Islam and the Secular West

Islam and the Secular West

In another thread I asked the question

[Indeed it would be interesting to know what your answer would be for solving the violence between people in Syria/Iraq or indeed the violence that is happening in Nigeria. Or for that matter how the people of planet earth can get along, be they Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist or indeed of no interest in religion whatsoever, but just want to live their lives in their own way?]

I received the reply

[it will end the similar way your country dealt with Hitler

people in past got along perfect despite religion when you Christians were killing Jews we Muslims allowed them to stay in Palestine when ottoman were ruling it, in  Andalusia were Jews lived happily, and in Afghanistan under Taliban Sikh were living in peace something your biased media didn’t mention the only people who failed to get along with others were Christians, under British empire you robbed Africa then Asia then America until your downfall started, you destroyed your own religion the true Christians orthodox and replaced it with your fake catholic religion:]

So I thought that I should put forward an article of my own to better explain my thoughts

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Why the West is Secular

When I was being brought up, it was common for Catholics and Protestants not to associate with each other; indeed it was common for violence to occur between Catholics and Protestants.  Mixed marriage was frowned on and Catholics and Protestants lived in separate areas. The dominant religious sect used to hold marches through the other sects area. Leading to sectarian [religious] fighting, with the police etc trying to maintain some sort of peace. But all this started to change after the two major wars.

People had to live together because of a shortage of housing, people had to work together because of a shortage of jobs. The Government had to govern in a secular manner because of a shortage of money and resources. This occurred throughout Europe due to the widespread devastation caused by the war, Politics and Religion was separated and a secular government was introduced, whilst still based on Christian values everyone had to be treated equally under the law.

Europe over the centuries had been witness to too many wars caused by religion. Indeed people used to harp back to religious conflicts. For example, In Ireland people used to talk about the Siege of Londonderry [1689] and the Battle of the Boyne [1690] James the second [Catholic] and William of Orange [Protestant] Even now Londonderry is semi-unofficially known as London/Derry to appease both sides in a conflict that was called the troubles.

The opposing sides whilst using religion as a cover, were in fact using it as a cover for their own aims, which was to gain political power over each other and within Ireland. [Is this not what ISIS etc is doing?] It took people with a considerable amount of courage and risk to themselves to oppose this sectarian [so called religious] fighting. Indeed some people had to leave Ireland and come to England and start a new life for their own safety. [Does this not sound familiar]

Now I have explained the background to why the west is governed in a secular manner, hopefully it will go some way to explain why it is wary of Islam with it’s theocratic form of government.

Muslims are ruled by Islam [religion] and governed by Sharia [law] in a Muslim dominated country all must accept this as there is no separation. But in a country were the Muslims are in a minority they must abide by the secular laws of that country, as indeed do the rest of the population.

But after saying that, some Muslim countries have a mix of laws independent of Sharia and appear to interpret Sharia to suit local circumstances.

Now I come to the original question in the other thread;

[It would be interesting to know what your answers would be for solving the violence between people in Syria/Iraq or indeed the violence that is happening in Nigeria. Or for that matter how the people of planet earth can get along, be they Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist or indeed of no interest in religion whatsoever, but just want to live their lives in their own way?]

The simple answer is, I do not know, a] if we [the west] get involved to try to protect people against ISIS. Be these people Muslim or Christian. We are told that we are being Imperialists. b] If we stand-back and do nothing, then we are condemned by letting innocent people come to harm. On the other hand c] If a coalition of Muslim countries and the west are involved, these countries are called, “lackeys of Western Imperialism. 

The problem of  Boko Haram ("Western education is forbidden"), as still to be faced by both the West [as ex colonial powers] we have been asked to aid the Nigerian Government. The Islamic World at large must take some kind of collective action. Or statement. Will they again condemn the west for aiding Nigeria as ex-Colonial Imperialists? Or will the Islamic World band together and aid the destruction and removal of Boko Haram for being un-Islamic in their actions?

