UK Fatwa to Call Bombers Unbelievers, If Proved Muslims

I think if it were a fatwa far less Muslim youth would be prey to recruiters and sympathisers and sly bastards.

100I think if it were a fatwa far less Muslim youth would be prey to recruiters and sympathisers and sly bastards.

I disagree. It may have the opposite effect.

politically correct scholars offering a dubious fatwa will not confirm anything apart from the fact that scholars can be bought.

It will lessen the strength of arguments against terrorist actions as the proponents will be politically maligned.

Consider in one of OBL's tapes pre 9/11, a strong image with impact was Shah Fahd (or prince Abdullah) of Saudi Arabia wearing a cross. He was given it by queen Elizabeth.

It may have been a sign of solidarity, but it drove people to join Al qaeda.

Then it ought to be supported by some non-politically correct scholars as well or more fool them! There are deceivers in your midst and you should say so.

100When then, it ought to be supported by some non-politically correct scholars as well or more fool them! There are deceivers in your midst and you should say so.

Basic Islamic tenet's:

Commit a haraam act, you are a sinner.

Deny the act is haraam; you are a disbeliever.

Therefore, no matter how bad the act is, you are a sinner. you cannot say the person is not muslim, until the individual denies its haraam.

By that very fact any one who claims if the bombers are muslims they no longer are is (IMO) lying.

The right way to go is to distance oneself from these acts, then teach the meanings of Islam. Let the person understand what is Islamic and what is not. Teach the Islamic punishment for terrorism.

Then work toward goals to avoid the anger in the individuals in the first place.

When I was at Uni I noticed the muslims who's views became in any way extreme were those who did not come from an Islamic background. Those who were taught about Islam would avoid the pitfalls; those who only came into contact with Islam at uni through the extreme elements would be more prone tp accepting their ideals.

Admin
Basic Islamic tenet's:

Commit a haraam act, you are a sinner.

Deny the act is haraam; you are a disbeliever.

Therefore, no matter how bad the act is, you are a sinner. you cannot say the person is not muslim, until the individual denies its haraam.

By that very fact any one who claims if the bombers are muslims they no longer are is (IMO) lying.

The bombers would say that what they did was not haraam. So it's OK to call them disbelievers.

Thats a very large assumption you are undertaking.

When Imam ABu Hanifa was asked wether Yazid (the man responsible for the murder for the Prophet's ﷺ grandson and family) was muslim, he adopted silence.

And statements declaring them sinners are also clarification. In fact that's clearer than saying in the absence of a fatwa that they cannot be Muslim when they say they are.

100And statements declaring them sinners are also clarification. In fact that's clearer than saying in the absence of a fatwa that they cannot be Muslim when they say they are.

Yes the 'fatwa' should call them sinners. Noone will have any beef with that. Its accurate, requires no assumptions and does not malign the mufti's in any way.

However they also need to launch an education drive with the fatwa, both for muslims and for non muslims.

'They'?

You telling 'em that?

100I think if it were a fatwa far less Muslim youth would be prey to recruiters and sympathisers and sly bastards.

Not really.

Young men are recruited because they are uncertain of their identity and easily lead. They may not even be aware of religious debate and scholarship.

The Achenese have faced hardship but they're not all becoming terrorists because traditional Islam is intact there and the Bali bomber crowd weren't able to make inroads there.

salaf,

Your last paragraph supports a fatwa, no?

100salaf,

Your last paragraph supports a fatwa, no?

It wouldn't make a difference either way.

Fatwas are only effective if you're aware of them and you respect the scholars giving them because ulimately they are just opinion.

The promenant Wahhabi Shaykh Bin Baz gave a fatwa strongly condemning terrorism and suicide bombings a long time before 9/11 and the terrorists just declared that he wasn't a muslim. If they're not willing to listen to him then I doubt they're gonna respect whoevers proposing this fatwa.

It's not at all about who terrorists listen to, it's everyone else.

100It's not at all about who terrorists listen to, it's everyone else.

I was refering to your point

100I think if it were a fatwa far less Muslim youth would be prey to recruiters and sympathisers and sly bastards.

In this sense a fatwa would be of no use. Kids who become terrorists aren't religiously connected anyway generaly. They're middle class muslims who have an identity crisis and then get drawn in by these qutbi salafi types. Before they became militant they wouldn't know what traditional scholars were saying and afterwards they wouldn't care because they believe only their group is right.

