the Hamas Charter says:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up...

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement...

These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters...

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

But Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh has gone against these precepts of the Hamas Charter by compromising on territory and trying to find a peaceful solution:

Haniyeh said: "We don't have a state, neither in Gaza nor in the West Bank. Gaza is under siege and the West Bank is occupied. What we have in the Gaza Strip is not a state, but rather a regime of an elected government. A Palestinian state will not be created at this time except in the territories of 1967."

Haaretz

A few months after Hamas' 2006 election victory, leader Ismail Haniyeh tried to start a dialogue with U.S. President George W. Bush.

Haaretz has obtained a written message from Haniyeh sent to Bush via an American professor who met with Haniyeh in the Gaza Strip.

Haniyeh called on Bush to launch a dialogue with the Hamas government.

"We are not warmongers, we are peace makers and we call on the American government to have direct negotiations with the elected government," he wrote. Haniyeh also urged the American government to act to end the international boycott "because the continuation of this situation will encourage violence and chaos in the whole region."

Haaretz

Is it possible that Hamas' ideology as portrayed in the Charter is open to amendment?

Shouldn't Israel reach out to Hamas when it makes statements which go against the Charter?

[quote=Dawud]Q1./ Do you agree that Israel was squeezing the Gaza Palestinians prior to the breaking of the ceasefire?[/quote]

Yes I do agree, if the ceasefire was broken at the point Hamas declared it broken. Nonetheless I don't know what kind of ceasefire features regular rocket attacks. However, life in Gaza was by no means a humanitarian disaster. Israel had a straightforward policy of allowing aid following 24 hours without rocket fire, and sometimes anyway under international pressure. As things stand it is unique for any country at war to handle and supply any aid for its opposition, but given the various pressures on all parties perhaps that is inevitable here. Israel's real mistake was in allowing and often encouraging the Egyptians to maintain a blockade. Egypt has a great deal of help from the EU and is supposed to have managed the border so as to permit all trade barring weapons. They didn't do that, and the smuggling tunnels became an important resource for Palestinians, not just militants. Nobody makes much of Egypt's border with Gaza. In fact Egypt, having occupied Gaza up until 1967, refused a claim on it at the first Camp David. Egypt, like Jordan, doesn't want the Muslim Brotherhood to make any gains at their expense. The Egyptian FM was very clear that Egypt had warned Hamas and they had brought this on themselves. Many Egyptians will not accept that. Some will. Saudi Arabia by the way takes the view that they cannot help Hamas if Hamas is not aligned with Fatah. Saudi Arabia is very proud of its peace plan, not terribly dissimilar to others before it but recently a non-starter since the insertion of a contentious clause. Either way they are unhappy with Hamas behaving anarchically.

[quote]Q2./ Do agree that Hamas's breaking of the ceasefire was as a response to Israeli 'sanctions'?[/quote]

Hard to say. Hard to say how Hamas ever kept the ceasefire. Hamas play not for peace but for a hudna in which they rearm, but the latest ceasefire wasn't even that. Again, Egypt could have handled things very differently, but I acknowledge Israel was complicit.

[quote]Q3./ Discounting a military solution, do you agree that Hamas needed to do something to alleviate the presure of those sanctions?[/quote]

Yes, they needed to stop firing rockets so that normal trade could resume. They also needn't have destroyed their greatest assets when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Everything has been manipulated by Hamas. Humanitarian concerns don't figure much in Hamas' thinking unless you work for a media organisation. Then it is very important. I make no apologies for the depth of my mistrust. Hamas publishes and broadcasts incendiary material like nobody else. They have no humanitarian credentials.

[quote]Q1./ Do you agree that Israel is doing [b]nothing more[/b] than trying to destroy the capabilities of Palestinian militants to fire projectile weapons into Israel?[/quote]

No, I don't agree. Israel cannot achieve that in the long-term, although they will be looking to do so in the short term. Certainly they have diminished Hamas' capabilities, but that doesn't mean Hamas won't come back with everything they've got, or find a way to take in new weapons or manufacture shoddy ones. Israel is looking to lay waste to whatever weaponry it can, to destroy the infrastructure of Hamas, to take out its key leadership and, ultimately, to send the message that this is what happens if you think Israel won't respond to provocation or that you can manage the response. If that amounts to a breaking of Hamas' will or, more likely, of Palestinian faith in Hamas, we will not know until after the operation.