As for the latter part of the question;

[Or for that matter how the people of planet earth can get along, be they Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist or indeed of no interest in religion whatsoever, but just want to live their lives in their own way?]

The Empires of the past are long gone, the British Empire, [along with other European Empires] started to decline from 1920 onwards and declined more rapidly from 1950 when most of the countries that formed the British Empire became Independent and had self-government. It is quite enlightening how each country have managed their independence over the past 60 years or so.

The world as become much smaller, much more dependant on world trade and major world conflicts between recognised states extremely unlikely, [much too expensive, both in treasure and people] they might rattle a few sabres but on the whole they will get along. G20, BRIC and World Trade Discussions in Davos to name but a few, will see to that.

No the biggest danger to the world is a small band of extremists, be the Political, or using Religion as a front for their own ends to do serious damage to a country and for that country to retaliate, manipulating the power of public opinion.

To end, manipulation of public opinion is something that Christians are fully aware of every Easter. Jesus was welcomed into Jerusalem [Palm Sunday] by the public. After taking radical action in the temple against the cosy cartel of Priests and money changers [Politics and Money = Power] The Priests [Politicians] managed to turn the public against Jesus. The rest as they say is history.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think you should take the replies by member muhammadalfatih as anything but his own views.

Others may agree with him.

Others may not agree with him.

My view is that it is often easier to practice Islam in the UK than many supposedly Muslim countries.

I would also suggest that the situation in the middle east and even Africa be separated from religion - most of the problems there are not religious but socio political.

Boko Haram, rebels in the ivory coast a decade ago and even those currently in the Central African Republic have all used the same means and practices but are from different faiths. This example can be extended back to the Rwandan genocide.

With Syria and Iraq, unfortunately there is a proxy war being fought between different countries and the local population are being used as pawns. Once again, which it is often covered in religious rhetoric, I would suggest that many of the issues are not religious but sociopolitical - and "the west" is not clean in its involvement.

Coming to the UK - I personally am of the view that Muslims can and are part of British society and can remain so and be productive as long as the environment is condusive for it to continue.

We do not need or want special treatment, just the ability to practice our faiths without being targetted or prejudiced against.

For this I do not think DC and his pack of wolves have played any positive role. There have been Muslims who have taken part in Tory politics thinking that they can play a positive role and have been burnt.

An example is Sayeeda Warsi - she is the most assimilated famous Muslim, pushed the tory line quite vigorously, but was still sidelined by people in the Tory party because they saw her as "other". She never had any real power, but the campaign against her was quite strong.

the "Trojan Horse" schools affair was in the same line mostly a hoax perpetrated by Michal Gove and his allies for political gains. You can't ask Muslims to participate in society and then reel in shock and horror when they do.

Park View academy in Birmingham was a failing school with its students leaving with poor grades. It was turned around by respecting the community that it was a part of and before OFSTED got politicised considered it an excellent school. There was no extremism involved in the school, but it got bulldozered by Michael Gove's politics last year.

Muslims are often being failed by the public education system and an attempt to fix this has lead to politics and paranoia of the Muslim community.

In the same way, France has problems - bigger problems - the Muslim community in France has been targetted for the last decade, since the arrivan of Sarkozy, where secularism was used as an excuse to clamp down on Muslims - banning headscarves, face veils etc. were suggested as means to create greater cooperation and integration.

But look behind the scenes and many Muslim women who had been proactive and productive in the French community, taking part in public life, part of school boards etc were systematically disenfranchised and marginalised.

The French have systematically attacked their immigrant communities and this has lead to Muslims either leaving (even if just to the UK), or becoming marginalised, isolated and often opened to extremism.

(On the issue of quoting, if you copy and paste a paragraph, please highlight it and then press the " button in the top row next to the X2 button. This should make it into a quote - it is then easier to tell what is your content and what is a quote)

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

Thanks for comments, i totaly agree with them.