... and there's no fatwa saying otherwise.

100... and there's no fatwa saying otherwise.

And you accuse others of vagueness?

The only real purpose behind any 'fatwa' would be as a step of reassurance to others that there are good muslims.

However even this should not be needed.

I agree with what Salaf has wrote. I had not fully considered the issue before.

Admin

I agree with what Salaf has wrote. I had not fully considered the issue before.

In what sense?

salaf

Admin

I agree with what Salaf has wrote. I had not fully considered the issue before.

In what sense?

That the fatwas will have no impact until the individuals are made aware of the facts.

They also need to have respect for the source though, so you need people who they look up to to make the situation.

Previously I never considered they may not be aware.

Admin,

The only real purpose behind any 'fatwa' would be as a step of reassurance to others that there are good muslims.

However even this should not be needed.

I agree with what Salaf has wrote. I had not fully considered the issue before.

I see your logic. It made sense when you applied it yesterday, that your behaviour is not just for show. You have gotten hung up on it here. The fatwa is a real fatwa, not a show fatwa. Presently there isn't one as any kind of counter to what Salaf was talking about (which was what I meant, Salaf). You're right that I'm a non-Muslim and that doesn't look good but it wasn't my point. In any event what you wrote in the next post perplexes me. You just said you agreed with Salaf, who says a fatwa isn't effective and then you suggested a fatwa issued by someone respectable would be effective, if I understood.

I meant if a fatwa is issued it must be credible, and have credibe sources.

It may still not be a deterrent though.

Cool, because that's what I meant too. Plus if the fatwa is consistent with Islam, which nobody here is objecting to, it makes no sense not to pass it by way of legal clarification, and the suggestion is the time is now or overdue for taking a stand. I realise rereading the thread I shouldn't contribute further on this topic.

I think if such a fatwa was passed then it would drastically reduce the chance of other muslims following in their footsteps. I'm all for it.

I'm not saying this because then the muslims in Britain will have some heat taken off them.

Its just that I vehemently condemn their acts and do not see them as Muslims.

Btw... is such a fatwa ok to pass in Islam-doesn't there have to be a consensus between the scholars before it is passed?

chm1I think if such a fatwa was passed then it would drastically reduce the chance of other muslims following in their footsteps. I'm all for it.

I'm not saying this because then the muslims in Britain will have some heat taken off them.

Its just that I vehemently condemn their acts and do not see them as Muslims.

Btw... is such a fatwa ok to pass in Islam-doesn't there have to be a consensus between the scholars before it is passed?

I do not believe it would make any difference, apart from ease inter community relations.

Admin

chm1I think if such a fatwa was passed then it would drastically reduce the chance of other muslims following in their footsteps. I'm all for it.

I'm not saying this because then the muslims in Britain will have some heat taken off them.

Its just that I vehemently condemn their acts and do not see them as Muslims.

Btw... is such a fatwa ok to pass in Islam-doesn't there have to be a consensus between the scholars before it is passed?

I do not believe it would make any difference, apart from ease inter community relations.

You're completely right.

If they make takfir on Bin Baz then I doubt very much they're gonna care what some hanafi imams think.

Salaams

I don't agree with the fatwa. A muslim is always a muslim if you say the shahada.

100,
It might help terrorism but if the attack on Iraq and palestine stop then that will help a lot.

Wassalam

salaf

Admin

chm1I think if such a fatwa was passed then it would drastically reduce the chance of other muslims following in their footsteps. I'm all for it.

I'm not saying this because then the muslims in Britain will have some heat taken off them.

Its just that I vehemently condemn their acts and do not see them as Muslims.

Btw... is such a fatwa ok to pass in Islam-doesn't there have to be a consensus between the scholars before it is passed?

I do not believe it would make any difference, apart from ease inter community relations.

You're completely right.

If they make takfir on Bin Baz then I doubt very much they're gonna care what some hanafi imams think.

Bin Baz? was he that saudi one who made the dodgy fatwa allowing the Gulf war 1?

Or have I got it wrong?

Admin

Bin Baz? was he that saudi one who made the dodgy fatwa allowing the Gulf war 1?

Yeah he was the grand mufti of wahhabism for quite some time before he died in 2000.

Thats kind of the root of the wahhabi split.