[quote]Q2./ Do you agree that Israel is attacking the Palestinians of Gaza disproportionately to the attacks of Hamas on Israel?[/quote]

Yes. Again that is Hamas's doing, since it is well known that if they have a single bullet left they will claim victory and learn no lesson. A proportionate response, firing volleys at random, would achieve nothing unless Israel used such powerful weaponry as to be even more disproportionate - bearing in mind my earlier post, you tell me how Israel can respond to Hamas if not with the intention of winning?

[quote]Q3./ Do you agree that there is no moral justification for this disproportionate response?[/quote]

No. My previous answers make that clear. If I accepted the line that this is an attempt at genocide, a deliberate and malicious attack on civilians, then of course I would share that view. But I don't. So there is a limit, a really disastrous attack on civilians, something that missed its target, would be enough for me to shout stop. And so, incidentally, would the Israeli public. Some might hold that Israel has inflicted that much damage already. I say an inconclusive ending would be a disaster.

[quote=Beast]Is it possible that Hamas' ideology as portrayed in the Charter is open to amendment?

Shouldn't Israel reach out to Hamas when it makes statements which go against the Charter? [/quote]

They have done so, Israel has back channels of communication even with Syria, Iran and Hizbollah. Of course. Israel in fact provided early support to Hamas as a counterweight to Arafat's pre-Oslo Fatah. There is an organic element to Hamas, composed of many disenfranchised Palestinians, and of course that does leave open the possibility that Hamas will adjust its charter. But they haven't done so. Let them change the bits swearing to eradicate Israel and keep their ceasefires.

[quote=Joie de Vivre][quote=Beast]Is it possible that Hamas' ideology as portrayed in the Charter is open to amendment?

Shouldn't Israel reach out to Hamas when it makes statements which go against the Charter? [/quote]

They have done so, Israel has back channels of communication even with Syria, Iran and Hizbollah. Of course. Israel in fact provided early support to Hamas as a counterweight to Arafat's pre-Oslo Fatah. There is an organic element to Hamas, composed of many disenfranchised Palestinians, and of course that does leave open the possibility that Hamas will adjust its charter. But they haven't done so. Let them change the bits swearing to eradicate Israel and keep their ceasefires.[/quote]

Wouldn't it be better for Israel to give incentives to Hamas that would encourage it to alter its Charter rather than try to destroy Hamas and any other Palestinians who get in the way?

[quote=Beast][quote=Joie de Vivre][quote=Beast]Is it possible that Hamas' ideology as portrayed in the Charter is open to amendment?

Shouldn't Israel reach out to Hamas when it makes statements which go against the Charter? [/quote]

They have done so, Israel has back channels of communication even with Syria, Iran and Hizbollah. Of course. Israel in fact provided early support to Hamas as a counterweight to Arafat's pre-Oslo Fatah. There is an organic element to Hamas, composed of many disenfranchised Palestinians, and of course that does leave open the possibility that Hamas will adjust its charter. But they haven't done so. Let them change the bits swearing to eradicate Israel and keep their ceasefires.[/quote]

Wouldn't it be better for Israel to give incentives to Hamas that would encourage it to alter its Charter rather than try to destroy Hamas and any other Palestinians who get in the way? [/quote]

Like, say, withdraw from Gaza and leave intact Israel's most prized asset in the region? What incentives?

[quote=Joie de Vivre]Yes I do agree, if the ceasefire was broken at the point Hamas declared it broken. Nonetheless I don't know what kind of ceasefire features regular rocket attacks.[/quote]

Do you agree with punishing a whole family for the crimes of JUST the father?

I mean, punishing with TANKS!

[quote=Ya'qub][quote=Joie de VivreYes I do agree, if the ceasefire was broken at the point Hamas declared it broken. Nonetheless I don't know what kind of ceasefire features regular rocket attacks.[/quote]

Do you agree with punishing a whole family for the crimes of JUST the father?

I mean, punishing with TANKS![/quote]

No. I don't think this is about punishing, this is about reaching Hamas. It is a problem.

[quote=Joie de Vivre]Like, say, withdraw from Gaza and leave intact Israel's most prized asset in the region? What incentives?[/quote]

Like,

- don't block medical aid into Gaza

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LN524454.htm

- don't make incursions when there is a ceasefire on

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians-eg…

- allow ordinary Gazans to have money

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27890651/

- understand that truces are a two thing

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1039823.html

- allow humanitarian workers and journalists into gaza

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israelopt-immediate-acc…

That kind of thing.