(On the issue of quoting, if you copy and paste a paragraph, please highlight it and then press the " button in the top row next to the X2 button. This should make it into a quote - it is then easier to tell what is your content and what is a quote)

Thanks for the advice. 

 

...the biggest danger to the world is a small band of extremists, be the Political, or using Religion as a front for their own ends to do serious damage to a country and for that country to retaliate, manipulating the power of public opinion...

An Islamic principle forgotten by many is that if God wanted to create everyone identical, with identical features, families, tribes, colour faith, He (swt) would have.

Muslims conquered large parts of the world and by and large the locals were not forced to change their ways. This is not just for the "people of the book" as zoroastrians were not thrown out of Persia, nor even polytheistic religions out of India.

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

You wrote:
I don't think you should take the replies by member muhammadalfatih as anything but his own views.

Others may agree with him.

Others may not agree with him.

My view is that it is often easier to practice Islam in the UK than many supposedly Muslim countries.

I would also suggest that the situation in the middle east and even Africa be separated from religion - most of the problems there are not religious but socio political.

Boko Haram, rebels in the ivory coast a decade ago and even those currently in the Central African Republic have all used the same means and practices but are from different faiths. This example can be extended back to the Rwandan genocide.

With Syria and Iraq, unfortunately there is a proxy war being fought between different countries and the local population are being used as pawns. Once again, which it is often covered in religious rhetoric, I would suggest that many of the issues are not religious but sociopolitical - and "the west" is not clean in its involvement.

Coming to the UK - I personally am of the view that Muslims can and are part of British society and can remain so and be productive as long as the environment is condusive for it to continue.

We do not need or want special treatment, just the ability to practice our faiths without being targetted or prejudiced against.

For this I do not think DC and his pack of wolves have played any positive role. There have been Muslims who have taken part in Tory politics thinking that they can play a positive role and have been burnt.

An example is Sayeeda Warsi - she is the most assimilated famous Muslim, pushed the tory line quite vigorously, but was still sidelined by people in the Tory party because they saw her as "other". She never had any real power, but the campaign against her was quite strong.

the "Trojan Horse" schools affair was in the same line mostly a hoax perpetrated by Michal Gove and his allies for political gains. You can't ask Muslims to participate in society and then reel in shock and horror when they do.

Park View academy in Birmingham was a failing school with its students leaving with poor grades. It was turned around by respecting the community that it was a part of and before OFSTED got politicised considered it an excellent school. There was no extremism involved in the school, but it got bulldozered by Michael Gove's politics last year.

Muslims are often being failed by the public education system and an attempt to fix this has lead to politics and paranoia of the Muslim community.

In the same way, France has problems - bigger problems - the Muslim community in France has been targetted for the last decade, since the arrivan of Sarkozy, where secularism was used as an excuse to clamp down on Muslims - banning headscarves, face veils etc. were suggested as means to create greater cooperation and integration.

But look behind the scenes and many Muslim women who had been proactive and productive in the French community, taking part in public life, part of school boards etc were systematically disenfranchised and marginalised.

The French have systematically attacked their immigrant communities and this has lead to Muslims either leaving (even if just to the UK), or becoming marginalised, isolated and often opened to extremism.

(On the issue of quoting, if you copy and paste a paragraph, please highlight it and then press the " button in the top row next to the X2 button. This should make it into a quote - it is then easier to tell what is your content and what is a quote)

dont take my view or yous view 

 

if you want to take islam take it from quran and his messenger muhammad saw 

in regards to muslims living in the west:

Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2645

we muslims shouldnt even be living in kafir country and we can see why

as for kafir country being better then muslim, brother you needs to learn al wala al bara and his sheikh hamza yusuf needs to grow some backbone 

i dont have the time to say anything  else today but as usual it is typical to see sufis supportin kafirs with there views because they are united with them 

the western world is filth afterall the sign of judgement day is war will be witht he kafirs of europe the western world 

 

we come back to isis and boko harram, isis may be but boko harram without doubt is a batil group you dont have to be worried about them as:

“And say: ‘Truth (i.e. Islamic Monotheism or this Qur’aan or Jihaad against polytheists) has come and Baatil (falsehood, i.e. Satan or polytheism) has vanished. Surely, Baatil is ever bound to vanish’”

[al-Israa’ 17:81 – interpretation of the meaning] 

boko haram and if isis are they are both baatil group they will vanish over time 
 

catholics and protestant are both deviated christians so its not surprising  to see them ruin your country in the past

Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of God,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, the n wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God. al-Baqarah 2:120

 

 

in regards to muslims living in the west:

Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2645

we muslims shouldnt even be living in kafir country and we can see why

as for kafir country being better then muslim, brother you needs to learn al wala al bara and his sheikh hamza yusuf needs to grow some backbone 

i dont have the time to say anything  else today but as usual it is typical to see sufis supportin kafirs with there views because they are united with them 

the western world is filth afterall the sign of judgement day is war will be witht he kafirs of europe the western world 

Judging by your comments above, you appear  to be the sort of Muslim that the west think of, when they think of Muslims. For some reason you appear to have a real hatred for the west.?

When the Majority of Muslims just want to get along with their fellow men. I thank God that their are people within the Muslim Community that a] want to learn from Islam, but bring it up to date for a modern world, not the 14th century. Also b] that Muslims, as well as people of other faiths are reaching out to learn about each others cultures and faiths to enable us to get along better.

Remarks like

we muslims shouldnt even be living in kafir country and we can see why and the western world is filth afterall the sign of judgement day is war will be witht he kafirs of europe the western world 

Do not help in anyway.

For your interest, and others i suggest you look at the following links

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/project/53/dubai_initiative.html   The Dubai Initiative

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_School_of_Government  The Dubai School of Government

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/21479/islam_and_the_role_of_elites.html?breadcrumb=%2Fproject%2F53%2Fdubai_initiative  Islam and the role of the Elites.

The last one you can download in PDF and it gives a good potted history of Islam, its splitting into different sects after Muhammed died, The Political intrigues and its spread throughout the world. Also how Muslims are trying to see their faith in the 20th century living in the Global World along side people with different faiths or none.

You, muhammadalfatih might not want to read the links. As the saying goes, there is non so blind as do not wish to see. But i hope others will look at the links.

 

 

As i see it wrote:

in regards to muslims living in the west:

Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2645

we muslims shouldnt even be living in kafir country and we can see why

as for kafir country being better then muslim, brother you needs to learn al wala al bara and his sheikh hamza yusuf needs to grow some backbone 

i dont have the time to say anything  else today but as usual it is typical to see sufis supportin kafirs with there views because they are united with them 

the western world is filth afterall the sign of judgement day is war will be witht he kafirs of europe the western world 

Judging by your comments above, you appear  to be the sort of Muslim that the west think of, when they think of Muslims. For some reason you appear to have a real hatred for the west.?

When the Majority of Muslims just want to get along with their fellow men. I thank God that their are people within the Muslim Community that a] want to learn from Islam, but bring it up to date for a modern world, not the 14th century. Also b] that Muslims, as well as people of other faiths are reaching out to learn about each others cultures and faiths to enable us to get along better.

Remarks like

we muslims shouldnt even be living in kafir country and we can see why and the western world is filth afterall the sign of judgement day is war will be witht he kafirs of europe the western world 

Do not help in anyway.

For your interest, and others i suggest you look at the following links

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/project/53/dubai_initiative.html   The Dubai Initiative

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_School_of_Government  The Dubai School of Government

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/21479/islam_and_the_role_of_elites.html?breadcrumb=%2Fproject%2F53%2Fdubai_initiative  Islam and the role of the Elites.

The last one you can download in PDF and it gives a good potted history of Islam, its splitting into different sects after Muhammed died, The Political intrigues and its spread throughout the world. Also how Muslims are trying to see their faith in the 20th century living in the Global World along side people with different faiths or none.