I remember hearing an African American wahhabi say that in the 80s all the wahhabis in america were united and went to the same conferences. Then after Bin Baz gave that fatwa some of them began to think "hmmm maybe Sayyed Qutb was right after all"

It kind of seems that this fatwa has been passed.

But it says that the bombers cannot be considered martyrs, instead of saying that they cannot be considered Muslims.

Also the MCB doesn't appear to be referring to this as a 'fatwa' or even 'ruling', but as a 'declaration' and 'statement'.

In the name of Allah, the all-Merciful, the most Compassionate

A special meeting of imams (leaders) and ulama (scholars) held at the Islamic Cultural Centre, Regents Park, London on 15th July 2005 endorsed the following declaration:

Along with all Londoners and the people of Britain, we are deeply shocked and saddened by the bombing attacks of 7 July 2005 that caused the loss of at least 52 innocent lives, wounded hundreds and disrupted the peace and order of the civic and community life of the metropolis. We regard these acts as utterly criminal, totally reprehensible, and absolutely un-Islamic.

On behalf of our communities and congregations, we express heartfelt sorrow and extend condolences to the families and friends of the victims. We pray for the speedy recovery of the injured. We extend our sympathy to the entire British public, a nation to which we all belong by the Grace of God.

There can never be any excuse for taking an innocent life. The Qur’an clearly declares that killing an innocent person was tantamount to killing all mankind and likewise saving a single life was as if one had saved the life of all mankind. (The Qur’an, Al-Maidah 5: 32) This is both a principle and a command.

We are firmly of the view that these killings had absolutely no sanction in Islam, nor is there any justification whatsoever in our noble religion for such evil actions. It is our understanding that those who carried out the bombings in London should in no sense be regarded as martyrs.

It is incumbent upon all of us, Muslims and non-Muslims – to help the authorities with any information that may lead to the planners of last week’s atrocity being brought to justice. The pursuit of justice for the victims of last week’s attacks is an obligation under the faith of Islam.

Islam is the middle path and the Qur’an designates Muslims as the ummatan wasata – the middle community. Any form of extremism is to be utterly and completely rejected. What we need, therefore, in our troubled world, more than ever before is to stick to the middle and balanced way of Islam.

We need also to remind ourselves, young as well as old, that the solution to our problems and concerns lies in following and adhering to the noble discipline of Islam and to the way of the Prophet, peace be upon him, and not falling prey to a culture of conflict and discord. The social culture of Islam is based on the principle of inviting people towards good, courteously and wisely – with Hikmah and mawizah Hasana. (The Qur’an, Al-Nahal 16:125) The Prophet Muhammad, peace be on him, was sent as a mercy to mankind and that is the ideal and norm that we ought to be following all the time.

The tragedy of 7th July 2005 demands that all of us, both in public life and in civil and religious society, confront together the problems of Islamophobia, racism, unemployment, economic deprivation and social exclusion - factors that may be alienating some of our children and driving them towards the path of anger and desperation. Islam prohibits both anger and desperation. Anger and desperation are haram (forbidden) and may lead to some people being targeted by people with a sinister and violent agenda. There is, therefore, a great deal of positive work to be done together with everyone in our own and wider community in order to channel the energy and talent of our youth particularly into constructive avenues, serving God and society for the common good. The youth need understanding, not bashing.

We do naturally feel deeply for the sufferings, injustices and oppression the world over. Yet we also remind ourselves of the verse of the Qur’an, “O you who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity and let not abhorrence of any people make you swerve from justice. Deal justly, that is nearer to God-fearing. Fear Allah. Allah is aware of what you do.” (Al Maidah, 5: 8 )

We also call on the international community to work towards just and lasting peace settlements in the world’s areas of conflict and help eliminate the grievances that seem to nurture a spiral of violence. We also urge the media to refrain from character assassinations of our reputable scholars and denigration of the community.

We reiterate our resolve and commitment to work towards nurturing an identity that is true to its faith and its rights and responsibilities of British citizenship. Finally, we pray to God Almighty to bless all the people of the world with His Peace and Mercy. Wa akhiru da’wana ani-lhamdulillahi rabbil-alameen.

mcb.org.uk/15th July Ulama.doc

UK Muslims issue bombings fatwa

More than 500 British Muslim religious leaders and scholars have issued a fatwa in response to the London bombs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4694441.stm

wasalaam