[quote=Beast][quote=Joie de Vivre]Like, say, withdraw from Gaza and leave intact Israel's most prized asset in the region? What incentives?[/quote]

Like,

- don't block medical aid into Gaza

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LN524454.htm

- don't make incursions when there is a ceasefire on

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians-eg…

- allow ordinary Gazans to have money

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27890651/

- understand that truces are a two thing

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1039823.html

- allow humanitarian workers and journalists into gaza

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israelopt-immediate-acc…

That kind of thing. [/quote]

re: your first link. Did you read it in full? Here it is:

[quote]GENEVA, Oct 23 (Reuters) - The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said on Thursday that virtually no medical supplies were reaching Gaza, putting the lives of several hundred seriously ill patients at stake.

It blamed a "standstill in cooperation" between Palestinian authorities in the West Bank and the Hamas-controlled strip for imports of medical supplies having slowed to a "trickle" in recent weeks, aggravating an already critical situation.

"The ICRC calls on the Palestinian health authorities both in Ramallah and Gaza to take urgent measures to ensure that suitable medical supplies are available in Gaza in sufficient quantity," it said in a statement.

Treatment for several hundred seriously ill patients had been disrupted, according to the neutral humanitarian agency. They included children suffering from cystic fibrosis, a serious lung disease, who need daily medicines to prevent deterioration.

A two-month strike of Palestinian health workers in Gaza is also preventing hospitals from offering adequate care, it said. Surgical operations have fallen by 40 percent while admissions were down 20 percent.

Only 300 seriously ill patients were referred to hospitals in Israel, East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Jordan for specialised treatment in September, about half the average recorded in previous months, it said.

"Those affected include cancer and cardiac patients, who will suffer from a gradual deterioration of their condition if they do not receive the necessary medical attention outside Gaza," it said.

The ICRC also called on Israeli authorities to facilitate timely deliveries of medical supplies and equipment to Gaza.(which it did following 24 hours without rockets - J de V)

Israel and Hamas agreed to a ceasefire in June. It called for a cessation of cross-border violence and a gradual easing of Israel's blockage on the Gaza Strip, which was tightened after the Islamist group seized control of the territory in 2007.

"Health issues should not be politicised. Pragmatic solutions need to be found because many lives are at stake," said Katharina Ritz, head of the ICRC's Jerusalem-based mission for the Palestinian territories. (Reporting by Stephanie Nebehay)[/quote]

You third link makes very clear that Hamas was not observing the ceasefire.

The other links I have no quarrel with, but for the observation, again, that there was no ceasefire for which to reward Hamas.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this calmly. I shall exit the topic for today to allow a free conversation in my absence, and check back tomorrow.

I don't remember feeling the need to suggest a solution to the problem, obviously I trusted to much in my fellow Muslim people (and clear headed people in general) as to assume that they would already know what the correct action to take would be. I don't deny that Rallies and marches help us to raise our voices and be heard-My main issue with the whole scene is that although we might be raising our voices today, where were we yesterday?.

I think everyone knows only too well that this could have been prevented or at the very least it could have been lessened. There was a space of time in which we could have acted as we do now and could have rallied as we do now-but we didn't, and that depresses me, because it alerts me to the fact that we are not as determined as we should be to save our people.

Imagine if you can what our predecessors in Islam would say if they could see the state of our Ummah today, the very same Ummah that they died and sacrificed their lives for, for its better and so we could uphold what we know to be true. I imagine they would not so much be horrified asangered that we stand by and only voice ourselves while our Brothers and Sisters in Ghazza are being massacred-they would not wait for a convenient time, nor place, they wouldn't sign partitions or rally the streets...they would go in there thousands with nothing but the knowledge that Allah surely helps those who seek to better the state of their Ummah, and they would fight to regain back the land stolen from them by people best described as inhuman and completely devoid of all feeling.

And so you see that the sollution to the problem is not as we might think to merely voice our opinions and hope that those in higher position i.e world leaders, will make a change and better the situation. Its to take action ourselves. And make a difference OURSELVES!

Not with our hearts just, or with our tongues just, but with our hands and with the firm belief that we will succeed.

Someone pointed out to me that, as we watched the footage of rallies and speeches on television-that the same thing happened in South Africa, when the Aryan supremacy's were committing genocide and killing thousands, yet the Africans won and were once again in charge of their own affairs, aided by the global support theyreceived.

The difference though between them and Palestine, is that in order for our Government, and likewise the governments of many other countries (Including the USA) to stop the carnage, and to expose the Israeli's for what they are,

they would have to admit to their own mistake in putting the Israelis there in the first place, and that as we know is one thing no politician would be willing to do-admit to there own wrong doings.