You, muhammadalfatih might not want to read the links. As the saying goes, there is non so blind as do not wish to see. But i hope others will look at the links.

 

like a typical kafir you like to twist things 

the hadith says living in kafir countries so majority west is kafir, but their are muslim countries in west such as albania kosovo and others, so if muslim country their is nothing wrong

so i dont hate west i ahte kafir countries of west who are known for double standards

in christianity it says when jesus returns his rule will be as strict as a iron rod 

so either you follow this or you ahve double standard even with your religion this is where you christians fell because you ahve sold your religion for the riches of the world infact you were never true christians to begin with you were the deviants of chrstians roman catholic who destroyed the true christians orthodox you in the name of christianity have killed the amount of 2 continants america and australia the only religion to do so 

as for learning others culture religion i know your religion better then you we muslims are not afraid to read other religion cultures as when we do we find it fake so our iman/faith in our religion just grows stronger thanks to you in certaina areas 

so i will read your article to see what new things you have 

you ahve proven another verse of quran today with your statement a)

Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of God,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, the n wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God. al-Baqarah 2:120

we muslims are not sellouts like you christians are 

 

 

Having a quick google, it is suggested that there are various different scholarly opinions about it. I had not read the hadith about leaving before hand and I do not know what the schilarly opinion on it is.

The Shafi'i view is interesting according to the googling where if a Muslim can practice Islam in a non Muslim land, he should remain.

(The following is my thinking and philoophical mumbo jumbo that can be ignored)

It is also interesting that it is Muslim duty to carry out da'wah, which means not keeping ourselves to ourselves as that would not spread the message of Islam.

Islam is not a nationality or genetic so it is not transmitted through race and should one person not cherish the gift to him, it can be taken away, and God can guide other people and nations that may not have been born Muslims, even to replace those that were born Muslims but did not protect their faiths.

 

"For too long, we have been a passively tolerant society, saying to our citizens 'as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone'" - David Cameron, UK Prime Minister. 13 May 2015.

the hadith says living in kafir countries so majority west is kafir, but their are muslim countries in west such as albania kosovo and others, so if muslim country their is nothing wrong

So in your opinion, NATO bombing Serbs [who are Eastern Orthordox  Christians] in Yugoslavia to help protect Muslims in Kosova is alright. But to try to help Muslims in the Middle East being killed by fellow Muslims is wrong?

so either you follow this or you ahve double standard even with your religion this is where you christians fell because you ahve sold your religion for the riches of the world infact you were never true christians to begin with you were the deviants of chrstians roman catholic who destroyed the true christians orthodox you in the name of christianity have killed the amount of 2 continants america and australia the only religion to do so 

 I agree the west does not have a good track record, as you say 2 Continents America and Australia, you forgot to mention Africa. But this was done for Political and Commercial reasons, Religion had very little to do with it. Also the vast majority of people living in the west at that time [1700 to 1900] did not a] have much influence on those who ruled and b] their living standards were not too great either.

What you need to do is to try to seperate, Religion from Politics, Religion can act as a conscience for what people do, in the pursuit of Power, Commerce and Politics. But Power, Commerce and Politics is blind regarding Gender, Race and Religion. This is a lesson the majority of us should learn.

 

You wrote:
Having a quick google, it is suggested that there are various different scholarly opinions about it. I had not read the hadith about leaving before hand and I do not know what the schilarly opinion on it is.

The Shafi'i view is interesting according to the googling where if a Muslim can practice Islam in a non Muslim land, he should remain.

(The following is my thinking and philoophical mumbo jumbo that can be ignored)

It is also interesting that it is Muslim duty to carry out da'wah, which means not keeping ourselves to ourselves as that would not spread the message of Islam.

Islam is not a nationality or genetic so it is not transmitted through race and should one person not cherish the gift to him, it can be taken away, and God can guide other people and nations that may not have been born Muslims, even to replace those that were born Muslims but did not protect their faiths.