And so talk remains just that, talk, and we can't expect anything more to come out of it, if we did that we are indeed very naive to the blatant lies being fed to us by our Government and other sources.

In regards to comments made about Hamas and any other supposed 'terrorist organisations'. Again I pose the same question as before-if it were your people, then surely would you not make the same advances as Hamas? You can't expect for a country to be unlawfully and illegally taken from its people, and then for them to submit to this rule willingly, the fact is that it is an illegal occupation, aseveryone knows it, and anyone who Denys it is fool or a deluded creep in fact.

Hamas are only fighting for what in lawfully theirs-and as the rightfully elected Government by their people, the duty is also upon them tofulfill the right of protecting the Palestinian civilians under their care.

And EVEN, if your opinion is that Hamas are partly to blame in what we have seen in the past few days, then you might at least admit that what they have received in return is completely disproportionate.

Four Israeli civilians and one Israeli Soldier (better described as ibn sharmoota) in comparison to nearly 600 Palestinians, 20% of whom are children the youngest of them barely days old.

This is nothing less than a genocide, although it is something greater that tears at the heart and causes inner grief and remorse.

Maybe opinions would change if it were you or me that faced the prospect of having our entire lives and the lives of those around us, obliterated, in a matter of minuets, even seconds. If you were the young child with limbs decapitated, the misfortune of having fallen victim to a bomb that we are told was not meant to harm innocent civilians, yet targeted at a school or mosque.

Or maybe if you were the mother who had lost all five of your daughters in one moment, all the joys of life left in the void that is now Palestine gone.

Or if you were the family who after days of indescribable fear had fallen victim to a house raid, the result of which was death at every turn.

Life is cheap. Especially to those who value the blood of one whose ethnicity does not match there's and below them. We see the effects of the Holocaust and the Nazi's reincarnated in the Jews of today, and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, in such similarity to that of the cleansing of the Jews before that you wonder how they (The Zions and anyone who supports, because anyone who agrees on any grounds with there motives is indeed a Jew/a Zion and no better than them) could disgrace the memories of their people by committing the same atrocities to another, how ironic and how sad.

The Palestinians are not living, its a limbo, of being here but waiting to die, because unless we act upon our words, they have no future, and there end is secure.

Sabr for them is the key-for indeed Allah is with those who are patient, and for us? let me say that if a child has the bravery to face a Machine gun in the face with nothing but a stone then we have (together) and collectively the strength and hopefully the bravery to face Israel with our hearts, our tongues and our hands. We are all Hamas: and as the mother I mentioned above said after loosing her children, if Hamas in its entire were to fall tomorrow then surely it would resurrect its self in the people remaining the next day. And THAT is true faith.

May Allah better there situation and give them better than what they have lost, and may they be reunited with their loved ones on Yawm Al-Qiyamah, to face their lord and give the Jews the judgment that has long awaited them, and that they deserve. Ammeen.

[quote=Urban.rust]where were we yesterday?[/quote]

We were being human, trying to live our lives. IMO its impossible to keep up interest/enthusiasm/sympathy at the same lever over a long period of time.

At some point people simply move on.

If the Israeli actions were to continue as they are now for another few months, eventually, the action will no longer be new. People will stop reporting on it. others will forget about it and live their lives.

There will be atrocities, horrors in the world every day. I don't see many people losing sleep over what is happening in South Ossettia atm, Nor in Darfur, Nor Somalia.

And then there is Zimbabwe where the average lifespan was just 34 years long a couple of years - chances are its dropped lower since as the plight of the people has worsened.

Add to that the problems in Iraq, the terrorism in Afghanistan, Pakistan and else where.

I do not think its possible to take in the plight of all the oppressed equally, or to sustain it over time. Feelings will ebb and flow. At some point, the mind will ask "What? Again?" - which is wrong, but I do not think it is right to hold it against anyone.

[quote=Urban.rust]Life is cheap. Especially to those who value the blood of one whose ethnicity does not match there's and below them. We see the effects of the Holocaust and the Nazi's reincarnated in the Jews of today, and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, in such similarity to that of the cleansing of the Jews before that you wonder how they (The Zions and anyone who supports, because anyone who agrees on any grounds with there motives is indeed a Jew/a Zion and no better than them) could disgrace the memories of their people by committing the same atrocities to another, how ironic and how sad.[/quote]

Easy... tiger!

British Jews criticise Gaza raids

Some 300 British Jews have signed a petition condemning Israel's military actions in the Gaza Strip.

The group, including dozens of well-known figures, says it has "watched with horror" Israel's response to the capture of a soldier.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5154838.stm

Prominent Jews call for open debate on Israel

· Pinter and Farhi among signatories to open letter

· Institutions accused of not representing community

A group of prominent British Jews will today declare independence from the country's Jewish establishment, arguing that it puts support for Israel above the human rights of Palestinians.

Independent Jewish Voices will publish an open letter on the Guardian's Comment is Free website calling for a freer debate about the Middle East within the Jewish community. Among the more than 130 signatories are Stephen Fry, Harold Pinter, Mike Leigh, Jenny Diski and Nicole Farhi, as well as leading academics such as Eric Hobsbawm and Susie Orbach.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/05/israel1

... and that was in response to previous Israeli actions.

More recently...

December 28, 2008

Jewish Voice for Peace joins millions around the world, including the 1,000 Israelis who protested in the streets of Tel Aviv this weekend, in condemning ongoing Israeli attacks on Gaza. We call for an immediate end to attacks on all civilians, whether Palestinian or Israeli.

Israel's slow strangulation of Gaza through blockade has caused widespread suffering to the 1.5 million people of Gaza due to lack of food, electricity, water treatment supplies and medical equipment. It is a violation of humanitarian law and has been widely condemned around the world.

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_1146.shtml

Statement on Gaza

IJV stands for the application of the principles of human rights and international law to the resolution of the Middle East conflict. These principles are being violated on a daily basis. Israeli citizens have the right to live free from the threat of rocket attacks, but these cannot justify Israel's actions.

The massive attack on Gaza has destroyed the lives of hundreds of Palestinians,and is creating an immense humanitarian crisis for a people under siege, a form of collective punishment illegal under international law.Such violent and inhumane conductwilldo nothing to reduce the risk to Israelis.

There can be no military solution. In furtherance of our declaration, we support the international calls for an immediate ceasefire, as a preliminary to concerted efforts by all parties to reach a negotiated settlement.

http://jewishvoices.squarespace.com/

Also see here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/series/independentjewishvoices

Urban.Rust

Can you write for the Revival Magazine please?

You: We've lost our sense of humanity, and that why as You put it, people can no longer "sustain interest" in other peoples anguish.

And yes, you can blame them for it, as decent and civilised human beings, are we not all in control of our own actions and emotions? (Or indeed lack of)

Beast: There may be a small selection of Jews who are apposed to the actions of the Israeli government, but ask them what there opinions are of 'Right to return' and I will justify what I have said. It is clear to me and should be to you to, that support comes in many shapes and forms-and who ever accepts Israel as a state also accepts the means they used to gain in.

You can appose something by the use of a pen or your tongue, you can be horrified if you will, but again signing a slip of paper in act of support is cowardice whereas acting or your support makes a vast difference.

If these respectable people in high positions care enough, they would also care enough to change the situation with us. I am by no means disrespecting those Jews who care enough to make in known, I simply say that you either are or you are not, people need to make distinctions-

You know if you accept that Hamas want the complete destruction of Israel, then you must also accept the opposite, that Israel want the complete destruction (of what is left) of Palestine.

Ya'qub: Thank you Bro, I'll consider it. I think I've used up all my energy today. Just one question, any age restrictions?

[quote=Urban.rust]You: We've lost our sense of humanity, and that why as You put it, people can no longer "sustain interest" in other peoples anguish.

And yes, you can blame them for it, as decent and civilised human beings, are we not all in control of our own actions and emotions? (Or indeed lack of)[/quote]

Maybe its just me then.

I am NOT blaming the Palestinians for their plight (Buit I do think the Muslim community as a whole is to blame for our plight). I am just saying that with day after day of the same old, I find it hard to concentrate.

In the Iraq War, the tabloids were able to pay attention for a remarkably long time, but a year or two down the line it was "another car bomb has gone off".

The most important part of the 'peace process' was that the blockade on the Rafah crossing be lifted, the crossing remained closed for the duration of the so called 'peace process', this technically nullified the agreement from the start. There is another point that 'Hamas smuggles weapons', whether they do or not, one thing's for sure, the zionists will continually keep stealing land and killing innocent civilians, however, what constitutes a 'innocent' civilian is highly debatable. Considering the democratically elected government of Hamas won the election by around 60% to 40, does this, if we are to be hypothetical and say that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, give the USA backed israelis the right to wipe out 60% of the population ?. As for the zionists, they are allowed access to the most advanced artillery and weapons provided by the USA at its disposal, amongst these include the lethal -short and long term- phospherus bombs, that the israeli's describe as 'pretty'!!. These disgusting commentsare signs that this is no 'retalliation', this is a wickedly planned and brutal attack. During the first week of air raids,they claimed a incursion will be 'full of suprises', now they're indiscriminately showering the area with chemical weapons , who will be able to stop these murderers when the 'world police' is firmly on their side, the very same hypocrite, who, When there was the Russian retalition on Georgia for its shelling on south ossettia, made it clear in no uncertain terms that Russia was the instigator and Georgia the 'victim', the situation there has many similarities to the situation in Palestine, yet the USA has made its stance clear, proving itself to being the murdering hypocrite it is. This is a systematic torture and the world is remaining silent, not least the coward leaders of the Arab world, complicate they are in this holocaust.

I don't want to hear of Hamas being a 'terrorist' organisation. Hamas, is the oppressed , displaced, manipulated victim. Fatah was once itself a 'terrorist organisation' and now they are , in the eyes of the USA, the only 'legitimate' group, Legitimate for them, not the Palestinians. The illegal state believes itself to be the 'only democracy' in the M.E, yet when there's an election, they'll bait blood of babies and children to gain power. There's only one terrorist in the region, and it ain't Hamas, Fatah nor Hezbollah.

@ BD Brother, can you in the future NOT edit the main post to a new message. it kind of makes all the future discussion pointless.

IO have reverted the changes back to the original version and changed the title to "Gaza Bombarded".

Please either post the update as a new comment or a new forum topic. Thanks.

@ BD Brother - hyperbole does not make what is happening more grave. On the other hand - it can cheapen the lives lost.

IMO it is better to not the current catastrophic events to other infamous catastrophes. The current events are grave in their own right.

[quote=Urban.rust]Beast: There may be a small selection of Jews who are apposed to the actions of the Israeli government, but ask them what there opinions are of 'Right to return' and I will justify what I have said. It is clear to me and should be to you to, that support comes in many shapes and forms-and who ever accepts Israel as a state also accepts the means they used to gain in.

You can appose something by the use of a pen or your tongue, you can be horrified if you will, but again signing a slip of paper in act of support is cowardice whereas acting or your support makes a vast difference.

If these respectable people in high positions care enough, they would also care enough to change the situation with us. I am by no means disrespecting those Jews who care enough to make in known, I simply say that you either are or you are not, people need to make distinctions-

You know if you accept that Hamas want the complete destruction of Israel, then you must also accept the opposite, that Israel want the complete destruction (of what is left) of Palestine. [/quote]

I have two broad areas of disagreement with you. I don't mean to say anything that may offend or upset you. I don't know how invested you are in this conflict and whether you have links to Palestine. So I will proceed carefully.

The first point is regarding your apparent encouragement that people should go to Palestine to fight. Your argument that signing petitions can only go so far is understandable. I can see why petitioning and writing would seem inconsequential and ineffective. If you want Muslims to go to Palestine to help then I agree. They should. If Muslims care about the situation they should go and use their skills as doctors and engineers, and they should work to rebuild Gaza. Muslims should send money. Money to build hospitals and clinics, schools and colleges. Money to feed the hungry and aid the destitute.

But to go and fight, actually join in with the shooting and the killing, isn't right. To go and fight keeps the cycle of violence going. It prolongs the suffering. It keeps peace further at bay and ever more difficult to reach. How long would we fight for? Would we keep going until we run out of bullets? Would we stop when the other side runs out of ammunition? The way things are if fighting continued to the end then the Israelis would be the ones that finish out on top. They have more weaponry. Or would we win as soon as we achieve martyrdom? Is the ultimate goal to be killed in battle? In this case aren't the people who are dying now martyrs? Haven't they "won"? If they have achieved victory then what are we so upset about?

We are upset at the suffering. Suffering that is caused by bombs, guns and bullets. The same bombs, guns and bullets we would use if we went to fight. We would be causing more suffering with our fighting not less. But our fighting would be to defend the Palestinians, right? We would be the ones fighting for a moral cause. But aren't the Israelis fighting to defend people as well? The Israelis are fighting to defend their civilians in towns like Sderot. They too claim moral superiority. But the Israelis are over-reacting and their response is disproportionate. They have killed a hundred times the number of Israelis that have been killed.

So, would we got to fight to even out the numbers? Spread the suffering out more evenly? In a way yes. We would want to do to them what they did to us. Then they would hit us back. We would respond similarly. They would attack us again and we would attack them. But up to what point? Martyrdom? See my paragraph before last.

The second point regards your apparent attitude towards Jews in general. I'll be quick with this one. Two of the world's most prominent critics of Israel are Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein. Both Jews. Both advocates of Palestinian rights. Even though Chomsky sees the need to compromikse on the right to return.

BTW I like the pictures in your blog. As intricate as the patterns are in the other pictures, my favourite is this one:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3184/3010883390_5289eb3bc9.jpg

First , when ObaMA CAME TO BE THE PRIMEMINISTER, everyone was overjoyed and all that;but now look at the fool?

He;s makin da Pakistani's and Indians fight.

all this with Gaza, what;'s next???????????????????????????????????????????/

And what makes him so insulted , when People call him a Muslim.

apparently, he feels"insulted"

Joie, mate, you don't seem to understand that the hospitals of Palestine are flooded with Palestinian civilians who are unfortunate victims of Israeli terrorism. Hamas fires rockets killing 4 Israelis, Israel reacts by firestorming Gaza, killing the over 500 civilians. If that's not genocide then what is?

Do you accept that this is inhumane? Do you accept that the more vicious Israel is on the civilians the more sympathy Hamas will get? I'm sorry, but I don't agree with genocide or terrorism, and that includes Israel's and Hamas' terrorism.

By the way, Obama isn't President yet, maybe when he becomes President he'll speak out, but if he doesn't do more than what Bush has done then there's a chance his Democratic Party will turn against him. I hope he confronts Israel about this, after all it's time for change. Can he do it? Yes he can! But will he?

Assallamu Allaikum,

I just despair at the issues in Palestine.

There is NO point talking to the Jews while they stand behind the stars and stripes, if there is any point at all. They are, as someone has already pointed out akin only to the Nazis there methods are and always have been Machiavelian. The people of Palestine have suffered for decades under these tyrannical animals.

The time for talking is evidently over. They will not be happy until the Palestinian people have left or died.

I hope Insh'Allah that ALL of the innocent Men, WOMEN and CHILDREN are martyred because EVERY day is a fight for Islam and survival in that country.

Wassallam.

Let me first just clarify that I am not as you presume anti-Semitic, but anti-Zionist.

There needs to be a distinction made between the two-I do not doubt that there are many Jews who are in support of the Palestinian people and their plight, and I do not deny that there may be some Jews who are indeed at this current time helping to aid the Palestinian people. The point I'm pressing is that any Jew who is happy to live within a state that lies on land illegally taken from its people, and for that matter any person regardless of their faith and ethnicity who also believes it, then they are no better then those who are currently making the lives of Palestinians miserable through continuing violence and massacre.

The Muslims of Palestine were living among the Jews in peace for long enough before the Zionists made an appearance, and I agree that those Jews who have lived within Palestine for generations have as much right to be there-considering its their homeland.

Again I'm fully aware that not every Jew succumbs to the views of the Zionists, My own Orthodox Jewish family are proof enough of that for me, and I daresay could also vouch on my behalf that I don't have an "apparent attitude towards Jews in general", although on the contrary I certainly do have an apparent attitude towards Zionists in specific.

That settled, I'll move onto your next point:

You mentioned that we should aid the Palestinians by use of our skills (as Doctors and engineers etc) I completely agree, although you lost me again instantly on your next point.

The Ideal is a hard thing to achieve, the ideal in this situation is practically impossible, and to even assume that we could resolve the problem in Palestine without the use of violence is ludicrous, it is obvious that Israel want the total obliteration of Palestine, and even more obvious that Hamas want the total obliteration of the state of Israel (and with good reason to), bearing that in mind, tell me how it would be possible to cease the problem?

Both sides will fight till the destruction of the other, maybe if people had acted sooner to resolve the situation we would have been able to create some peace at least, but after so many people have been murdered in cold blood, that’s virtually impossible now.

The Zionists of Israel do not want peace, and they do not want for the other to live with them side by side, each ruling his own, and you'd only have to glance at a map of Palestine to realise that.

Suffering, my dear Brother, is not caused by the guns and bullets, but by the power crazy individuals in charge of them.

And you could try, but I doubt you would succeed in increasing the suffering of the Palestinians beyond what they have already felt and suffered, they have experienced terrors beyond our own imagination.

You also forget that there are no civilians in the state of Israel, (obviously excluding children) everyone at the age of sixteen is expected to do military service, thus excluding them from the title of a civilian.

(How very canny of you, an attempt at irony I suppose-Maybe next time I aught to take a picture of my dresser when I have the 'Diary of Anne Frank' on it too, that might take your fancy just as much as Joanne Harris seems to have ;))

I apologise for insinuating that you were anti-Semitic.

[quote=Urban.rust]The Ideal is a hard thing to achieve, the ideal in this situation is practically impossible, and to even assume that we could resolve the problem in Palestine without the use of violence is ludicrous, it is obvious that Israel want the total obliteration of Palestine, and even more obvious that Hamas want the total obliteration of the state of Israel (and with good reason to), bearing that in mind, tell me how it would be possible to cease the problem?

…

Suffering, my dear Brother, is not caused by the guns and bullets, but by the power crazy individuals in charge of them.

And you could try, but I doubt you would succeed in increasing the suffering of the Palestinians beyond what they have already felt and suffered, they have experienced terrors beyond our own imagination.[/quote]

I suppose we can distil this exchange between us to this point about violence and suffering.

I think that increasing the level of violence and introducing new agents of violence to the area is a bad thing. It will increase the suffering and not bring the conflict to a conclusion. The Israelis and Palestinians may very well fight to the end. They may destroy each other. But what good will that serve. For the sake of achieving ever abstract notions of "victory" these people should go through more death and misery?

This may sound heartless, but the suffering that the Palestinians have already gone through does not mean they can't suffer more. There are still children who can be made orphans. Their are still women who can be made widows. But if we assume that they can't suffer any more then we are condemning them to ever more hardship and eternal hopelessness.

There must be another way. Exactly what that is, I don't know. But talking can't do as much harm as guns and bullets can.

I may be being namby pamby and airy fairy with all this "violence doesn't solve anything" delusion, but to me the problem here is that people are being violent to each other. If they were being namby pamby and airy fairy to each other there wouldn't be a problem.

[quote=Urban.rust](How very canny of you, an attempt at irony I suppose-Maybe next time I aught to take a picture of my dresser when I have the 'Diary of Anne Frank' on it too, that might take your fancy just as much as Joanne Harris seems to have ;)) [/quote]

Seriously, I didn't mean to be ironic or canny - I'm not that clever. I put that in to take the edge off the rest of my post and show that I'm not trying to be argumentative.

But I do like that picture. I didn't know who Joanne Harris was until I only just looked at the photo again and looked her up on Wikipedia. And I don't get the Anne Frank remark. I haven't read her diaries nor do have any plans on doing so.

Assallamu Allaikum,

Israel must stop hiding behind the USA and the USA must stop letting them. They must both face the truth and be as determined to be as honest as they have been ruthless and criminal.

The truth is that Israel is in illegal occupation and has carried out atrocity after atrocity and the U.S. has ALLOWED it to happen.

Wassallam.

Salam

Just to be fair...

On one hand, Hamas needs to end the seige of their citizens.

No nation would tolerate its people being starved every day.

On the other hand, Israel needs to protect their citizens.

No nation would tolerate its people being rocketed every day.

Omrow

Omrow, I can't fault you on your desire to present a rational neutral view and in fact, kudos.

**********************************************

More generally:

[quote="Someone on 7cgen"]If we look at it from a humanitarian point of view, the most important thing is putting an end to the loss of innocent lives, an end to the spilling of women and childrens blood. Off course we as Muslims will not be contempt at Israel ending the massacre, however, this saves lives whilst buying us time.

We Muslims will never be contempt until the liberation of Muslim land, restoration of Muslim dignity and establishment of justice in the land. We know Israel is the root of the problem, but we are not in a position to provide an immediate resolution overnight. We can only work towards it - but in the mean time we need to take every possible measure to prevent the further loss of lives in Palestine.[/quote]

Here in a nutshell is Israel's problem. While facing and indeed agreeing with the world's humanitarian concerns, Israel will find that any mercy or goodwill it shows is a weakness to be exploited. Not all Palestinians will feel that way, let alone all Muslims, but Hamas does, and so do many of the people most vicious in their rhetoric on sites such as this. The poster I cited goes on to say, without a hint of irony:

[quote]The blood of a believer is far more precious in than any of our holy sites![/quote]

For now at least Israel will be looking to halt fighting so long as the rocket attacks do not resume. And I'm pleased to note Israel has implemented a 4 hour daily ceasefire (for its part) to let supplies through to Gaza.

Finally a question: Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Qur'an. At what point did Mohammed's ascension become associated with Jerusalem?